Pure BEV Dogma

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Drivetrain v Energy Source

I also think that the names are confusing. But I think the problem started with the Prius na dcontinued with all other so-called Hybrids. IMHO, they are simply NOT hybrids at all. If a car gets 100% of its energy from gasoline, then it is not a hybrid. The fact that it has an electric motor and battery to capture and reuse some of the kinetic energy from braking is simply a fuel-saving technology.

Hybrid is a reference to the drivetrain, not the "fuel tanks", with the default assumption being an internal combustion engine. HEV means "also has one or more electric motors in the drivetrain". A hybrid doesn't even have to have a traction battery.

 

[gregincal]

Hybrid is a reference to the drivetrain, not the "fuel tanks", with the default assumption being an internal combustion engine. HEV means "also has one or more electric motors in the drivetrain". A hybrid doesn't even have to have a traction battery.

Yes, and he's saying that using that terminology is confusing, which I agree. I think we are seeing more use of the term Plug-in vehicles as a generic term, which are then subdivided into hybrid plugin and pure electric. This focuses on the energy source, which is what the consumer cares about. Grouping together gasoline only hybrid drivetrain cars with plugin cars doesn't make any sense.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

I don't under this distinction. The Volt has a mode of operation in which the wheels are driven by (1) an electric motor (2) fed by electrons in a battery (3) that got there through a power outlet in a wall. It's a battery electric vehicle (BEV). Plain and simple. Whether it is a "pure BEV" or a "BEV only" it still is a BEV.

Look at it from another angle. For those of us who care about the goal of reducing our dependency on oil and reducing emissions, if tomorrow every ICE turned into a Volt would we be better off? Given the average driver drives less than 40 miles a day I'd say that would be a huge win. 99% of the way there.

 

[dsm363]

I don't under this distinction. The Volt has a mode of operation in which the wheels are driven by (1) an electric motor (2) fed by electrons in a battery (3) that got there through a power outlet in a wall. It's a battery electric vehicle (BEV). Plain and simple. Whether it is a "pure BEV" or a "BEV only" it still is a BEV.

Look at it from another angle. For those of us who care about the goal of reducing our dependency on oil and reducing emissions, if tomorrow every ICE turned into a Volt would we be better off? Given the average driver drives less than 40 miles a day I'd say that would be a huge win. 99% of the way there.

You are correct that the main goal of getting off of gas the Volt helps tremendously. 99% of drivers don't drive EV only 99% of the time I bet though. The gas engine can turn the wheels on the Volt in rare instances too so it isn't always driven by the battery. If you put gas in it I have a hard time calling it a BEV even if that's the way it functions a large majority of the time. A plug in hybrid is a better term. Either way if most drivers are driving on electricity then that is a good thing and it doesn't matter too much what we call it.

 

[qwk]

I don't under this distinction. The Volt has a mode of operation in which the wheels are driven by (1) an electric motor (2) fed by electrons in a battery (3) that got there through a power outlet in a wall. It's a battery electric vehicle (BEV). Plain and simple. Whether it is a "pure BEV" or a "BEV only" it still is a BEV.

Look at it from another angle. For those of us who care about the goal of reducing our dependency on oil and reducing emissions, if tomorrow every ICE turned into a Volt would we be better off? Given the average driver drives less than 40 miles a day I'd say that would be a huge win. 99% of the way there.

This kind of thinking clearly slows or stops infrastructure rollout, and postpones getting passenger vehicles entirely off of fossil fuels.
If cars like the Volt had at least 10kw charging capability, there would be no 30A public stations(which are nearly useless). The volt uses gasoline, so public infrastructure isn't even needed. Instead we would have something closer to 80A, like Tesla proposes.

Which is better?

scenario 1: 100 more years of plug in hybrids?

scenario 2: 5-10 more years of plug in hybrids, and then 90-95 years of pure EV's?

The current auto manufacturers with their plug-in hybrids do nothing more but prolong EV adoption. 40 miles a day average driving is nothing more than propaganda for the uninformed. Nearly 99% of the people I know drive way more than that in one day, especially on weekends.

 

[liuping]

The current auto manufacturers with their plug-in hybrids do nothing more but prolong EV adoption. 40 miles a day average driving is nothing more than propaganda for the uninformed. Nearly 99% of the people I know drive way more than that in one day, especially on weekends.

Most people do drive less than 40 miles a day on average. But by the definition of average, they have to be driving more on some days (frequently weekends)

The the Volt covers the average daily commute in pure EV mode, and makes it a good plugin hybrid for many people.

 

[dsm363]

Most people do drive less than 40 miles on an average work day at least. I thought the statistic was something like 80% but can't find it now.

I agree though that the Leaf and Volt starting off with 3.3kW-6.6kW chargers really hampered things but understand why they did it (lower cost although I'm not sure what the actual cost difference between at least a 10 kW and a 3.3 kW charger is).

 

[JRP3]

I don't under this distinction. The Volt has a mode of operation in which the wheels are driven by (1) an electric motor (2) fed by electrons in a battery (3) that got there through a power outlet in a wall. It's a battery electric vehicle (BEV). Plain and simple. Whether it is a "pure BEV" or a "BEV only" it still is a BEV.

You can't ignore the fact that it can also run entirely from gasoline, and that it always carries an ICE on board along with all related systems, and that in certain instances, such as cold weather, the ICE will turn on. As you say, it has one mode of operation using grid electricity, it also has another mode of operation using gasoline. That makes it a hybrid vehicle.

Look at it from another angle. For those of us who care about the goal of reducing our dependency on oil and reducing emissions, if tomorrow every ICE turned into a Volt would we be better off? Given the average driver drives less than 40 miles a day I'd say that would be a huge win. 99% of the way there.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion of terminology that properly describes the vehicle.

As to percentages, last I knew GM Volt statistics show around 70% of all Volt miles are electric, so a complete conversion to Volt's would not get us 99% of the way there.

 

[WarpedOne]

Plain and simple. Whether it is a "pure BEV" or a "BEV only" it still is a BEV.

Exactly the same as every ICE car produced since they started using electric motors to start the engine.
Every ICE car is capable of moving some short distance on battery power alone and all of those batteries can be charged over night.
Volt is yet another ICE, a bit more efficient.

In terms of BEV it is a ****** BEV.

 

[rolosrevenge]

there would be no 30A public stations(which are nearly useless).

I disagree with this. 30 A public stations are very useful in places like, hotel parking lots, large public parking lots near attractions (zoos, a large public market, a historic district), and large shared parking lots near office buildings. Any place you plan to spend 3 or more hours is fine with a 30 A charger, you can get 18 kWh there for a 3 hour charge which is very meaningful range. Also a lot of places you go and then spend at least 5 hours walking around. 30 A chargers are near useless when trying to do a long trip, unless they are where you are parking overnight, which is why I mentioned hotels.

 

[Doug_G]

30A isn't really enough for an overnight full charge at a hotel, especially since the voltage tends to be very low due to 3-phase supply. You really need 40A.

 

[qwk]

I disagree with this. 30 A public stations are very useful in places like, hotel parking lots, large public parking lots near attractions (zoos, a large public market, a historic district), and large shared parking lots near office buildings. Any place you plan to spend 3 or more hours is fine with a 30 A charger, you can get 18 kWh there for a 3 hour charge which is very meaningful range. Also a lot of places you go and then spend at least 5 hours walking around. 30 A chargers are near useless when trying to do a long trip, unless they are where you are parking overnight, which is why I mentioned hotels.

In over 19k miles of Model S driving, I have yet to charge anywhere except at home or work, unless I'm on a road trip. 30A on a road trip sucks. The Model S has more than enough range for daily needs. The only way I can see a 30 charger at places you describe being beneficial is when it's free, and one is a cheapskate. My time is certainly worth more than $1-2 an hour.

 

[dsm363]

30A isn't really enough for an overnight full charge at a hotel, especially since the voltage tends to be very low due to 3-phase supply. You really need 40A.

Yeah. I've run into that before. Got in really late at 11PM and had to leave with a full charge at 6AM to make trip easy and didn't quite get there at 208V 30A. Needed another 2 hours.

 

[JRP3]

Most people don't want an ev, ev's are only 1 percent in Cali. Volt sells like the tesla, though you'd never know it from the bashing here.

Actually you have that backwards. Volt owners want an EV so badly many of them claim they are driving one, and go to great lengths to avoid using the ICE. What they want is an EV with no compromises, meaning range and fueling similar to an ICE. The technology isn't quite there yet, especially in the Volt price range, but when it is I suspect most Volt and other plug in hybrid owners will quite happily get an EV.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

What they want is an EV with no compromises, meaning range and fueling similar to an ICE.

Or at least a car that doesn't require excessive compromise.

 

[Topspin]

Actually you have that backwards. Volt owners want an EV so badly many of them claim they are driving one, and go to great lengths to avoid using the ICE. What they want is an EV with no compromises, meaning range and fueling similar to an ICE. The technology isn't quite there yet, especially in the Volt price range, but when it is I suspect most Volt and other plug in hybrid owners will quite happily get an EV.

I must have been using hope on my first thousand miles with zero gas!
that was cute really

 

[dsm363]

GM Chevy Volt

I must have been using hope on my first thousand miles with zero gas!
that was cute really

Then a Nissan Leaf would give you double the electric range and a Model S 6-9 times the Volt's electric range. Mind=blown.

 

[Topspin]

Actually you have that backwards. Volt owners want an EV so badly many of them claim they are driving one, and go to great lengths to avoid using the ICE. What they want is an EV with no compromises, meaning range and fueling similar to an ICE. The technology isn't quite there yet, especially in the Volt price range, but when it is I suspect most Volt and other plug in hybrid owners will quite happily get an EV.

Or at least a car that doesn't require excessive compromise.

It doesn't blow my mind at all!
somebody said most people want an ev, I correctly pointed out only about 1 percent buy them.

 

[Chris TX]

Can we simmer down a little bit? I have both cars and enjoy them. They both have their purposes, and I happily plug both in at night. In the Volt, I'm still on the tank of gasoline from the dealership since March. It's used for a second car and squeezing miles out of the battery is kind of a fun game.

Enjoy the cars, enjoy the cost savings, enjoy the technology, etc. We're all of similar mindset.

And for the record, the Volt is an EV with a range extender. The main difference between the Volt and the i3REx is the Volt's generator (electric side) is used for driving the wheels when it's not generating. There is never a link between the ICE and the wheels. The REx in the i3 has a dedicated generator (lawn mower!)

 

[Topspin]

Can we simmer down a little bit? I have both cars and enjoy them. They both have their purposes, and I happily plug both in at night. In the Volt, I'm still on the tank of gasoline from the dealership since March. It's used for a second car and squeezing miles out of the battery is kind of a fun game.

Enjoy the cars, enjoy the cost savings, enjoy the technology, etc. We're all of similar mindset.

And for the record, the Volt is an EV with a range extender. The main difference between the Volt and the i3REx is the Volt's generator (electric side) is used for driving the wheels when it's not generating. There is never a link between the ICE and the wheels. The REx in the i3 has a dedicated generator (lawn mower!)

Thanks it's really same team, kinda childish to say volt is not an ev