Radar deleted on all new Model Y and Model 3. Is FSD worth it?

[everydaychris]

Well, yes, but I guess what I'm really asking is, do the May 2021 and forward builds have a better camera system than the ones built with radar? Are there other HW changes that we don't have?

I don't think so.
I think in the future, the cars with radar will just have radar in their vehicles with zero use. They are just helping their build line by not adding radar.

But I agree with the majority that the cameras constantly are unavailable due to the sun and various factors. It will be very interesting to see how things pan out

 

[DayTrippin]

Where I am currently at, most of the traffic is always going over 75 mph on the highways near me. If I am on one of my motorcycles, I normally set the cruise ti about 90 mph except on one bike where they stupidly limited it to 85 mph and with the speedo error it actually works out to 81 mph. So the 75 mph limit is immediately an issue for me on any of the interstates I currently drive.

As for Texas, may have to relocate there in a few months. So it becomes even more relevant as I can legally drive 80 mph on a lot of highway. Give Tesla's factory in Austin, they should have thought about this immediately. It isn't like they wouldn't have any local knowledge.

Think about the great Tesla ad you could make. "Hey, we build some of our cars in Texas but we crippled the feature set so badly you can't even use it on some of the highways near us..."

 

[Fourdoor]

Is it just the auto steer that is nerfed to 75 mph, or is the cruise control itself with manual steering also nerfed? Where I live, the speed limit is 75 and fast lane traffic is between 80 and 90 most of the time.

Keith

PS: I haven't picked up my MY (probably 3 months away)... when you are using AP, if you push the accelerator does it let you temporarily speed up, and then go back to your set speed when you let off the accelerator... or does it kick off AP?

 

[DaveORD]

@DayTrippin You could always up size your wheels, I wonder if a 22 inch would fit the MY? lol

For example a 255/45R22 would have a speed error that could make that work for you.
70 mph speedo would actually be 77.5 and
80 mph would be 88.6
so I guess 75 mph would actually be 83 MPH. j/k...

 

[WindPower]

Tesla should be more concerned about safety than saving money. Removing a hardware function (radar) with the hope that someday software improvements will compensate for the missing hardware is making the car less safe at a time when real people are doing the testing. They are gambling with drivers lives. As it is, I don’t trust my Y’s auto steer. Auto steer works fine on a clearly defined road in good traffic conditions. But move to an non-perfect condition and auto steer will simply stop working and the driver needs to be ready to take over. Its failed me twice in 6 months and luckily I had my hands on the wheel so I could take over.

In my opinion, Tesla should be throwing in the kitchen sink until they get auto steer working perfectly. Then they can start tweaking the hardware.

 

[DayTrippin]

@DaveORD - great idea in some ways. Might kill off some of the torque though due to the taller tires and that might impact the acceleration though. I like the thinking though.

 

[Altes]

Cost. Plain and simple.

No way it is 'safer' without radar. Nearly every day my camera's are blocked just due to the Sun shining on them.

Yep FSD has never worked and now is guaranteed to fail for the future

 

[DayTrippin]

Did anyone see this?

UPDATE 1-Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

Newer Tesla Model 3 and Model Y vehicles will no longer be labeled as having some advanced safety features after the automaker said it was removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) said Wednesday. The U.S...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[travwill]

Did anyone see this?

UPDATE 1-Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

Newer Tesla Model 3 and Model Y vehicles will no longer be labeled as having some advanced safety features after the automaker said it was removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) said Wednesday. The U.S...

finance.yahoo.com

Tesla must be desperate to save $ as their carbon credits expire. Without those and heck Bitcoin profit on their balance sheet last time they wouldn’t be profitable again.

 

[SilverSp33d3r]

Is it cost savings or supply constraint. Who knows. I highly doubt tesla has not extensively tested this “pure vision” in the real world. Obviously radar is great to have but when you have competing sensors that disagree with each other who do you trust?

 

[dogmodes]

Where I live, the speed limit is 75 and fast lane traffic is between 80 and 90 most of the time.

Keith

PS: I haven't picked up my MY (probably 3 months away)... when you are using AP, if you push the accelerator does it let you temporarily speed up, and then go back to your set speed when you let off the accelerator... or does it kick off AP?

For me I don’t like setting AP over 80ish. It really depends on traffic but I find myself being more leisurely on AP. I generally go for middle lanes and let it do its thing, if I want to drive then I’m not using AP.

Yes you can use the accelerator and AP stays engaged. Both for AP and Tacc. However if you go over a certain speed it will disable AP for the drive. I think it’s 91 or higher, only happened once so not sure. It just warns you that while gassing auto braking is disabled.

edit: it may be that it’s disabled if you’re 25+ over speed limit not really sure. But yes you can accelerate.

 

[socal_my]

Do we have an option to delay this software update until it's beta tested?

 

[LoganNolag]

Is it cost savings or supply constraint. Who knows. I highly doubt tesla has not extensively tested this “pure vision” in the real world. Obviously radar is great to have but when you have competing sensors that disagree with each other who do you trust?

I’m not sure why people keep bringing this up. All the sensors don’t have to agree. All that needs to be done is prioritize them. Rely on the cameras first but if they are obscured by weather, debris, damage etc. then use radar as a backup.

Redundancies are always a good idea especially when it comes to safety. Personally I would be infinitely more comfortable if the car had 360 cameras AND 360 radar.

The only real reasons I can think of for eliminating the radar is either due to supply chain issues or cost cutting. This is especially reinforced by the fact that the X and S are still getting radar for the time being.

This change won’t make me cancel my order for my Model Y mainly because autopilot etc. is not the primary reason I ordered one in the first place. In fact I feel like Tesla despite initially leading the pack when it came to safety features is now starting to lag behind. Even Toyota who is traditionally extremely conservative now includes many autopilot features for free on every car and even includes some FSD features like automatic parking on many others.

While basically every other company keeps adding new safety features and reducing costs for those features Tesla keeps increasing costs and removing them.

If not for the fact that Tesla basically makes the only viable electric cars sold in the US right now there is little chance I would have considered them based on features alone.

Tesla was already missing many basic things that many cheaper cars have like radar based BSM, cross traffic alert, HUDs, 360 parking cameras, etc. They now don’t even have rader adaptive cruise control.

That said I’m not an engineer so I maybe pure vision works as well as Tesla seems to think it can. Only time will tell.

 

[Tam]

Do we have an option to delay this software update until it's beta tested?

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: No.

If you have radar now and you don't want a new firmware to take it away from you, you can click to cancel the installation prompt and don't click on the "install" button on the screen. That would delay the installation prompt until you start your drive again and it hopes you will finally give in and click the "install" button.

However, since the goal is pure vision for the fleet, at the end of the transition, I suspect that Tesla will force install the pure vision firmware without prompting the installation window anymore. One day in the far future, when you start your drive, the screen would display the Release Note as evidence that it just did that without asking you!

 

[Tam]

....This is especially reinforced by the fact that the X and S are still getting radar for the time being...

Could this be a conspiracy theory that the elites S and X are exempt from being the pure vision testers so that peasants 3 and Y would happily do that job until all the bugs are worked out first?

So if consumers have a choice, should they be the elites S and X or peasants 3 and Y?

 

[DanDi58]

I don't understand why people don't get that a fully camera-based system is what Elon has said they feel will work best - for years he has said this. So eliminating the radar isn't a cost saving or constraint issue - it's because it doesn't fit in with the strategy! He has talked about this for years. Why is it so hard to understand? Geez Louise....

More info: Elon Musk updates Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta v9 timeline and FSD Subscription once again - Electrek

 

[LoganNolag]

I don't understand why people don't get that a fully camera-based system is what Elon has said they feel will work best - for years he has said this. So eliminating the radar isn't a cost saving or constraint issue - it's because it doesn't fit in with the strategy! He has talked about this for years. Why is it so hard to understand? Geez Louise....

More info: Elon Musk updates Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta v9 timeline and FSD Subscription once again - Electrek

I don’t think that’s what is bothering people. The issue is that they are removing proven hardware and replacing it with unproven software. I don’t think anyone would be concerned if they switched to vision only and proved that it worked before removing the radars completely.

 

[DayTrippin]

I don't understand why people don't get that a fully camera-based system is what Elon has said they feel will work best - for years he has said this. So eliminating the radar isn't a cost saving or constraint issue - it's because it doesn't fit in with the strategy! He has talked about this for years. Why is it so hard to understand? Geez Louise....

More info: Elon Musk updates Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta v9 timeline and FSD Subscription once again - Electrek

SO why not do this in a logical manner? Look at the context of this decision. Sure smells like a logistics problem that they are now trying to spin as in line with the future plan yet dumping out cars with gutted safety features that were the standard before.

I can see the backroom dialogue.
"Hey Elon, we can get all the radar units we need."
Elon -"No worries, just delete them all, save some money, keep jacking the price, and we'll spin it as all in alignment with my future "vision" ha, ha."
Bean counters reply -"Great answer Lord Elon! But the software isn't ready yet."
Elon replies "They are all beta testers anyway, nobody believes me 100% and I can always fall back on the 'Tesla Time' excuse for rolling out anything."
Butt sniffing C-suite members' reply "Good one Lord Elon. Full them once, shame on you. Full them repeatedly - shame on them. So much fun to watch too. Do you think we'll make our numbers for the quarter?"
Elon replies "What do you think? Nothing stopping us now and too late for that pesky Consumer Reports to raise a stink like they did about the Model 3 brakes. How dare they remove us from their recommended list when I know so much better than they do!!!"

 

[astrobill]

I have 25+ years experience in the aerospace industry (engineer/scientist). Removing radar from the vehicles is insane. This eliminates little cost but massively reduces reliability.

Having redundant sources of range data, especially in all-weather, is FAR more reliable. And we've already seen our Teslas' driver assistance features behave sketchily, with camera blockages being reported in rain all the time.

If the software stops using the radar in my current radar-equipped Model Y, I'm selling it and getting a Volvo XC40 Recharge all-electric or a Mustang Mach-E.

Can't stress enough how bad a move this was on Tesla's part.

 

[DanDi58]

SO why not do this in a logical manner? Look at the context of this decision. Sure smells like a logistics problem that they are now trying to spin as in line with the future plan yet dumping out cars with gutted safety features that were the standard before.

I can see the backroom dialogue.
"Hey Elon, we can get all the radar units we need."
Elon -"No worries, just delete them all, save some money, keep jacking the price, and we'll spin it as all in alignment with my future "vision" ha, ha."
Bean counters reply -"Great answer Lord Elon! But the software isn't ready yet."
Elon replies "They are all beta testers anyway, nobody believes me 100% and I can always fall back on the 'Tesla Time' excuse for rolling out anything."
Butt sniffing C-suite members' reply "Good one Lord Elon. Full them once, shame on you. Full them repeatedly - shame on them. So much fun to watch too. Do you think we'll make our numbers for the quarter?"
Elon replies "What do you think? Nothing stopping us now and too late for that pesky Consumer Reports to raise a stink like they did about the Model 3 brakes. How dare they remove us from their recommended list when I know so much better than they do!!!"

Hey, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Unlike a lot of folks here, apparently, I really have no clue on what's better. All I can assume is that Tesla, based on years of research and piles of real-world data, knows what they are doing here. The decision to remove the radar from the suite of tools isn't some snap decision to save money or reduce cost. Based on statements over the years, it's because it's part of their strategy for FSD. That's it. We won't know whether it's right or wrong for some time.