Range anxiety, winter performance and more concerns need help overcoming

[Edge]

Hi all,

I'm posting this in the Canada section because I feel my concerns over range anxiety are more hyper-specific to Canada than anywhere else. I currently live just north of Waterloo or ~40km from the Cambridge supercharger.

My concerns over range anxiety come from a few points:

• How harsh does our sometimes -40c winters actually impact range? I've seen plenty of tests where people go to -20 or so but none so far with our harsh winters
• I've read a lot from people in Ontario concerned about the lack of chademo adapters and their vehicles. What current adapters are currently available for Tesla's and what should I expect from those?
• How often are charging stations (either malls, superchargers, etc) actually busy enough that you can't find a spot? I worry that I'll find a spot and need a charge but then have to wait 20-30 minutes for one to open up and then spend another 30+ minutes charging. Not ideal.

In terms of what I'm looking at, I'm leaning heavily towards the long-range Model 3 AWD (which I'll also have winter tires on). Since there's a lot of backroads where I am, not having AWD really worries me. I've seen a lot of talk that Tesla's RWD traction is great in the winter with snows on, that also seems to be more isolated to people driving in cities, not country-road whiteouts. Can anyone speak to this?

Finally, I don't currently own my home, so I don't want to install the big powerful wall-mounted charging station that needs electrical work done. Instead, I think I'll need the NEMA 14-50. Again thinking about the winter, how quickly can I expect this to charge my vehicle at home? I imagine that while the garage isn't as cold as outside, it's not going to be overly warm either, so I imagine charging times are even slower than listed on the website.

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[xG35]

i am using a 28A 14-50, and i believe that does 30km/hr. Sufficient in both summer and winter, considering it starts just after 9PM and i usually use the car 6AM the day after.

Impact of range in winter depends on many factor, short drives hurt more than long drive. I have experienced as high as 40% in deep winter and a combination of all short drives. If you can charge at home, range anxiety goes away.. is like your cellphone, you leave home fully charged everyday anyways.

Rarely do i charge at malls on a day to day.

 

[richyrich]

Been running a 3LR in Ottawa since June. You asked a bunch of questions but I'll boil them down to:

Cold: Yes range drops with the cold but it's no secret and why I bought a LR to make sure I had capacity to absorb it. I do 50,000 per year so I have some heavy-driving days but still, it's basically not an issue - I charge at night, drive all day just like I did with a gasser. Occasionally I've upped my charge limit from 90% to 100% when I know it's going to be a really long day the next day.

Charging: I have never used the superchargers or any other third party charging in town, only on road trips to TO or MTL. I charge at home - unless you don't sleep you'll always have the 10-12 hours your car needs even if it's empty and you're on your 14-50.

Adaptors: I've never taken mine out of the bag but with them I think you can use the J-1772 chargers that most Chargepoint etc offer for Leafs etc. However see above - not sure I would ever do this except in some kind of emergency.

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

How harsh does our sometimes -40c winters actually impact range? I've seen plenty of tests where people go to -20 or so but none so far with our harsh winters

Someone from Calgary may have better user experience. Generally speaking for the past winter in the GTA, take your rated range and divide by two = toasty 21C to 23C cabin and heated seats. Does your commute require more than 225kms in total? What's your commute like? If there's a 240V 15A plug, 240V@12A (6-15 Adaptor) does a decent job at 11miles/hour (~17-18km/hour).

I've read a lot from people in Ontario concerned about the lack of chademo adapters and their vehicles. What current adapters are currently available for Tesla's and what should I expect from those?

There's a 3rd party Chademo for Model S and X, I imagine one for the 3 is in the works by third party companies. Most likely awaiting cULus approvals. Tesla UMC comes with J1772 adaptor for other L2 chargers. In EU, they're shipping with CSS. In China, they're shipping with the Chinese standard plug (don't remember off the top of my head).

How often are charging stations (either malls, superchargers, etc) actually busy enough that you can't find a spot? I worry that I'll find a spot and need a charge but then have to wait 20-30 minutes for one to open up and then spend another 30+ minutes charging. Not ideal.

In Canada, not often - if it ever happens you arrive at an SC and no spots can be found = ICE'd more likely as people like to prank Tesla owners because it's a "cool" thing to do. Urban areas tend to be busier. Personally, I charge at home and never had an issue with range even in winter. The few times I've used the SC, it's for a short 20min charge; enough to get me home safe.

In terms of what I'm looking at, I'm leaning heavily towards the long-range Model 3 AWD (which I'll also have winter tires on). Since there's a lot of backroads where I am, not having AWD really worries me. I've seen a lot of talk that Tesla's RWD traction is great in the winter with snows on, that also seems to be more isolated to people driving in cities, not country-road whiteouts. Can anyone speak to this?

I own a 3LR and drove a 3DLR for a month through January. AWD definitely gives you more turning control, but if the conditions are bad enough, it doesn't really matter. The 3LR handled deep snow brilliantly with a set of Nokians. The car is so well balanced, it doesn't matter if the drive train is in the back.

Finally, I don't currently own my home, so I don't want to install the big powerful wall-mounted charging station that needs electrical work done. Instead, I think I'll need the NEMA 14-50. Again thinking about the winter, how quickly can I expect this to charge my vehicle at home? I imagine that while the garage isn't as cold as outside, it's not going to be overly warm either, so I imagine charging times are even slower than listed on the website.

NEMA 14-50 with the UMC charger will deliver 32A = 47 to 50km per hour. Overnight, it tops up my daily 120km driven (~250km battery) commute perfectly. Even when I get home late at 2AM. It will charge up the pack with 200kms battery worth to let me start the next day with 400km of "summer" range. So for this instance, I'll have ~200kms for the day. More than enough for a daily commute.​

 

[ewoodrick]

The 14-50 is generally more than needed for most people, except those with really long commutes that don't get home until late at night.
Super chargers are generally, not too bad about getting blocked, most aren't that busy, unless you are in California. Generally, you probably rarely use the Superchargers nearest you, especially if charging at home, because it is easier to go home than to sit at the Supercharger. The Superchargers that you will use are often at 150km and beyond, this that you are using when travelling.

Last time I used a Supercharger was on a 400 mi trip.

J-1772 plugs are a lot more problematic than Superchargers. First, they often are not maintained well, many installed by private companies that may not care that much. Those that are installed by networks can be expensive, and again, not well maintained. If the plugs are installed in bad places, they can get ICE'd quickly. I've got a clinic up the street that installed then tight next to the front door. I'm expecting them to be rarely available. But the hospital across the street has them far out in the parking lot, less likely to get ICE'd (but a couple of Doctors do seem to like to monopolize them).

In Winter, just assume 30% loss in range. It can be seen on the Energy usage graphs that are in the car. The battery indicator is badly unuseful, especially in the winter.

The Model 3 does not support CHAdeMO adapters in North America, so, for now, you don't have to worry about if CHAdeMO stations are available.

As to charging times in the garage, it shouldn't be noticeable. A relatively long commute would need around 4 hours of 14-50 charging. Plug in at 6PM when you get home, and life will be good well before 6AM.

 

[bpjod]

I live near Edmonton currently. I've also lived 4 years in Waterloo (early '90s), so I know what your winters are (were?) like. You do tend to get a lot more freezing rain than us and while we can get a few heavy dumps of snow, you tend to get more of them in a winter. We however tend to get much colder, especially the night-time lows.

I've driven a lot this winter with my LR RWD M3. It has been a great car. I never drive ANY vehicle without winter tires, that's just dumb where I live. I've mounted Nokian Hakka R3s on my M3 and they're great. The RWD handles amazingly well in the snow. The only 2 concerns I would have are: 1. too deep of snow (you'd have the same problems in the AWD version); and 2. trying to start on an iced incline. Neither has been a problem for me this year. Of course the AWD would help get you started from a standstill on ice even better, but I'm not sure it would add much else in winter. I have no regrets with the RWD. I've also driven Calgary to Edmonton on Hwy 2 in heavy snowstorms at night with the ditches littered with cars and trucks - no problem with my car.

For winter range, my worst case scenario is a cold soaked battery, car fully loaded with 4 people and gear and a roof box full of downhill skiing gear. Driving 120 km/h up into the Canadian Rockies in -28C temps. Under those conditions my 3 legs were 287, 308 and 284 Wh/km. [EDIT: we've also got the cabin at a comfortable 21-22C and seat warmers on. We've never compromised on cabin temperature to squeak out more range but I've heard it's a thing]. At 300 Wh/km your range is halved. This gives a max range of 250 km, but since at those temps you want to leave a generous reserve, and the charging is slow beyond 90%, you're really going to only use the 90% to 20% portion of your battery. That then leaves you with 175 km between Supercharging stops. This does work. I would have also done better with no roof box and by driving slower. For my lifestyle I wouldn't want any shorter range though.

My only winter concern is how slow charging is with a cold-soaked battery. I've been stuck charging at less than 20 kW - that can take hours to accomplish what is usually done in 20 minutes at a Supercharger. However, Tesla has announced preconditioning the battery when driving to a Supercharger in a future update (announced with the V3 Superchargers) so hopefully that will address my one concern with winter driving.

Otherwise the car is a dream to drive in winter. Quick to warm, hottest (and fastest) seat warmers I've ever encountered, fully charged every morning, can warm it in a closed garage using shore power, no filling at a gas station in the freezing wind, can start pre-warming from anywhere in the world with cell coverage (I've started warming it from a plane while taxiing to the terminal - toasty car when I finally get my bags and get out to the car); and more!

 

[Edge]

Thanks for the input everyone. Just so I can follow, what does ICE mean when referenced above? I've seen it a bunch but not sure what it stands for.

I guess I'm back to my dilemma around RWD vs AWD and how much of a difference it's really going to make considering I'll always have snows on my car.

Related to the points about being able to charge at home and range being effectively halved, doesn't the cost of charging at home kind of counteract the benefit of having the Tesla to begin with? Sounds like that'd be quite expensive, even charging off-peak.

 

[Lon12]

ICE= Internal Combustion Engine
I had RWD and now have AWD. Both work well with winters but AWD lets you still enjoy that amazing acceleration better on snow.
Cost of electricity should still be at least half of what you are paying for fuel if not 1/4 depending on your rates.
The benefit of a Tesla is that you are driving a TESLA. Nothing else compares....

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

Thanks for the input everyone. Just so I can follow, what does ICE mean when referenced above? I've seen it a bunch but not sure what it stands for.

I guess I'm back to my dilemma around RWD vs AWD and how much of a difference it's really going to make considering I'll always have snows on my car.

Related to the points about being able to charge at home and range being effectively halved, doesn't the cost of charging at home kind of counteract the benefit of having the Tesla to begin with? Sounds like that'd be quite expensive, even charging off-peak.

Current personal data shows: eight month average = $2.48cents for every 100kms travelled.

Warmer 3/4 of the year = ~1/5th to 1/4th of 2018 Civic gas costs in electricity. Winter months = ~1/4th to 1/3rd of 2018 Civic gas cost in electricity.

Here's a link to my gdrive spread sheet. I started TeslaFi sub for fun to check my numbers. They're not too far off.

Model 3 kW Log

 

[Vawlkus]

Thanks for the input everyone. Just so I can follow, what does ICE mean when referenced above? I've seen it a bunch but not sure what it stands for.

I guess I'm back to my dilemma around RWD vs AWD and how much of a difference it's really going to make considering I'll always have snows on my car.

Related to the points about being able to charge at home and range being effectively halved, doesn't the cost of charging at home kind of counteract the benefit of having the Tesla to begin with? Sounds like that'd be quite expensive, even charging off-peak.

ICE’d is the way we refer to people that park gas cars in spots where chargers are stationed, effectively blocking them from use. Usually it’s done in ignorance, but there are some asshats out there that do it to be dicks.

AWD vs RWD is more a personal preference with winter tires on. It’s nice to have, but it’s not a must have. Bear in mind, I have it in my X and I love it.

Charging at home is both a convienience, and relatively affordable. Some chargers charge per use and nearly all of those charge more than what you’ll see on your bill at home. I don’t have a full data study done yet, but my charging costs me anywhere from $50 to $75 per month. That used to be my weekly gas bill.

 

[wayner]

@Edge - Paying for electricity with an EV is way cheaper than paying for gasoline - the average seems to be about 1/4 the price, which Vawlkus corroborates. Don't forget that you will almost always be charging overnight when electricity rates are cheapest.

Given that you live in Waterloo - where will you likely be travelling to when going longer distances? There is an SC in Cambridge and there is supposed to be one in K-W soon, but those are likely too close to be of use to you. If you are going to Toronto or points east you will have access to many SCs. There are fewer options if you are going west, but there is one in Woodstock, but that is also a bit close for you to want to use, at least on your way out as it is less than an hour away so you will still be nearly fully charged. There is one near Windsor that you may want to use. If you are going to Niagara you are well served by Burlington, Hamilton and Grimsby SCs.

 

[Techniques]

Having the model you are interested in, AWD, I can say that it has handled well throughout the winter. Regardless of RWD or AWD you'd do yourself a favor by getting winter tires.

Range hit in the cold has been like what other have mentioned above, but with the LR battery, and some form of charging at home, you will be fine. I charge at night only on weekends using a standard plug, but do have the luxury of L2 charging at work. If I didn't have charging at work, I would invest in a 14-50 connection at home.

I haven't ran into a situation where I needed to or couldn't charge when I'm out and about. If I do charge publicly it's more of a nice to try, not because I am in desperation. Download the EV charging apps, Plugshare, Charge Hub and Chargepoint. They will give you locations of local L2 chargers near you, some free as well.

Congrats on your purchase, or soon to be!

 

[Techniques]

Related to the points about being able to charge at home and range being effectively halved, doesn't the cost of charging at home kind of counteract the benefit of having the Tesla to begin with? Sounds like that'd be quite expensive, even charging off-peak.

Regarding the cost of charging at home counteracting, an unscientific example for me has been charting the Kms driven between fill-ups against the current cost of gas. When I compare that total fill-up cost to the cost of my monthly electricity bill, my electric bill has increased an average of $15 - $25 a month....but I am saving an average of $250 - $300 a month in gas...A MONTH!

Electricity is a beautiful thing.

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

Regarding the cost of charging at home counteracting, an unscientific example for me has been charting the Kms driven between fill-ups against the current cost of gas. When I compare that total fill-up cost to the cost of my monthly electricity bill, my electric bill has increased an average of $15 - $25 a month....but I am saving an average of $250 - $300 a month in gas...A MONTH!

Electricity is a beautiful thing.

That's actually the easiest way to track the difference. Kms driven vs cost of each type of fuel. Ball park and round up and ZEV still ahead until they bring in a road tax for EVs

 

[Edge]

Thanks again, everyone. I have a test drive booked in 2 weeks, so we'll see how that goes. Now to decide on a colour... leaning towards red or blue. Maybe even grey.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

• How harsh does our sometimes -40c winters actually impact range? I've seen plenty of tests where people go to -20 or so but none so far with our harsh winters

Finally, I don't currently own my home, so I don't want to install the big powerful wall-mounted charging station that needs electrical work done. Instead, I think I'll need the NEMA 14-50. Again thinking about the winter, how quickly can I expect this to charge my vehicle at home? I imagine that while the garage isn't as cold as outside, it's not going to be overly warm either, so I imagine charging times are even slower than listed on the website.

I have lived in Ontario since 1972 (and currently in Orangeville - colder than Waterloo) and I have never seen -40C. The coldest day(s) I have ever seen is at -32C, 2 years ago for 2-3 days. Otherwise the coldest stretches of the winter get perhaps to -25C for a week or so in January in our part of the country.

@5_+JqckQttqck talks about 50% range loss. That may be true for short trips, but after 20 minutes or so of driving, it drops to about 20-25% losses (if it's really cold, but not snowing). If you are going from Waterloo to Mississauga, you will benefit from a warmer battery on the last part of your trip.Overall, in 4 winters I go from 185 watts/KM in summer to 230 watts/KM in winter, so it's closer to 25% range loss on average.

THIS SHOULD BE REQUIRED READING for all new Canadian Tesla owners. It's an archived blog from @Doug_G who is one of the first Canadian Tesla owners,who lives in Ottawa:
Cold Weather Driving
Check it out; it answers a lot of questions.
*It is about a Model S, but it is still pertinent

On Charging: A NEMA 14-50 plug will get you 32 amps at 240 volts or about 40 KM an hour of charging once the battery warms up. So, overnight will easily top you up

 

[ben1628]

I got 50 KM/hour constantly on my 14-50 plug on a gauge 6 wire with 50 Amp breaker, 32 Amp.

 

[Leeclanual]

I plan on 25% extra energy usage when below freezing.

 

[duanra]

A great way to have a feel of it is to play with : abetterrouteplanner.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

I got 50 KM/hour constantly on my 14-50 plug on a gauge 6 wire with 50 Amp breaker, 32 Amp.

I apologize. I based mine on a Model S. You can only get 50 KM/HR with an HPWC or an*old* NEMA14-50 adapter (which I have) 40 amps @ 240 volt = 9600 watts. 9600/185(average watts/KM) = 51.9 KM/HR. The power is rarely at 240V so most say 50. The new adapters are rated at 32 amps = 7680 watts. 7680/185 = 41.5 KM/Hr, so most say 40.
The Model 3 uses a different "standard" watts per KM I think it's 150 (?) Then 7680/150 = 51.2

So, for a model 3 NEMA 14-50 expect 50 KM/HR