Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[AlanSubie4Life]

SR? LR? + ?
[EDIT] Just found out, you cant see the signature in the mobile, but its seen otherwise.

If you turn your phone to landscape mode on mobile, the signature will show up. At least on my phone it does.

 

[jjrandorin]

Also a significant fraction of people started over 100% (some started below, just like Model 3 owners), so interpreting this data is tricky (it calls into question how the data was gathered, and also how to interpret it even if the data was gathered well). Have to take into account the possibility that very few (or none) Model 3 owners started at over 100%, due to a change in how Tesla treats excess capacity and sets the starting point. I'm not saying I know how this was handled exactly, I'm just pointing out that this is a crucial point when making such comparisons. It makes a difference of potentially 3-4% in perceived capacity loss.



No, that projects to 288 miles, which is not particularly low, especially for that age and mileage (I'm assuming a 310 for the starting mileage here, for an AWD). It's a few miles more than my car (which is at 22k miles, and a similar age), and substantially better than someone I know with a 2018, and several here have reported values in the mid to high 270 range, which seems to be the bottom end of the typical distribution.

So no worries. A little less than 9% capacity loss. There are definitely people in your situation who see less capacity loss, but there are definitely those who see several % more. Seems like (very) roughly 3%-14% at that point should be the expectation, with a few outliers.

Definitely "battery lottery". For example. my 2018 (dec 2018) model 3 P with 26k miles shows 294-295 miles when charged to 100%. I consider this an excellent result, given that, although the car was delivered with supposedly 310 range, tesla later revised model 3s that were delivered with 20 inch rims to 299. So, I can say I am down from 310 to 294-295 or I can say I am down from 299 to 294-295 with that amount of miles. I have no idea what I started with, but I suspect i must have been on the "higher side".

I have done zero jumping through hoops, etc, I charge to 90% whenever my car is in my garage. The only difference now is, during covid, I charge it to 90% then move the slider down to the next click down, so that it wont re charge back to 90% every few days from losing a few miles.

Contrast that with my 2 powerwalls, which I have found out were not even their max capacity when installed (almost 1kWh down on install). I have 2 of them, and that should be 27kWh of storage, but mine only charge up to 21.6 after just one year of use. About 20% loss, and the warranty is similar (30% loss after 10 years of use). I am just hoping they (powerwalls) keep degrading at the rate they are, so I can get them replaced.

/shrug.. battery lottery.

 

[jyavenard]

Let us know when Tesla confirms your actual level of degradation.

They already have back in November when I submitted a fault and anyway the ODB adapter gives the same values as what Tesla is accessing.

Tesla is known to have replaced battery pack showing fault. They don't always wait for 30% degradation. Few people on these forums got theirs replaced before 20%. So degradation by itself isn't the whole criteria.
So the question becomes if the degradation is a matter of an underlying fault or just normal evolution of the lithium battery chemistry.

Seeing that you can't always tell the 2 apart, I believe it's worth raising a fuss and have Tesla look into it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

They already have back in November when I submitted a fault and anyway the ODB adapter gives the same values as what Tesla is accessing.

Yep, and your rated mileage of 451km tells you about 68.7kWh as well. (There's really no ambiguity at all on that number even though people like to talk about it being an estimate (which it is - but there is no other value that Tesla looks at that I'm aware of, other than the direct kWh number - which is the same number with different units).)

Definitely on the low side, but we've seen worse! I just tell people who are considering buying a Tesla to expect about 10-15% capacity loss over the first couple years. That's a good expectation - if it ends up being less, it's all positive, and there's nothing unreasonable about stating a 15% capacity loss should be expected (this is quite normal for EVs).

As long as it stops/slows after a couple years, and the car's range with this loss is factored into the purchasing decision (and the user understands what rated miles mean - specifically, that they're not a measure of distance you can travel), there's really no way to be disappointed or end up in a use scenario where you might have problems.

I figured I'd have 10% capacity loss when I purchased in 2018, but of course I hoped I would do better. Pretty close to that at the moment. Just the way it goes. It would be interesting to see range trajectories by manufacturer date as well as by mileage and age. There are a lot of reports from late 2018 of fairly substantial capacity loss. However, these may just be more vocal/active owners so there may be more reports.

Keep in mind that what we see on this thread are reports heavily influenced by selection bias. Few people (other than @KenC) chime in to talk about how they're still at 310 rated miles after two years.

 

[Candleflame]

Tesla won't care until it hit 30% in the 8 year 100k/120k miles warranty period anyways. So no real point in asking them.

Indeed hence im not.

 

[Candleflame]

This is true, and that level of degradation is exceedingly unlikely to actually occur. (IMHO)

Thats part of the panic. Everyone is scared they are gonna slowly further drop to like 25% and then it stays there lol.

Its actually interesting how many high milage 3s there are and how little blogs etc for battery degradation at i.e. 100k miles. For the s theres tons.

 

[Candleflame]

So, we know battery degradation is a natural and will happen whatever we do. We might be able to limit the amount of degradation for some of the factors in some cases but not all.
- Small cycles is good, deep cycles is worse. Keeping the cycles small will help.
- High current is worse and small is good. Supercharge when you need, and do not when you dont.
- High SOC wear more when the car is parked, Low is better. Dont charge to higher SOC than needed, and charge as late as possible. Dont fill it up and leave it for the weekend.
- High ambient temps is bad, low is good for storage. The combination high SOC and high ambient is extra bad, so try yo keep low SOC if possible when parked during hot season. As it looks from numeorus tests, this might be the most important factor.

If you need to charge to 100% daily, then do it. If you need to keep the car parked with high SOC, then do it. If you need to use big charging cycles, then do it. Both togheter with all these comes more battery wear than if not so do not expect the lowest degradation on your street.

I guess some have seen the low degradation chart for Model S/X. Looks really good. You see the average normalized red line and think,”Thats cool. I will be on that line too”.
But:
1) Its not the 2170-battery. Its not the same application, or the same BMS.
2) Its average. About half of the S/X guys will be below at each point.
3) Its normalized. The average is smoothed to make a soft bent curve. At some points this curve isnt drawn at the average point. Look at 0 to about 15.000km. The line seems to be below the average at some points.

Some of the S/X guys was at 85-90% between 0-60000km, so they experienced 10-15% degradation quite early.

If you have to go hard on the battery, like the ”If-statements” above on a regular basis, you most probably will not be above that line.
We know battery do degrade, we also know what cause it, and we know why.

View attachment 650321

I personally cant quite see that any factor makes any significant impact on battery degradation.
Battery quality/date seems to make the biggest difference.

The only thing we sort of know is that the old s85s used to degrade less (or at least displayed more range) when charged daily to day charge 92%. But this could just be that the S struggels to balance batteries at lower socs. Probably also the reason older S struggle to charge beyond 97 to 98% as they cant quiet get the cell imbalance low enough when there is voltage variation from an aging battery...

 

[Zcd1]

Thats part of the panic. Everyone is scared they are gonna slowly further drop to like 25% and then it stays there lol.

It certainly seems safe to assume that Tesla specified a warranty that would limit their exposure/liability. After all, why wouldn’t they?

As I’m sure you can tell, I don’t worry about this at all.

Even if that type of degradation somehow actually occurred, this would still be the most fun, most unique and most amazing car I’d ever owned...

 

[Candleflame]

It certainly seems safe to assume that Tesla specified a warranty that would limit their exposure/liability. After all, why wouldn’t they?

As I’m sure you can tell, I don’t worry about this at all.

Even if that type of degradation somehow actually occurred, this would still be the most fun, most unique and most amazing car I’d ever owned...

Im sure in the usa it doesnt matter but abroad its a different ballgame. Just drove 800km to get to the 350kw charger.

 

[Zcd1]

Im sure in the usa it doesnt matter but abroad its a different ballgame. Just drove 800km to get to the 350kw charger.

No, you drove 800 KM and there was a 350KW charger near your destination. You can’t even utilize that charger’s full capabilities, so positioning the trip as necessary for your life or an inconvenience of some kind is simply silly.

 

[MikeMcc]

I have 2019 M3 SR+ And on a full charge getting 208 mi. I am in the Northeast. I am curious, what everyone in my similar situation, is getting on a full charge? Thank you.

 

[Sagester]

I'm curious what everyone here thinks about the batter capacity changes that have occurred with my 2019 dual motor M3 with about 20k miles on it.

I typically charge at home to about 80% I used to get an estimate of around 250 miles with an 80 percent charge and now it's around 220.

That is an over 10 percent drop in capacity after less than 3 years, is this a bit excessive?

 

[jjrandorin]

I'm curious what everyone here thinks about the batter capacity changes that have occurred with my 2019 dual motor M3 with about 20k miles on it.

I typically charge at home to about 80% I used to get an estimate of around 250 miles with an 80 percent charge and now it's around 220.

That is an over 10 percent drop in capacity after less than 3 years, is this a bit excessive?

No

 

[Candleflame]

No, you drove 800 KM and there was a 350KW charger near your destination. You can’t even utilize that charger’s full capabilities, so positioning the trip as necessary for your life or an inconvenience of some kind is simply silly.

its a 350kw charger. whether you like it. model 3 can pull 195kw max there.

It is very necessary for my life. Unless you like a mix of 40 kw and 11 kw charging?

maybe just try and put yourself in our position?

 

[Zcd1]

its a 350kw charger. whether you like it. model 3 can pull 195kw max there.

It is very necessary for my life. Unless you like a mix of 40 kw and 11 kw charging?

maybe just try and put yourself in our position?

I completely understand your position.

You have limited fast charging options and you choose to fret over that and battery degradation rather than simply enjoying your car. And if you can’t do that (simply enjoy the car) I don’t understand why you own it in the first place. Life’s too short, and all that.

But whatever makes you happy (??) I guess...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

n the family we have 2 x 2019 M3's (12/2018+ 6/2019) - both AWD - both started with 279(90%) and 310 max and now the 90% (252 for car 1, 249 for car 2) is and 100% (280 car 1, 277 car 2). Approx 10-11% battery life loss. car 1 is at 35K miles and does more commuter highway miles and car 2 is at 20K and is mostly city driving small trips. Hopefully this levels off?

Answering in this thread instead. Yeah it probably will level off. Two more data points showing an apparent ~10% capacity loss is somewhat common.

 

[husky in LV]

I have 2019 M3 SR+ And on a full charge getting 208 mi. I am in the Northeast. I am curious, what everyone in my similar situation, is getting on a full charge? Thank you.

One more data point. I have a June 2019 SR+ with 10K miles. It charges to 212 at 100%. I am in Las Vegas, so high ambient temperatures in summer.

 

[sospechoso14]

So I got my model 3 a week ago. I love everything about it. There's only one thing that concerns me. He has to do with the range. So I bought the model 3 "long range", because they advertise up to 353 Miles range. My daily commute is 21 miles, half of those miles are on the freeway at 75 mph, the other half is in the city for about 55 mph, it takes me from 25-30 mins to get there. After Taking it to work for more than a week now, I have come to realize that my commute uses 20%-22% energy from my battery for my 42 miles commute. So based on my calculations my car has a range of 210 miles, but like I said I bought it thinking it will be closer to 350 miles. No I do keep in mind the part of my commute is on the freeway at a higher speed which uses more energy, but that's only half of my commute. So where are the other 140 miles? Is my car range normal? Has anyone had a similar commute? I'm just trying to get some more insight before calling Tesla and making a fool out of myself.

 

[AAKEE]

So based on my calculations my car has a range of 210 miles, but like I said I bought it thinking it will be closer to 350 miles. Has anyone had a similar commute? I'm just trying to get some more insight before calling Tesla and making a fool out of myself.

353 is the EPA range?
It includes the 4.5% buffer, so to begin with you only have 95.5% of the energy used to calculate the EPA range.
You probably use the heater/AC.
The EPA test is run without heating/AC, or at least at ambient temps making the need for heating/AC low.
The EPA test cycle use quite low average speeds, probably lower than your.
Also, the range will be shorter if you try to drive multiple drives on the same charge.
time between consumes battery.

 

[Candleflame]

i lost another 3km. urgh. hope it's just imbalance from my 1.1k km drive.