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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Hi All,

My 2021 M3 range has dropped from 262 @ 100% to 238, within 5 months of ownership. I don't drive with a lead foot, I only charge to 85%(charged to 100% once right before a road trip) and I plug in nightly at home with level II. Would you consider this normal and nothing of concern? I did schedule a mobile visit regarding range as well.

It’s not your driving habits or the miles that degrade your battery for the most part. Calendar aging, which happens even without any driving is what you see.

If you charge to 85% daily and not drive that long, your average charge during the time will be high. (How much do you drive a normal day, and what SOC do you have before you plug it in again?)

80% is around the SOC that causes the highest calendar aging. You can calculate with between 5 and 10% degradation from time if you are around 80% SOC over the day. I dont know you location* and the climate, but cold is good (5%) and hot climate is bad (10%).
Calendar aging reduces with the square root of time so afte the first year, you need three more years to double it. = First year is worst.

If you are interrested, I have written a lot about it in this forum, and we have had quite much discussion about calendar aging.

*)Edit: Ventura, like Los Angeles ? Quite hot climate, I guess you battery have averaged 25C despite these 5 months you had it is the coldest ones. The battery temperature will average higher than the ambient due to chargine(heats up), driving(heats up) and standing in the sun(heats up). Despite this you *should* not have lost more than about 5% yet, so it looks a bit high. Probably the BMS that estimate a bit low?
 
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No - two 50% depth of discharge cycles is not the same as one 100% discharge.

I disagree - there's a lot of high mileage Model 3s out there with very similar amounts of capacity loss when compared to lower mileage Model 3s of the same age.

Or similarly, KenC who posted up above is still reporting basically 100% capacity after 3 years / 31k miles. On the other hand, you are reporting 16% capacity loss with the same number of miles. Similar number of "cycles" due to driving, but obviously your car spent most of it's life at 30C while KenC's car has spent most of it's life at probably 10C on average - maybe less. Now it's impossible that KenC actually has 0% capacity loss, but low-mid single-digit capacity loss is likely.

The difference between the two cars is calendar aging influenced by temperature - not cycling.

doesnt matter. 1 cycle is always when youve used up 100% of capacity (whether in 2 50% discharges or 10% x 10 discharges). doesnt matter.
not every cycle does equal harm to the battery. but thats not what the car measures and thats not what a cycle is.
 
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It’s not your driving habits or the miles that degrade your battery for the most part. Calendar aging, which happens even without any driving is what you see.

If you charge to 85% daily and not drive that long, your average charge during the time will be high. (How much do you drive a normal day, and what SOC do you have before you plug it in again?)

80% is around the SOC that causes the highest calendar aging. You can calculate with between 5 and 10% degradation from time if you are around 80% SOC over the day. I dont know you location* and the climate, but cold is good (5%) and hot climate is bad (10%).
Calendar aging reduces with the square root of time so afte the first year, you need three more years to double it. = First year is worst.

If you are interrested, I have written a lot about it in this forum, and we have had quite much discussion about calendar aging.

*)Edit: Ventura, like Los Angeles ? Quite hot climate, I guess you battery have averaged 25C despite these 5 months you had it is the coldest ones. The battery temperature will average higher than the ambient due to chargine(heats up), driving(heats up) and standing in the sun(heats up). Despite this you *should* not have lost more than about 5% yet, so it looks a bit high. Probably the BMS that estimate a bit low?
I drive 30 miles round trip. Battery starts at 85% and I get home with about 69%(sentry uses 5% while I'm at work) and then charge back up to 85%. Rinse and repeat daily. I will reduce it down to 50-60 for my work week. The 100% range estimate seems to fluctuate between 238-242 miles. I live right in-between Santa Barbara and Los Angeles so climate is usually good but we are dealing with relatively cold weather currently.
 
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doesnt matter. 1 cycle is always when youve used up 100% of capacity (whether in 2 50% discharges or 10% x 10 discharges). doesnt matter.
not every cycle does equal harm to the battery. but thats not what the car measures and thats not what a cycle is.
The ”cycles” you see in SMT isnt the cars or Teslas estimate.
It is the SMT programmer that added those lines by dividing total charge/ NFP.

(Nothing wrong with that, it makes it easy for any user to se the approx EFC that the battery/car has done.)
 
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I drive 30 miles round trip. Battery starts at 85% and I get home with about 69%(sentry uses 5% while I'm at work) and then charge back up to 85%. Rinse and repeat daily. I will reduce it down to 50-60 for my work week. The 100% range estimate seems to fluctuate between 238-242 miles. I live right in-between Santa Barbara and Los Angeles so climate is usually good but we are dealing with relatively cold weather currently.
Do you charge asap or on schedule so it is ready just begofe leaving to work?
Leading question, really ;)

I have a daily (mo-fri) drive of 65mi, I use 55% as the charging target. I have a schedule set to charge during the late part of night, so the charging is done about one hour before I leave to work. I use the same charging level during weekends so it sits with about 55% during weekends minus the mostly smaller use during weekend days.

I havent really lost range on the screen, it still charges to 507 km which is the EPA range and the Nominal Full Pack still is about the same size as when the car was new.
I had a few weeks when the car was new with higher SOC set, when learning to understand consumption etc in cold weather. 80% a few days, then progressively lower until 55% was set.
I use 55% even the cold days up here(-30C or below).
For longer trips I am happy to SuC and charge to 100% before I leave home. About 16% SuC so far and about 10-15 full charges.
732E30BB-BB4C-4BD6-B8F6-0C39652E41E1.jpeg

(Some might get tired of seeing my straight line range for the hundred time :) )
 
Do you charge asap or on schedule so it is ready just begofe leaving to work?
Leading question, really ;)

I have a daily (mo-fri) drive of 65mi, I use 55% as the charging target. I have a schedule set to charge during the late part of night, so the charging is done about one hour before I leave to work. I use the same charging level during weekends so it sits with about 55% during weekends minus the mostly smaller use during weekend days.

I havent really lost range on the screen, it still charges to 507 km which is the EPA range and the Nominal Full Pack still is about the same size as when the car was new.
I had a few weeks when the car was new with higher SOC set, when learning to understand consumption etc in cold weather. 80% a few days, then progressively lower until 55% was set.
I use 55% even the cold days up here(-30C or below).
For longer trips I am happy to SuC and charge to 100% before I leave home. About 16% SuC so far and about 10-15 full charges.
View attachment 774033
(Some might get tired of seeing my straight line range for the hundred time :) )
I do let it charge immediately, but will switch to scheduled charging. I do precondition the battery prior to leaving for work.

Clearly you're doing something right, so I appreciate your feedback and info.
 
I can see where it would get lost. There's only one thread per two or three days saying almost exactly what you have, and they get shuffled into this 201 page thread very quickly :)

Its actually 2-3 threads per day on either range, or drain, pretty much every single day. Its either that, or the entire first 3 pages of this subforum would be overrun with these same separate threads asking the same question. An example of that is the model y battery subforum, whose mod does not feel as strongly about consolidating these as I do.
 
All research data tell us the same thing: Lithium batteries behave very predictable. Even if the cell capacity might differ slightly between batches, the behaviour is very predictable. You can review 10 or 15 sets of research reports of NCA battery tests, and you will see that the behaviour and degradation from time and cycles is more or less carbon copies. I actually have done that(read a lot of research), I started getting slightly interrested in the lithium battery world about 2006-2007.

For all research there is not really any exemptions that doesnt fit the very tight degradation curves. Within each research the variation between cells is extremely small and between research the variation is very small. The only thing that really differs is the conclusions. Some time you can see that the test data is following the same red line that all other research does, but the author did draw a conclusion that was wrong due to the fact that the test setup created holes in the findings. But if you take the data atn put it on top of another research report, you’ll see that the data is more or less carbon copies.

There is sometimes small deviations that is not important to us and that can be traced to different test setups. Despite this, we can see that the deviations is small.

This picture is from a research report of a 2170/21700 NCA cell of the type ”Manufacturer and cell model cannot be disclosed”.
One can suspect that it is a Panasonic NCA cell, as there isnt very many producers of NCA-chemistry. 256Wh/kg on the cell level.

This research report have a worse spoon form than most other NCA-tests, but in this case it actually is the 2170 cell, that we can guess is a Panasonic ncr21700. The reason for the spoon form is discussed in the report. Most other reports shows signs of the spoon form and that the worst SOC for calendar aging is around 75-80% but in most cases not this much. This report might show us how the 2170 behave including the worst point at 80%. It might look worse than real life, in that case depending on the test setup but as we can see or scent the same behaviour in more or less any other research report there probably is something to it.
( Link to the research report )
View attachment 772218

There is a common idea that Teslas advise ”above 90% only for trips” is due to the calendar aging killing the battery.
From all research reports we know that that is not really the case. There just isnt that much more calendar aging at SOC above 90%.
But we know from research that if you limit you most charging to 90%, the battery will hold up for the double amount of cycles. My (qualified) guess is that this fact is a important part of Teslas advice. Still, I wouldnt leave the car with 100% SOC. On the other hand, I wouldnt leave it with 80% either.

This research report test >250 NCA cells, of two different batches. https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1355829/file.pdf#page35
A long read(186 pages), but really good. The very small differences in capacity within a batch, capacity loss independent of batch is clearly discussed. There is a lot of data, among them data that show that the calendar aging is about the same for 60 to 100% SOC, and there also is data like this: We only have three points but we clearly can see that 75% is worse than 45 and 100%, or at lest close to the 100% SOC.
View attachment 772241


This report also show the spoon form:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...on-EV-Batteries.pdf?origin=publication_detail


It would be easy to show at least another 15 research reports that tell us the same, and if we go beyond NCA theres about 50 reports more, telling the same thing.


I think that it is not probable at all that all research show one thing, but when the same cells or closely related cells is put in a EV they start to behave different. So, the panasonic NCA cells in Tesla model 3 will follow this quite closely. If it was only one cell, we problablyt could see strange behavoiurs because of some minor defect in a few cases(despite researcxh finding the cells being very close). But for a complete pack, there shouldnt/couldnt be ”bad luck” for all 4416 cells. You could get a slightly less capacity to begin with, but the calendar and cyclic aging most probalbe follow the normal behaviour.
There might be differences in initial capacity due to different batches and maybe that one car has been standing with high SOC before delivery(I have seen show room cars with 97% that we can guess have been at 97% for extended time.)

Despite this the aging should be behaving the same, but the use differs. For me, the main suspect for unexpected differences is the BMS.
I still have a NFP of 80.5kWh, after 34K km and 14 months. Most M3P ’21 start around there. In real life my battery should have degraded by about 3% by now. It doesnt matter how I charge or ”calibrate” now, the NFP stays about 80.5kWh but this is most certain a BMS overestimate.

Theres a lot of Model 3 owners that are worried about the degradation and I think that it is a good idea to tell someone that charge daily to 80% and is worried about high degradation that 80% is about the worst SOC for calendar aging. Many of us can use a lower daily SOC, and many can use the ”charge just in time concep”.
The good thing is that for someone living in a colder climate, even 80% wont cause that much degradation as the temperature have a very high effect on the calendar aging, specially higher ambient temps. Still, even if 80% doesnt cause much degradation due to low ambient temps, it most probalby causes the highest calendar aging, end reducing the SOC will lessen the calendar aging.

I have 10pieces of Panasonic 2170 arriving soon for some long time tests etc, and I plan to do another order in a while, just to make sure they are from different batches. Time will tell.
Nice (re) review of data I believe you've already covered in previous posts. I also think that you make your point quite clearly. You (we) are dealing with physical-chemical properties which, generally, behave in a quite predictable way. Having said that, I do realize that there are many contributing or complicating factors which can influence this data, but not the trends as you rightly say. Interpretation of data/misleading data is fundamental there :cool:. By training, I'm a biologist (vaccine developer) but the data you show is quite beautiful compared to the complex stuff one has to deal with when developing a manufacturing process and the hurdles of clinical development for a vaccine. We end up having to use DOE (design of experiment) to make sense of the data. Bravo keep going, I certainly will manage my M3 LR battery (M48 E5CD, 75kW) as you suggest. Results fit quite nicely right now :)
 
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Its actually 2-3 threads per day on either range, or drain, pretty much every single day. Its either that, or the entire first 3 pages of this subforum would be overrun with these same separate threads asking the same question. An example of that is the model y battery subforum, whose mod does not feel as strongly about consolidating these as I do.
I was not intending to offend. I have no problem with consolidating them. I was trying to be charitable with my comment about 2-3 days.

Thank you for your efforts!
 
I was not intending to offend. I have no problem with consolidating them. I was trying to be charitable with my comment about 2-3 days.

Thank you for your efforts!
Sorry, lol I didnt mean to intimate that you were (I didnt take it that way at all). I was just making a general comment on why I do it, but yeah it did sound somewhat aggressive, which I didnt intend.
 
Thanks for that! My car is five months old but my projected maximum range is still increasing ! I’m up to 550 km (341.8 miles)
Interesting, your car seems to be the same as mine (I took delivery end Sept 2021). My full range hovers around 535-542 approx. I've not seen 550 KM. I saw somewhere that this model (E5CD) should give up to 580 KM. Anybody else seen that? I'm not convinced these values are significantly different in real driving terms!
 
Interesting, your car seems to be the same as mine (I took delivery end Sept 2021). My full range hovers around 535-542 approx. I've not seen 550 KM. I saw somewhere that this model (E5CD) should give up to 580 KM. Anybody else seen that? I'm not convinced these values are significantly different in real driving terms!
The 580 includes the buffer so it doesn’t show. I was getting from 541 to 546...using domestic plug....then last weekend I used a supercharger and my projected range went up to 550..and it stayed there or drops to 549.
So it really is only about the Battery Management Program resetting itself....I think
 
Interesting, your car seems to be the same as mine (I took delivery end Sept 2021). My full range hovers around 535-542 approx. I've not seen 550 KM. I saw somewhere that this model (E5CD) should give up to 580 KM. Anybody else seen that? I'm not convinced these values are significantly different in real driving terms!
The E5CD have a WLTP of 580km.
This has nothing to do with the range on the screen.
I think a 74.5kWh E5CD should give around 543km as most( 74500Wh /137Wh/km).
The ”constant” is 137Wh/km so it basically wont reach much more then 543km unless the Nominal full pack goes above the specified size). Maybe a few batteries show a higher value = more range?

For your car your battery seem to be close to the new value.
 
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The 580 includes the buffer so it doesn’t show. I was getting from 541 to 546...using domestic plug....then last weekend I used a supercharger and my projected range went up to 550..and it stayed there or drops to 549.
So it really is only about the Battery Management Program resetting itself....I think
The range you see on the car at full charge actually include the buffer!
The buffer is progressively hidden when the SOC decreases.

580km is WLTP and Tesla do never show any WLTP values.
 
The range you see on the car at full charge actually include the buffer!
The buffer is progressively hidden when the SOC decreases.

580km is WLTP and Tesla do never show any WLTP values.
Now I’m more confused than ever🥺.... I thought that the car will continue to run even when the gauge shows zero...so that the buffer below zero plus the 100% charge range (plus any buffer on top) will all equal (in a perfect world) 580 km
 
Ok...so are you are saying that the range shown (550km) is the EPA range? Or that it is Tesla’s range (based on 7500/137) and that Tesla uses WLTP for advertising but doesn’t believe it?
Isn't there a lot of history there? :) When I digitally signed my order in Nantes the Tesla website (as I remember) showed WLTP 614 KM. When my invoice arrived it featured that "famous" € 2 000 discount. it took a while (and this master forum + the French TMC posts) to realize that was because my allotted car was the LG 75 KW battery with the range we are discussing in the last few posts. No worries I was satisfied and used some of that discount to have the midnight grey colour. Also, in the end what counts surely is the 20-80/10-90% real world range, for me, more than enough even when its "cold" like right now. Note my "cold" in Loire Atlantique doesn't come close to AAKEE's 😊
 
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Isn't there a lot of history there? :) When I digitally signed my order in Nantes the Tesla website (as I remember) showed WLTP 614 KM. When my invoice arrived it featured that "famous" € 2 000 discount. it took a while (and this master forum + the French TMC posts) to realize that was because my allotted car was the LG 75 KW battery with the range we are discussing in the last few posts. No worries I was satisfied and used some of that discount to have the midnight grey colour. Also, in the end what counts surely is the 20-80/10-90% real world range, for me, more than enough even when its "cold" like right now. Note my "cold" in Loire Atlantique doesn't come close to AAKEE's 😊
That is EXACTLY my story....this was Aix-en-Provence...and it was €2000 plus early delivery...it coincided with a Chinese boycott on Chinese Teslas, so a huge amount of cars were suddenly available....the sales staff in Aix wouldn’t tell me anything about the battery and I was having to do all my own research (just like you). The staff kept denying everything until they finally said it was 580km but you could charge it to 100%. I challenged that but they insisted that all the cars had the LFP battery (and we all know that wasn’t true for the Long Range). Finally I asked the technical staff at the pick up center (which is separate from the sales office but still in Aix-en-Provence). And they said exactly the same thing!
So I accepted the car (I was desperate to get rid of my Volvo) and then I contacted the service center by email who confirmed it was not a LFP and don’t charge to 100%.
The whole buying experience was traumatic...a little honesty would have gone a long long way...
 
Ok...so are you are saying that the range shown (550km) is the EPA range? Or that it is Tesla’s range (based on 7500/137) and that Tesla uses WLTP for advertising but doesn’t believe it?
Well, ehh…if there had been a US version with that battery pack, it had been.
The rabge is based om the EPA range. In this case, the ”consumption” is.
So, the consumption or ”charging constant” is 137Wh/km I think. ( @AlanSubie4Life knows this better).
The US version with the panasonic 2170 had 77800kWh(or about), and the EPA-range was/is 353mi(568km). This gove us 77800/568= 137Wh/km.

The E5CD have about 74500Wh capacity.
74500/137= 543.8km.
I guess no max range value is set so a battery that the BMS calculates a bigger capacity for will show a higher range.

All car manufacturers is obliged to advertise the range according to WLTP when selling in EU.
But Tesla isnt a European car brand and the WLTP ranges is not very realistic, so if Tesla had shown the WLTP on the screen this had only been a source for more confusion.

Tesla show that EPA number on the screen but in real life it hasnt much to tdo with real rabge or real consumtion.
The energy screen show us the real range based on the actual consumption. This should be used instead, and it has bothing to do with either EPA or WLTP. It just show the consumption as it is.
 
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That is EXACTLY my story....this was Aix-en-Provence...and it was €2000 plus early delivery...it coincided with a Chinese boycott on Chinese Teslas, so a huge amount of cars were suddenly available....the sales staff in Aix…
Live in Aix?

I have been there a lot.
Training and courses at Mariagne Airport.
We decided early that Aix is better than Marseille. I really like Aix :)
Thats history now, changing career….

Well, Tesla doesnt really talk about battery sizes and capacity so in most cases the people in forum like this knows much more about a lot of technical stuff.
I think that in some times the staff try to help a little beyond Teslas official numbers/data and then it will depend how much the sellers really know.
As one thread here can state five different “facts” for the same car its probable that the Tesla seller that try to be a little extra helpful get the wrong numbers or facts.