Oil is a global market. The less demand, the less the world is dependent on production in the Middle East and Russia. That's less money we have to spend keeping the Strait of Hormuz open, etc.
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Reactions to Model X reveal event
- Thread starter MartinAustin
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We still import 23.1% of our oil from OPEC and 11.7% from the Middle East. While Canada has the largest share, Saudi Arabia has about 1/3rd the amount of Canada.
Company Level Imports
At this level of reliance, even though it isn't the majority, the U.S. economic security and the global security is still heavily dependent on what happens in the Middle East as well as Venezuela and Angola.
MrBoylan
Member
That was a pre-production car with clearly malfunctioning doors - note the manufacturer plates and its location (in the Tesla parking lot). The production vehicles don't need to be hand-closed at the end. During the test ride event, I saw the Falcon Wing Doors open and close hundreds of times without problems, sealing fully and effectively every time. And on stage, playing with Elon's car, the Falcon Wing Doors opened and closed smoothly except when people or objects were in the way, in which case they stopped as they should. Pressing the button again at that point returned the door to its previous position. One guy who had been taking full advantage of the open bar all evening even manually forced the FWD on Elon's car down and this appeared to have no effect on their successful operation.
But good luck with your quest to post FUD about the Model X... which is pretty much all you've been doing since you got here.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I see no need to "get over" rude comments such as this:
I much prefer to call out rudeness than to get over it or let it slide by. I also call BS on him buying a P90D. He's all talk.
Me too. You make your comments respectfully as most others here do here. Seashepherd, unfortunately, does not.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
I have no problem with dissenting opinion, but that's not what I consider comparing the X to an Aztec. Add that to his other comments, and it's pretty clear he's only here as a provocateur.
When and if he gets a P90D (for the record I don't believe he has any interest in doing so) I look forward to his forum contributions.
trialcritic
Member
It is interesting that there is so little competition for Tesla anytime soon. Leaving out brands like Bentley, the closest is Audi in 2019. Wonder what the reason is. After all, Ford took apart a Model S and claimed that they can put one together if they wish.
MrBoylan
Member
Consider the source. WSJ repeatedly knocks companies like Tesla that take advantage of government subsidies for alternative energy development and proliferation. They, like most publications, have a bias which comes out in many of their articles. And apparently that author in particular has a pretty clear agenda against environmental advancement and climate change theory (thanks, JohnSnow for the link). I'm not saying the article is completely wrong. I'm sure making rechargeable batteries has a significant environmental impact. But he's giving examples of battery longevity and range which do not apply to Tesla.
The Nissan Leaf battery pack does degrade relatively quickly: My brother's Leaf is down to about 70% of its original range after 50,000 miles, which is fairly typical. He can buy a brand new battery pack for $5K if he wants to, but for now, even the reduced range meets his needs. But the long term user studies on Tesla Model S show that a Tesla battery pack still retains about 94% of its range after 50,000 miles and loses about 1% of range per 10,000 miles after that (on average). So the sunk environmental cost of making the car and making the battery can be amortized over a much longer time period. Because of fewer moving parts, simpler overall design, an EV should typically have a much longer life expectancy than an ICE car. And as for the Tesla battery pack, when it does get down to 80% capacity (after 400,000 miles), the Tesla battery can be repurposed for home or commercial energy storage, and still get years and years of additional use. You can't say the same for the parts of an ICE car. The best you'll have after its 10-15 year life span (after you recycle the fossil fuel fluids and toxic lead acid battery) is a block of steel and plastic that you can hopefully reuse to build something else.
That's an interesting report, which I had not seen before. Thanks for sharing it. It's based on 2010 grid sources (45% coal vs. today's 39% coal) and it was written before the Model S was widely available, so it's not completely accurate any more. But it is interesting nonetheless. But, again, that report seems to be measuring gas cars as if each gallon of gas is magically created without expending any energy. That "40 MPG car" is really much worse when you consider how much energy it took just to make the gas. So it's really not an apples to apples comparison. If you're going to consider the energy sources needed to generate the electricity, then you have to consider the energy required to make the gasoline. You could say the energy (and emissions) cost of that oil refinement is a sunk cost, but the fact is that the more people choose EVs over ICEs, the less gas needs to be refined, so that sunk environmental cost would be much lower. Also, in that very same report, even with its dated information, things look pretty good for EVs:
"Nearly half (45 percent) of Americans live in BESTregions—where an EV has lower global warming emissionsthan a 50 mpg gasoline-powered vehicle, toppingeven the best gasoline hybrids on the market. Chargingan EV in the cleanest electricity regions, which include California,New York (excluding Long Island), the Pacific Northwest,and parts of Alaska, yields global warming emissions equivalentto a gasoline-powered vehicle achieving over 70 mpg."
So yeah, EVs aren't perfect, but for most people, at least here in the US, they're much better for the environment than even the cleanest, most efficient ICE car.
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I am actually kind of bummed that the Model X reveal did not smooth over much of the arguing and disruption in the forum over the past month. If anything, the tension has gotten worse, with people arguing over everything from seat configurations to the stock market price of TSLA.
Model 3 is going to be an apocalypse!
Having read about the experiences of people who attended the Model X reveal event though, I do not blame anyone for being angry and in a bad mood about the disorganization, lateness, and overcrowding. I have to say though that while Model X might not have been everything I expected, 2 days after the webcast I'm still impressed with the car, and I would buy one if I could afford it.
MrBoylan
Member
This is a cool tool. Hadn't seen that before. And it already has the Model X 90D and P90D in there. Where do you see actual MPG comparisons? When I do it for my zip code (in New York City), it says the Model X P90D will have a net output of 140g/mile of CO2 (including cost of power generation), as opposed to the "average new vehicle" with 480 grams of CO2 per mile.
BTW, I agreed with the rest of your post, too.
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This is a cool tool. Hadn't seen that before. And it already has the Model X 90D and P90D in there. Where do you see actual MPG comparisons? When I do it for my zip code (in New York City), it says the Model X P90D will have a net output of 140g/mile of CO2 (including cost of power generation), as opposed to the "average new vehicle" with 480 grams of CO2 per mile.
BTW, I agreed with the rest of your post, too.
After you put in your ZIP and select your car and click SEE YOUR RESULTS you are shown the results with a link at the bottom saying LEARN MORE. Click it. If you read through you will see that the CO2 load for the manufacture of gasoline is taken into account. You will also see that the assumption is that the gas car gets 23 mpg. From there it is a simple calculation to see what mileage car would equal the BEV you chose. For example, in Georgia you get 480 for the ICE and 250 for a P90D. Thus (480/250)*23=44 or an ICE getting 44 mpg has the same CO2 impact as a P90D. It's fun to try different ZIP codes. For example, if you use 14094 for the ZIP, then 250 goes down to 100 for the P90D and you get (480/100)*23=110. All I can say is God bless Niagara Falls.
brucet999
Active Member
Actually, the above statement is for the most part not true. Power companies like SoCal Edison that participate in net metering, limit capacity of a proposed solar array to the previous year's grid usage or, in the case of new construction, to a capacity based on average per square foot usage for houses in the area. There may be some small net overproduction sent to the Grid, but only by accident, not design.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
To get back on topic, I'm not sure I ever really posted my position on the reveal. So I'll do that now.
Admittedly, I had hoped to see more, but at the same time, I was not disappointed and am seriously considering getting in line for an X, even though I could get an S sooner.
Surprises:
1) Advanced cabin air filtration. Love it. I have to put up with a lot of highway stink where I live, and this would likely eliminate it completely.
2) Auto-present front doors. Don't really care at this point. Probably something I would always leave disabled to prevent door opening when I don't really want it to.
3) Front fascia / no nose cone. Not sure about it at first, but it grew on me quickly. I don't love it, but I do like it.
4) Ability of falcon wing doors to dynamically alter their opening arc as needed. Love it.
Worse Than Expected:
1) While I wouldn't call it bad, I would put the 2nd row seats here. I was hoping they would do at least 1 more cool thing than they do. I'm someone indifferent on the folding, but obviously this is a big deal for some folks.
2) Key fob. I thought they would come up with something better/cooler than what the S has, but to me looks like they just recycled the S fob. However, I consider this is petty thing.
3) Inverter / 120v outlet (doesn't appear to be one). Also a minor thing, but would have been nice if they would have included one.
Better Than Expected:
1) Falcon wing doors. Because of the way they can alter their opening arc as needed, and their ability to detect obstacles with the fancy new sensors. Love them. If their long term durability holds up, I would call these a slam dunk.
2) Range and aerodynamics. I think they did a great job here. I was expecting maybe 0.29 drag and maybe 230 miles range.
3) Safety. I knew it was a priority for Tesla in general, but I thought safety was going to slip a little bit on the X, either in side impact and/or rollover.
4) Sound System? I haven't experienced it, so I can't say, but I've been hearing good things about it. I thought it would be on par with Model S, but first reports suggest it may be improved.
As Expected:
1) Performance. I expected really great performance. Looks like they delivered.
2) Style/looks. I expected it to look good. And it does. I like the Model X embossing or whatever it is that you can see with the falcon wing doors up; looks pretty sharp.
3) Towing. I expected reasonable towing capability with at least some effort in coming up with an accessory hitch for skis and bikes. Pretty much on target there.
4) Windshield. This could have been a surprise if I hadn't been following development so closely. But since I had been, it was basically as expected. That said, I like it, with potential to eventually love it, but I need to experience it first.
5) Frunk. Wider than I expected, but not quite as deep as I thought it would be. I like it, but it's volume is basically what I thought it would be overall.
Admittedly, I had hoped to see more, but at the same time, I was not disappointed and am seriously considering getting in line for an X, even though I could get an S sooner.
Surprises:
1) Advanced cabin air filtration. Love it. I have to put up with a lot of highway stink where I live, and this would likely eliminate it completely.
2) Auto-present front doors. Don't really care at this point. Probably something I would always leave disabled to prevent door opening when I don't really want it to.
3) Front fascia / no nose cone. Not sure about it at first, but it grew on me quickly. I don't love it, but I do like it.
4) Ability of falcon wing doors to dynamically alter their opening arc as needed. Love it.
Worse Than Expected:
1) While I wouldn't call it bad, I would put the 2nd row seats here. I was hoping they would do at least 1 more cool thing than they do. I'm someone indifferent on the folding, but obviously this is a big deal for some folks.
2) Key fob. I thought they would come up with something better/cooler than what the S has, but to me looks like they just recycled the S fob. However, I consider this is petty thing.
3) Inverter / 120v outlet (doesn't appear to be one). Also a minor thing, but would have been nice if they would have included one.
Better Than Expected:
1) Falcon wing doors. Because of the way they can alter their opening arc as needed, and their ability to detect obstacles with the fancy new sensors. Love them. If their long term durability holds up, I would call these a slam dunk.
2) Range and aerodynamics. I think they did a great job here. I was expecting maybe 0.29 drag and maybe 230 miles range.
3) Safety. I knew it was a priority for Tesla in general, but I thought safety was going to slip a little bit on the X, either in side impact and/or rollover.
4) Sound System? I haven't experienced it, so I can't say, but I've been hearing good things about it. I thought it would be on par with Model S, but first reports suggest it may be improved.
As Expected:
1) Performance. I expected really great performance. Looks like they delivered.
2) Style/looks. I expected it to look good. And it does. I like the Model X embossing or whatever it is that you can see with the falcon wing doors up; looks pretty sharp.
3) Towing. I expected reasonable towing capability with at least some effort in coming up with an accessory hitch for skis and bikes. Pretty much on target there.
4) Windshield. This could have been a surprise if I hadn't been following development so closely. But since I had been, it was basically as expected. That said, I like it, with potential to eventually love it, but I need to experience it first.
5) Frunk. Wider than I expected, but not quite as deep as I thought it would be. I like it, but it's volume is basically what I thought it would be overall.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Yes, what a terrible thing to do. Imagine that. I'd rather people drive an ICE than drive an EV and pat themselves on the back for doing so. It's not the end result we care about, it's people who feel good about themselves. We need to put and end to that! I'm just sick over it. I'd rather my kids get asthma than put up with the hypocrisy and lies of those EV do-gooders!
Just because EVs are 40-95% better at limiting emissions, doesn't suddenly make them worthless for the environment. Humans wouldn't be running into anywhere near the current level of unnatural climate change if every car on the road was an EV.
There's natural forces out in the world that can limit CO2 emissions to a neutral level if we're all driving EVs and renewable tech advances even at its current pace for another 20-30 years or so. There isn't if we still drive ICEs.
No matter what you believe, each and every single EV buyer--even those in coal-ridden states--are improving the environment overall, and they are improving it substantially in urban areas (which results in huge cost savings for healthcare, smog cleanup, noise pollution, and heat pollution for AC costs). EVs now are a drop in a bucket but they will become exponentially more effective as more ICEs are replaced while simultaneously we keep moving toward cheaper, renewable energy.
And I also agree that, for now, EVs will never match any one's needs 100%. I plan on buying a Model 3 but I know there will be many aspects that I won't like, as I'd prefer something similar to a smart car or Fiat but with Tesla-like range and enhanced safety.
When other ICE manufacturers are playing catch-up, though, they're going to have a tough time matching the MX even when the battery and performance become equal. It's a really good car. If it doesn't match your needs, don't buy it.
