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Not sure what happened to wk057's posts in this thread, but his contributions here make me want to unjailbreak my iPhone.
sorry for my hijacking.. fear not, this post will probably disappear mysteriously.
@BTR_ftw, I applaud your good work here and I wish you the best of luck with this project. I would also urge you reach out privately to wk057 before he disappears because if you are to succeed in this project you will certainly need his help (or the help of someone with his skill set -- to say nothing of his screwples, or lackthereof.)
I would also ask that when you do reach the final stages of this Model S resurrection, and you start hacking away at the software and firmware that controls this "iPhone on wheels" that you stop short of giving your Model S capabilities it was not intended to have.
If I was uneasy with someone Supercharging from a salvage car and thought it wrong or unethical, I am flat out horrified that someone would hack their S85 into a P85. BTW there are hardware differences between an S85, but these probably have more to do with things like handling, and things like how fast the electric motor that powers the wheels are software/firmware controlled as wk057 has demonstrated. I suspect that without the proper hardware upgrades, things will wear much more quickly, but since I suspect these parts were built to last 30 or 40 years, having them wear out after 15 or 20 years b/c they are running outside of their intended specification has little practical importance, since most people do not keep their cars that long.
BTW, deep down, the hacker in me would *love* to know if a regular old 85 can be hacked into thinking it has "ludacris" mode, although the fact that there is someone letting these cars be "in the wild" is horrifying to me.
you obviously have the technical skill and experience to succeed in bringing your salvage model S back to life, and I hope you do succeed. I hope you take many happy road trips in your resurrected car. Personally, I believe Super Charging is a privilege for those who purchased a Tesla through supported means, and not a right of every Tesla owner. But I'm getting off track here. anyway, I hope that when the time comes to chose what your resurrected car is capable of, you act with restraint and stop short of just helping yourself to the best and the most, just b/c you can.
sorry for my hijacking.. fear not, this post will probably disappear mysteriously.
@BTR_ftw, I applaud your good work here and I wish you the best of luck with this project. I would also urge you reach out privately to wk057 before he disappears because if you are to succeed in this project you will certainly need his help (or the help of someone with his skill set -- to say nothing of his screwples, or lackthereof.)
I would also ask that when you do reach the final stages of this Model S resurrection, and you start hacking away at the software and firmware that controls this "iPhone on wheels" that you stop short of giving your Model S capabilities it was not intended to have.
If I was uneasy with someone Supercharging from a salvage car and thought it wrong or unethical, I am flat out horrified that someone would hack their S85 into a P85. BTW there are hardware differences between an S85, but these probably have more to do with things like handling, and things like how fast the electric motor that powers the wheels are software/firmware controlled as wk057 has demonstrated. I suspect that without the proper hardware upgrades, things will wear much more quickly, but since I suspect these parts were built to last 30 or 40 years, having them wear out after 15 or 20 years b/c they are running outside of their intended specification has little practical importance, since most people do not keep their cars that long.
BTW, deep down, the hacker in me would *love* to know if a regular old 85 can be hacked into thinking it has "ludacris" mode, although the fact that there is someone letting these cars be "in the wild" is horrifying to me.
you obviously have the technical skill and experience to succeed in bringing your salvage model S back to life, and I hope you do succeed. I hope you take many happy road trips in your resurrected car. Personally, I believe Super Charging is a privilege for those who purchased a Tesla through supported means, and not a right of every Tesla owner. But I'm getting off track here. anyway, I hope that when the time comes to chose what your resurrected car is capable of, you act with restraint and stop short of just helping yourself to the best and the most, just b/c you can.
I'm not sure you could since it wasn't ever something that Tesla supported. (Only the Ds have Insane/Ludicrous.) But if you did it would be very short lived as you would likely blow the non-ludicrous fuse the first time you used the extra power that ludicrous supplies. (This is a case where we know there is a hardware difference.)
Well, you can't hack it to do something it's not capable of. Right now BTR's car probably can't be hacked to do 0-60 in 3.9 weeks, let alone 3.9 seconds. He's got some work to do.
And a single motor or non-P D car doesn't have the hardware to do Ludicrous mode.There's debate on the S85/S60 vs P85 motors/inverters being different, but I've yet to see any evidence this is true, and it really doesn't make much sense to have done so from Tesla's perspective. Actually, if we learned one thing from the whole 691 HP debate, I'm pretty sure Tesla rates all of the motors the same. Additionally, the P85 and S85 don't have any other hardware differences that I'm aware of. The P85+ does, but the P85 does not.
If BTR decides he wants his S85 to be a P85 I'll be happy to help him flip that switch. If he wants it to supercharge, I'll help him with that one too. It's his car, which he owns, and he can do whatever he wants with it, or not. Completely up to him as the owner. Sorry Tesla, it's not your car. That's pretty much the end of that particular discussion.
Now, if Tesla's Superchargers, which they do own, do not want to charge his car, that's entirely fine by me, mostly. It's up to them to make them work that way. They're welcome to have their chargers deny his car a charge. They're not welcome to be lazy and steal an option from his car instead of doing the work they should do to make their system work properly.
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green1
Active Member
According to Tesla the S85 and P85 have the same motor, but a different inverter, the P85 inverter is supposed to be capable of pushing more electrons through the motor... And as Tesla has never stretched the truth in the past, we can definitely take them at their word on this one....
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Honestly, I have a problem if they do it by telling the superchargers to refuse service. Show me where on all their supercharging documentation and website it says that you lose supercharging ability if you're in a collision? It all says "free for life" there's nothing that gives them any legal way to disable it on either end.
I actually believed this too until I couldn't confirm that with my data. It kind of doesn't make much sense, in hindsight, since the IGBTs on the S85 motor I've seen a tear down of were already the best available in that line of ICs at the time that Tesla designed these things. It wouldn't make sense for them to complicate production by making another version when the single version is more than capable. The inverter/motor has something like 10 temperature sensors, including sensors on the 3-phase output bus bars, current sensors on each phase, and a ton of other data that can be pulled. If the inverters were in fact different and the P inverter had better hardware, the temperatures should rise faster in the converted base motor/inverter than it does in the P inverter. And no offense intended, but anyone who says otherwise really has no experience with this type of thing and doesn't know what they're talking about. If there were thicker bus bars, the temperature would rise more slowly. Bigger IGBTs, slower temp rise. More/bigger capacitors, slower temp rise. Better heat sinking, slower temp rise. I can go on. The temperature rises during full throttle acceleration in both is virtually identical, as would be expected from.... well, identical hardware.
I'm very confident that the "they have different inverters" talk was just BS to help justify the added cost of the few bytes of code they changed to make it a P. I won't be 100% sure until I see a side by side of components from a P and an S rear unit, but so far the data says they're the same.
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I agree, which is why I said "mostly" fine with it. At least it solves the obvious legal issue with stealing an option from someone's car. The "free for life" battle would be another one, which if it were me I'd be more than happy to battle, but that's a discussion for another time. But in short, yes I agree they shouldn't do this either, but it's better than what they are doing currently, which is completely illegal.
green1
Active Member
Not disagreeing with you here, but on identical hardware wouldn't the temp rise on the 85 be expected to be less than the P85 under full throttle acceleration given that the P85 allows for higher acceleration? In that case, it could be argued that there is different hardware, but that it is perfectly aligned with the power difference allowed between the two keeping the temp rise identical?
(Not saying that this is necessarily the likely case)
You are missing the point that he changed the configuration on the 85 so it thought it was a P85, so that it has the same acceleration.
Well, you can't hack it to do something it's not capable of. Right now BTR's car probably can't be hacked to do 0-60 in 3.9 weeks, or 3.9 seconds. He's got some work to do.
There's debate on the S85/S60 vs P85 motors/inverters being different, but I've yet to see any evidence this is true, and it really doesn't make much sense to have done so from Tesla's perspective. Actually, if we learned one thing from the whole 691 HP debate, I'm pretty sure Tesla rates all of the motors the same. Additionally, the P85 and S85 don't have any other hardware differences that I'm aware of. The P85+ does, but the P85 does not.
If BTR decides he wants his S85 to be a P85 I'll be happy to help him flip that switch. If he wants it to supercharge, I'll help him with that one too. It's his car, which he owns, and he can do whatever he wants with it, or not. Completely up to him as the owner. Sorry Tesla, it's not your car. That's pretty much the end of that particular discussion.
Now, if Tesla's Superchargers, which they do own, do not want to charge his car, that's entirely fine by me, mostly. It's up to them to make them work that way. They're welcome to have their chargers deny his car a charge. They're not welcome to be lazy and steal an option from his car instead of doing the work they should do to make their system work properly.
haha, you said do do
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ok so just to summarize what you are saying...
You are horrified that people hack cars to have performance that they were not intended to have?
So you are against performance upgrades?
I mean, Horrified is a strong word...
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Their argument may be that after a car is totaled it's "life" is over, as it's essentially been deemed parts or scrap. If someone takes those parts or scrap and creates a vehicle from them it's not the same vehicle that Tesla originally built.
Yeah this ^. I'm talking about after making the S85 unit a P85 unit via software the temps were the same.
lol. Ooops
green1
Active Member
I think that without a whole lot of re-wording of what they've communicated so far, they don't have a legal leg to stand on.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think it may depend on the legal status of a totaled/salvaged vehicle. I'm not a lawyer so I'm just speculating.
The P85 cars did have beefier axles, and a different part number for the DU, but I haven't seen a P85 inverter to verify.
I'll 100% agree with Tesla not owning the car. Since his car is completely out of warranty, it's absolutely none of Tesla's business what he does with it.
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Has anyone here had a the cover off of a P85 DU to verify it's the same as a base unit? I'm with wk on this one, the DU's are probably the same. Back in the early FW versions, the hidden menu had a toggle to derate sport torque, which I assumed was used to differentiate the code used between the two 85kwh models.
It is a strong word. I guess I'm starting to see your detractors point the further down the rabbit hole we go. I am not against performance upgrades per se. but in the case of baptizing an S85 into a P85 you haven't really upgraded anything.
you have flipped a switch that makes something work outside it's intended capacity without really knowing what the tolerances are or if the limits put there by the software include any safeties put in place by the original manufacturer.
it is the overclockers dilemma all over again. I see it happen all the time... people up the voltages to their CPU all the time until something gets fried. At some (unknown) point this would happen to your salvage Model S.
all this hacking is all fun and games until somebody dies. or until Tesla gets some really bad press.
as a Tesla Owner, stock holder, and EV enthusiast I have an interest in keeping Tesla out of the papers if something in your experiments were to go horribly wrong.
so I would urge you again to continue on your journey but keep in mind that your actions might have some unintended consequences that might not be apparent to you as you tinker away in your garage.
How exactly is someone going to die by making a software change, which more expensive models of the same car already have?
green1
Active Member
Is this any different than the thousands upon thousands of people who modify their ICE vehicles all the time? tuning engines, "chipping", changing suspension components, doing engine swaps, whatever. Is it ok for people to do that? if so, why wouldn't it be ok on a Tesla?
EcoHeliGuy
Member
green1
Active Member
No, they don't "also" own the supercharger, they ONLY own the supercharger, they don't own the car. And they have specifically sold unlimited lifetime use of the supercharger with the car.
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