Right to Repair: Apple and Tesla

[Hank42]

Why Cant You Repair an iPhone? - Bloomberg View

You could almost see them writing another article and just replacing the word "Apple" with "Tesla".

 

[Lex]

Hmm well to me it's purely a security issue that has caused this latest flap for Apple -- the fingerprint button is a security feature. Apple seems to be doing the right thing by forcing this to be serviced by a trained technician using the approved parts. These devices are not only in the hands of end user consumers, but also in the hands of enterprises.

As for Tesla cars, once there are enough on the road to make a business out of it, I'm sure there will be 3rd party repair shops at least in the parts of the world where consumers are protected.

 

[JRod0802]

The Right to Repair is already a law in Massachusetts. And Tesla, of course, follows the law by making available service manuals to all Massachusetts residents (for a fee).

Here's the bill:
Bill H.3757

And here's an article about a person in Massachusetts (who is on this forum) who is repairing his Tesla. The article mentions this law.
Repairing a Salvage Tesla Model S Due to Flood Damage

In Massachusetts you have the right to request service manuals for the Model S. Did you get access to them? Have they been helpful?
Rich did access the service manuals. The only requirement is that you live in the state of Massachusetts. You have to confirm that and then pay for the access. Payment also includes an address verification check to ensure you do have a mailing address in MA.
Service manual access is time limited. You can get access for a day for $95, but for a years’ worth of access it will set you back about $3,500. Rich has used a few day’s worth of access and has taken copious notes for the tricker parts, but mostly he’s learning through experience and with help from fellow TMC members.

 

[green1]

Hmm well to me it's purely a security issue that has caused this latest flap for Apple -- the fingerprint button is a security feature. Apple seems to be doing the right thing by forcing this to be serviced by a trained technician using the approved parts. These devices are not only in the hands of end user consumers, but also in the hands of enterprises.

If they're worried, disable the fingerprint authentication. Not the whole phone. It's simple, it will revert to asking for the backup password/pin. Bricking the phone to punish people for daring to shop elsewhere for repairs is highly immoral, and should be criminal.

As for Tesla cars, once there are enough on the road to make a business out of it, I'm sure there will be 3rd party repair shops at least in the parts of the world where consumers are protected.

Which so far, for Tesla, is NOWHERE, MA is the closest with the service manuals available, but without the ability to buy many of the parts, or access the software needed to use them, it's no use.

- - - Updated - - -

The Right to Repair is already a law in Massachusetts. And Tesla, of course, follows the law by making available service manuals to all Massachusetts residents (for a fee).

But without parts or access to software, it's a pretty empty gesture.

 

[msnow]

Hmm well to me it's purely a security issue that has caused this latest flap for Apple -- the fingerprint button is a security feature. Apple seems to be doing the right thing by forcing this to be serviced by a trained technician using the approved parts. These devices are not only in the hands of end user consumers, but also in the hands of enterprises.

As for Tesla cars, once there are enough on the road to make a business out of it, I'm sure there will be 3rd party repair shops at least in the parts of the world where consumers are protected.

This ^^^ is exactly right as it pertains to Apple.

 

[Seattle]

If they're worried, disable the fingerprint authentication. Not the whole phone. It's simple, it will revert to asking for the backup password/pin. Bricking the phone to punish people for daring to shop elsewhere for repairs is highly immoral, and should be criminal.
...

You are exactly correct, bricking the whole phone instead of disabling just the modified part, in this case the fingerprint sensor is evidence they are just trying to ruin your device.

And I do want Tesla to release their manuals in a manner that matches up with other car manufacturers. Clearly they aren't wanting to do that, with their $3500 annual fee and $95/week charge. I should be able to buy it for the cost of the manuals in some electronic form, say for $500 at most. I'm sure they are doing that to restrict access.

 

[Hank42]

Apple says sorry for iPhone Error 53 and issues iOS 9.2.1 update to fix it

Maybe some Tesla owners will receive the same treatment??

 

[chickensevil]

I think it depends on the parts you ask Tesla for as well. People have been able to get a hold of trim pieces and such from Tesla without any real issue, including nose cones, rear applique, and emblems/badging. A lot of it is because they just generally have limited parts available. Where I have seen them be really restrictive is when you hit the software point. If you need to touch software/firmware to do any kind of repair, good luck.

It is something that they will likely have to be forced into doing, which is sad, but I have hope that it will come down on the side of the consumer when enough people finally get pissed off about it.

The groundwork laid out by members of this community will certainly help to justify the need.

 

[cpa]

If Tesla wants the Model 3 to be an international success, they had better ramp up their service facilities. No one wants to have their nearest service center a half-day's drive (or longer) away from their home, especially if they are a one-car household. People can improvise for a couple of days or so on occasion. We have seen many instances on this forum where a Model S owner had to wait weeks before the flat bed was in their area to be able to transport their vehicle to the "nearest" service center.

The target customer base for the Model 3 is those folks who have a limited amount of income who want to drive electric. They will think hard before buying a Model 3 if routine warranty repairs could take a long time.

Right now we have a local Ranger here in town to work on simple issues at our homes; he has the flatbed to cart our car to Monterey/Seaside where he does the work there if that is necessary.

Perhaps Tesla's plan is to have more of these resident Rangers hither and yon to take care of routine matters--that would be a good step. But I think eventually Tesla will have to authorize independent repair shops. If there is a software issue, I am certain that Tesla will be able to control the access and availability to these independent shops so that any proprietary information is not compromised.

Just my two cents.....

 

[chickensevil]

I'm sure Tesla would love more service centers, but in many states they can only have but so many before they are blocked. I would imagine also some of the hold out is to get closer to the delivery date. They will likely try to double their sales and service footprint in say 2017 just in time for the delivery of the 3.

 

[neroden]

I'm sure Tesla would love more service centers, but in many states they can only have but so many before they are blocked. I would imagine also some of the hold out is to get closer to the delivery date. They will likely try to double their sales and service footprint in say 2017 just in time for the delivery of the 3.

I know of only one state with a limit on the number of service centers (Michigan, and the limit is zero). I carefully checked New York: there's a limit on the number of STORES, but no limit on the number of service centers. ("Dealer license" and "Auto repair shop license" are totally independent in NY -- theoretically you could have a dealership which is not allowed to repair cars).

Bluntly, Tesla's lack of service centers is not due to governmental interference. I think they just can't train people fast enough.

 

[chickensevil]

I know of only one state with a limit on the number of service centers (Michigan, and the limit is zero). I carefully checked New York: there's a limit on the number of STORES, but no limit on the number of service centers. ("Dealer license" and "Auto repair shop license" are totally independent in NY -- theoretically you could have a dealership which is not allowed to repair cars).

Bluntly, Tesla's lack of service centers is not due to governmental interference. I think they just can't train people fast enough.

So, what happens is that some states require a store at the same location as the service center (see VA for one such example) which then also means they are forced to count that store against their total count (and no the Tyson's Mall location doesn't count in either metric as it is simply a gallery).

But yes, I'm sure training is also playing a part. I was making that assessment though based on store density in States like CA and FL and a lack of store density in other major markets... Nevermind getting into anti Tesla States like Michigan or other mid-western States.

 

[eloder]

If Tesla wants the Model 3 to be an international success, they had better ramp up their service facilities. No one wants to have their nearest service center a half-day's drive (or longer) away from their home, especially if they are a one-car household. People can improvise for a couple of days or so on occasion. We have seen many instances on this forum where a Model S owner had to wait weeks before the flat bed was in their area to be able to transport their vehicle to the "nearest" service center.

The target customer base for the Model 3 is those folks who have a limited amount of income who want to drive electric. They will think hard before buying a Model 3 if routine warranty repairs could take a long time.

Right now we have a local Ranger here in town to work on simple issues at our homes; he has the flatbed to cart our car to Monterey/Seaside where he does the work there if that is necessary.

Perhaps Tesla's plan is to have more of these resident Rangers hither and yon to take care of routine matters--that would be a good step. But I think eventually Tesla will have to authorize independent repair shops. If there is a software issue, I am certain that Tesla will be able to control the access and availability to these independent shops so that any proprietary information is not compromised.

Just my two cents.....

T-Mobile is a force of reckoning in the cell phone world, and they don't bother to offer much outside of major cities/metropolitan areas.

Tesla being heavily urban focused won't impact their growth all that much at this stage, especially given rural populations are generally much less kind to things like EVs. Once they start running into urban saturation issues (decade+ down the road outside of places like Cali and Norway), they can branch out to rural areas.

Besides, they may never need rural service centers with autonomous driving. There will be that undrivable car every once in a while, but routine service/maintenance could easily be accomplished by a consumer hitting a button on their car, and the car will go service itself at the nearest semi-major city.

 

[neroden]

So, what happens is that some states require a store at the same location as the service center (see VA for one such example)

Whaaa? So it's not legal to have a car repair shop with no store in Virginia? Weird! There are no independent car repair shops in VA? Or is there a very special rule designed to hit Tesla?

T-Mobile is a force of reckoning in the cell phone world, and they don't bother to offer much outside of major cities/metropolitan areas.

Tesla being heavily urban focused won't impact their growth all that much at this stage, especially given rural populations are generally much less kind to things like EVs.

We are not talking about rural areas. There are numerous metro areas in the top 100 metro areas in the US with no Service Center. There are some which are over 200 miles from the nearest service center. Tesla does not have a comprehensive urban deployment of service centers at all yet.

 

[chickensevil]

Whaaa? So it's not legal to have a car repair shop with no store in Virginia? Weird! There are no independent car repair shops in VA? Or is there a very special rule designed to hit Tesla?


We are not talking about rural areas. There are numerous metro areas in the top 100 metro areas in the US with no Service Center. There are some which are over 200 miles from the nearest service center. Tesla does not have a comprehensive urban deployment of service centers at all yet.

Might depend on the specific state laws. Independent shops get written in the law differently under various right to repair laws in existence. But from Tesla's perspective they classify as the manufacturer. In so States there is a "definition" that makes manufacturer synonymous with franchisor... Even if said manufacturer has not entered into a franchise business offering (such as Tesla). It's the way laws are written where they use words that to everyone else means one thing and yet they have a section that says "franchisor: for the purposes of this law a franchisor is any company that manufactures a vehicle for sale to private individuals". You could in theory write a law that defines the houses as pink butterflies, and then write a bill titled "Save the pink butterflies!" With a synopsis that says "Pink butterflies are critical to the continued existence and sustainability to the human race and without them humans would be severely hampered therefore this bill will ensure that no pink butterflies will be removed from existence, ever". Congratulations, you just wrote a law that makes it illegal to destroy any houses. (Yes this is an over simplifaction of a very complex set of laws but hopefully helps explain how things get to were they are.

In any case, I might have things backwards and it could be that they couldn't have a store without also having service (also an issue) either way, if they are forced to couple the two together this impacts how they will select locations and how many locations they select.