Roadster 3.0

[Rotarypower]

2 years and 7 months ago, my Roadster was not charging due to the "BSM isolation fault" errors.
The battery was still good for 65% of charge but over the next months, especially when Tesla was working on the car, the charge level went down fast, to the point where it reached 0%. It took Tesla 7 months to realize they had "special tooling" that could charge the battery when separated from the car. When that special tooling finally arrived from Tilburg (only 200km away), it was already too late and battery was declared dead.

What followed was a long discussion with lawyers, and this summer they finally made me an offer for a new motor, new PEM and a "new" R80 battery. A month ago they even stated that "parts are on their way from US". But now, just before signing the agreement, they back off and want me to take a 2.0 battery for the same price! I think someone over there is missing a calculator on their desk...

Basically, they just can't make any promises towards delivery time, they are clueless. I just hope they can make me a new deal today or tomorrow, otherwise we see each other in court on Monday..

@m0rph .....any update on you Roadster?

 

[bart513]

Awesome pic @Mark77a

 

[m0rph]

@m0rph .....any update on you Roadster?

Hi, it's not easy to deal with a company like Tesla. I'll share some details..

On June 6th, Tesla made me a proposal where all parts would be replaced (motor, PEM and 3.0 battery). The price was still steep, but I immediately accepted their offer.
I was waiting for the papers to sign, but weeks went by and follow-up e-mails from my lawyer were not replied. As we had a meeting in court on September 10th, we knew they should come up with something before that date, so we waited.
A few days before the court day, Tesla informed me that there is a problem with the availability of the 3.0 parts so they asked me kindly if a 2.0 battery would be ok too (for the same price!). Well, the answer, of course, was a big NO!
On the court day, again, they asked for more time so next "meeting" will be on October 29th.
As I really want the 3.0, I showed mercy and told Tesla I'm willing to wait until October 1st, 2019 for the new battery. And even longer if they provide me a replacement car as of that date.. Let's see how they react on that proposal.
If things do go south, the court will decide what happens next.

 

[m0rph]

OK a bit off-topic, but on a supercharger tour of N Europe ... (UK to Sweden and back, as you do with free, easy and fast supercharging )...
I recognised the Morph number plate on a model S .
I guessed the owner, as @m0rph on here, who was in the restaurant next door .. amazing odds: 2 roadster owners meeting by chance, somewhere in N. Europe

Hi Mark,

Nice meeting you! And well done spotting my number plate and tracking me down in the restaurant!
In our region, it doesn't happen often you meet other Roadster owners. I've met only 4 in a period of 5 years.

Hopefully we meet again, this time with our Roadsters!

 

[Rotarypower]

Hi, it's not easy to deal with a company like Tesla. I'll share some details..

On June 6th, Tesla made me a proposal where all parts would be replaced (motor, PEM and 3.0 battery). The price was still steep, but I immediately accepted their offer.
I was waiting for the papers to sign, but weeks went by and follow-up e-mails from my lawyer were not replied. As we had a meeting in court on September 10th, we knew they should come up with something before that date, so we waited.
A few days before the court day, Tesla informed me that there is a problem with the availability of the 3.0 parts so they asked me kindly if a 2.0 battery would be ok too (for the same price!). Well, the answer, of course, was a big NO!
On the court day, again, they asked for more time so next "meeting" will be on October 29th.
As I really want the 3.0, I showed mercy and told Tesla I'm willing to wait until October 1st, 2019 for the new battery. And even longer if they provide me a replacement car as of that date.. Let's see how they react on that proposal.
If things do go south, the court will decide what happens next.

@m0rph well thanks for the update. It is disheartening to hear this is the way Tesla is handling the situation. Hoping for an acceptable outcome for you.

 

[slcasner]

Aerodynamics
The original Roadster had a drag coefficient (Cd) of 0.36. Using modern computational methods we expect to make a 15% improvement, dropping the total Cd down to 0.31 with a retrofit aero kit.

Reaching back to post #1 here. We've had many questions and speculations about the aero changes in this thread, but no real information. Today, in conjunction with the statement "I'm not supposed to show these to anyone, but...", I saw photos of the prototype 3.0 Roadster with aero updates installed. The biggest change was to fill in the area behind the rear window with a smooth slope from the roll bar line down to the tail and merging with the existing spoiler, including a large sloping window. The other clearly visible changes were a vertical diverter extending about 3 inches out from the rear bumper behind the rear wheels and aero covers on the wheels.

 

[m0rph]

Hi, it's not easy to deal with a company like Tesla. I'll share some details..

On June 6th, Tesla made me a proposal where all parts would be replaced (motor, PEM and 3.0 battery). The price was still steep, but I immediately accepted their offer.
I was waiting for the papers to sign, but weeks went by and follow-up e-mails from my lawyer were not replied. As we had a meeting in court on September 10th, we knew they should come up with something before that date, so we waited.
A few days before the court day, Tesla informed me that there is a problem with the availability of the 3.0 parts so they asked me kindly if a 2.0 battery would be ok too (for the same price!). Well, the answer, of course, was a big NO!
On the court day, again, they asked for more time so next "meeting" will be on October 29th.
As I really want the 3.0, I showed mercy and told Tesla I'm willing to wait until October 1st, 2019 for the new battery. And even longer if they provide me a replacement car as of that date.. Let's see how they react on that proposal.
If things do go south, the court will decide what happens next.

OK things are finally moving in the correct way. Tesla will now first install a loaner 2.0 battery, and replace it with a 3.0 battery somewhere in the future when it becomes available. I do have to pay for it immediately, although it can take a year or more before it finally arrives. It's not exactly what I wanted but it's a solution I can manage and it ends the deadlock...

 

[wycolo]

3.0 battery timeline:

2018.April.12: Demonstrated need for 3.0 battery (flatbedded 2010 Roadster to Service Center 'your battery IS dead_dead_dead. We'll order a new 3.0 battery for you. You'll hear from us.'

2018.July.20: 'You need to pay deposit on tm.com for 3.0 battery'. Ok, done $5k.

2018.Oct.25: 'Two choices:

1. Continue waiting several more months for 3.0 battery development to get sorted out and enjoy $5k discount when it finally arrives.

2. Opt for an original reman battery at the new lowered price of $14.5k.'

So of course I was curious just how quickly the reman might be available, but no clue about that or anything else.

Vote for the answer you would make (since this is the voting season here in the States).
--

 

[hcsharp]

Demand that they loan you a reman until your 3.0 is ready.

 

[wycolo]

Excellent plan!! I'd hate to miss out on what might be an an even more-improved 3.0 battery.
--

 

[m0rph]

Demand that they loan you a reman until your 3.0 is ready.

That is exactly what I did. I was not offered a lower price for a 2.0 though, I would have taken it at half the price.

 

[PFLeFaou]

I got a remanufactured battery for $4200 at the Tesla service shop in Palo Alto, Ca. just a couple of months ago. Asking for $14.5k looks outrageous to me...

 

[m0rph]

I got a remanufactured battery for $4200 at the Tesla service shop in Palo Alto, Ca. just a couple of months ago. Asking for $14.5k looks outrageous to me...

What? They ask € 33.000 for the same here in Europe (reman 2.0 battery). The new but unavailable 3.0 battery is only a fraction more expensive, at just shy of € 36.000.

Did they remanufacture your own battery, or did you receive a different one?

 

[PFLeFaou]

What? They ask € 33.000 for the same here in Europe (reman 2.0 battery). The new but unavailable 3.0 battery is only a fraction more expensive, at just shy of € 36.000.

Did they remanufacture your own battery, or did you receive a different one?

Of course I have no way to verify it, but they said it is a different one. The increase in range was very notable (max. 190 miles with the old one – before it died – and 240 with the new one) so I tend to believe it isn't my old battery.

 

[Marius]

Just curious, since I ordered my 3.0 pack half a year ago.....Is there anybody that got a 3.0 pack delivered last 3 months or are the rumours true that Tesla is building a new pack caused by the degradation issues with the current 3.0 pack?
Service center can not tell me nothing other than it might take another 1,5 years of waiting.

 

[Stefan T]

If they are building new type of 3,0 packs they may use 21700 cells instead
If there is space in the sheet for 5mm in the width that is possible to make sheet with 21700 cells instead
with 11 sheets to need of width is 55 mm and have 459 cells in each sheet

 

[markwj]

I've been thinking about this '2 year wait' thing.

• The S and X cells have different chemistry and (most importantly) electrical properties, so those cells can't be used (if they could, then surely Roadster 3.0 would have simply used those for obvious economies of scale, lack of surprises, and simplicity of production).
• The 3 uses a different cell size (21700 vs 18650; 70mm vs 65mm long), so those can't be used (ok, maybe they can somehow be squeezed in with some re-engineering, but if they can then why can't that be done now?).
• We know Tesla is moving to the new 21700 cell format, so all new cars will use that. Perhaps even the S and X may also move to this new format at some stage.

So what are they waiting 2 years for? What will change in late 2019 vs 2020, compared to now?

My conclusions (best guess) are:

1. Tesla are simply not prioritising Roadster support at the moment. They don't consider it important enough to take resources away from 3, Y, pickup, etc. A quick fix is not possible.
   
   
2. Tesla have recognised that the degradation of 3.0 packs in the field is greater that expected. 15% over 2 years and 40,000miles is more than double what we saw for the original packs. They have responded by silently halting production and pausing the 3.0 program.
   
   
3. Unable to use the new 21700 cell size, without significant re-engineering for a limited production discontinued car, and faced with 2,000+ cars reaching 10+ years of age and failing battery packs, the only solution is to fix the problem by either finding another 18650 cell or making it work with the existing 18650 cells.
   
   
4. Testing and validation for a new 18650 cell chemistry takes time. Running hundreds/thousands of charge/discharge cycles, laboratory analysis, temperature testing, etc, all takes time. Six months to a year for this wouldn't surprise me.
   
   
5. Model S and X cells seem to have adequate capacity. Supposedly a 85kWh S pack has 7,104 cells. Using 6,831 of these in a roadster pack would yield 81kWh (compared to the 70kWh announced by Tesla for the 3.0 program). Even if later versions of the S/X move to the 21700 cell, Tesla still need to support the existing cars, so these cells must be in plentiful supply for at least the next decade.
   
   
6. My conclusion is that one of two things are happening: a) Tesla are taking their time testing and validating a new 18650 cell to resume the 3.0 program, or b) Tesla are re-engineering the PEM to work with S/X 18650 cells.

What I can't understand is the ill-informed messages coming out of the service centres. Just 'nothing for 2 years' is not a reasonable answer for someone with a brick for a car in the service centre. This only gets worse as time drags on and more batteries fail. What happens when all those owners with legal battery replacement contracts start calling for new batteries? All in with the Tesla mission, it really pisses me off when Tesla messes up like this. We didn't need an over-hyped 3.0 program (with once-mentioned-never-appearing aero and rolling resistance improvements). We needed a simple battery pack and PEM package to keep the cars on the road. The last thing we wanted is for the nay-sayers to be proved right when they said 'told you so - cars on the scrap heap when their batteries die after a few years'. There are 6,831 individual cells in the roadster battery pack - it is simply a waste to scrap/brick the entire car when just one of those cells fails.

I'm hoping that someone at Tesla is listening...

 

[ICON]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mark! See you on Friday !

I've been thinking about this '2 year wait' thing.

• The S and X cells have different chemistry and (most importantly) electrical properties, so those cells can't be used (if they could, then surely Roadster 3.0 would have simply used those for obvious economies of scale, lack of surprises, and simplicity of production).
• The 3 uses a different cell size (21700 vs 18650; 70mm vs 65mm long), so those can't be used (ok, maybe they can somehow be squeezed in with some re-engineering, but if they can then why can't that be done now?).
• We know Tesla is moving to the new 21700 cell format, so all new cars will use that. Perhaps even the S and X may also move to this new format at some stage.

So what are they waiting 2 years for? What will change in late 2019 vs 2020, compared to now?

My conclusions (best guess) are:

1. Tesla are simply not prioritising Roadster support at the moment. They don't consider it important enough to take resources away from 3, Y, pickup, etc. A quick fix is not possible.
   
   
2. Tesla have recognised that the degradation of 3.0 packs in the field is greater that expected. 15% over 2 years and 40,000miles is more than double what we saw for the original packs. They have responded by silently halting production and pausing the 3.0 program.
   
   
3. Unable to use the new 21700 cell size, without significant re-engineering for a limited production discontinued car, and faced with 2,000+ cars reaching 10+ years of age and failing battery packs, the only solution is to fix the problem by either finding another 18650 cell or making it work with the existing 18650 cells.
   
   
4. Testing and validation for a new 18650 cell chemistry takes time. Running hundreds/thousands of charge/discharge cycles, laboratory analysis, temperature testing, etc, all takes time. Six months to a year for this wouldn't surprise me.
   
   
5. Model S and X cells seem to have adequate capacity. Supposedly a 85kWh S pack has 7,104 cells. Using 6,831 of these in a roadster pack would yield 81kWh (compared to the 70kWh announced by Tesla for the 3.0 program). Even if later versions of the S/X move to the 21700 cell, Tesla still need to support the existing cars, so these cells must be in plentiful supply for at least the next decade.
   
   
6. My conclusion is that one of two things are happening: a) Tesla are taking their time testing and validating a new 18650 cell to resume the 3.0 program, or b) Tesla are re-engineering the PEM to work with S/X 18650 cells.

What I can't understand is the ill-informed messages coming out of the service centres. Just 'nothing for 2 years' is not a reasonable answer for someone with a brick for a car in the service centre. This only gets worse as time drags on and more batteries fail. What happens when all those owners with legal battery replacement contracts start calling for new batteries? All in with the Tesla mission, it really pisses me off when Tesla messes up like this. We didn't need an over-hyped 3.0 program (with once-mentioned-never-appearing aero and rolling resistance improvements). We needed a simple battery pack and PEM package to keep the cars on the road. The last thing we wanted is for the nay-sayers to be proved right when they said 'told you so - cars on the scrap heap when their batteries die after a few years'. There are 6,831 individual cells in the roadster battery pack - it is simply a waste to scrap/brick the entire car when just one of those cells fails.

I'm hoping that someone at Tesla is listening...

 

[m0rph]

We should stalk Elon on Twitter. Every day, over and over again.

 

[Marius]

Thanks for your analyzes Mark. I think it is spot on. I hope I can reach 2021 with my current pack. I am now down to CAC 102 and using as daily driver is only possible because of the JdeMo charge unit from QCP.
Model S cells in the Roadster would be great since these cells prove to be quite sustainable.