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Roadster 3.0

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I would think the greatest advantage of switching to the Model S batteries for the Roadster would be the self-discharge characteristics. If you leave a Roadster unplugged for two months the battery is toast and costs $40,000 to replace. If you leave a Model S unplugged it will be fine a year later.

Tesla has to benefit by having only one battery chemistry to deal with for all their cars.
 
I would think the greatest advantage of switching to the Model S batteries for the Roadster would be the self-discharge characteristics. If you leave a Roadster unplugged for two months the battery is toast and costs $40,000 to replace. If you leave a Model S unplugged it will be fine a year later.

Tesla has to benefit by having only one battery chemistry to deal with for all their cars.

The difference there is not in the cells, but in the support electronics and computers.

If you leave a Model S unplugged, without sleep mode enabled, vampire drain will empty the battery in a lot less than a year. It is the Model S sleep modes that help it maintain battery charge levels by shutting down electronics and computer controllers when the car goes to sleep. The roadster doesn't have that capability.

See:
Life With Tesla Model S: Even After Update, Vampire Draw Remains
Power drain while idle (Vampire Load))
 
Tesla has to benefit by having only one battery chemistry to deal with for all their cars.

We don't yet know what chemistry it will be. It's not a Model S cell, though it could be and probably is similar chemistry. When the Model 3 comes out it will certainly be a different cell and the chemistry will likely be at least somewhat different. Going forward older models will likely always have different chemistry than newer, (unless some ultimate density plateau is reached), but it's not that difficult to manage.
 
The most important part of this upgrade for the limited number of Roadsters, is that this sets the bar for future model S/X/Gen3 owners who at some point will have 250K+ miles and have a worn battery that neeeds replacement/refurbishment. It looks like it will be available, and likely in a better format/range than is currently available!
 
I had a car with 175k miles. I assure you I didn't need to replace the entire car. In fact, I didn't need to replace anything, certainly not the engine.

My current ICE has 130k miles and drives beautiful. Replacing engine and transmission would not be $40k.

So far, Tesla's have not proven to have lower maintenance cost of ownership. I've never had to pay $700 per year on maintenance on any car (the Mercedes came close, Japanese cars were cheap). That's a discussion for another thread.

But if battery replacement continues to be astronomical, that's going to be a problem going forward.

I sincerely hope the new stuff won't be 40k, because it just won't be worth it for 95% of the owners.

Every car owner is different. Some people bought Roadsters to garage, hardly driven, as an investment. Others, like myself, use the Roadster daily. Some change cars every 2-3 years, others like yourself keep their's until they no longer function, regardless of mileage. I also have high mileage ICE vehicles - one with 120,000, another with 95,000 miles and my Roadster just went over 75,000. Maintenance costs for cars vary - $500+ for an oil change on certain European makes is not uncommon. This list of top 10 cars to maintain shows that the cost averages almost twice that of annual Roadster maintenance.

But my original post was about what I intend to do. Everyone is different and, bless your heart, each one treats their vehicles as to how they see fit.
 
one of the most important draws of EVs, for me, is yearly as well as long term maintenance costs.

i grant that teslas are for rich people, thus their maintenance costs are up there, acccordingly.

i have good faith that the mass market teslas will lower those costs. we are not there yet.
 
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Given everything going on at Tesla, I would guess that one of the primary constraints of the this upgrade project is engineering time. Therefore, the easiest thing would be to use as many of the existing Model S components as possible. Model S cells, BMS, and charge port are all well sorted out to work together. Thereby increasing the possibility of Supercharging. Of course, it could all hinge on the retrofit labor costs. Also, I suspect that owners can still help direct the final details of what they offer so I would encourage those interested to write to Tesla.

Right on about minimizing engineering time, as Tesla has many projects to complete for current and future vehicles.

Model S cells would have taken lots of engineering time, since the Model S pack provides protection that is internal to each cell in the Roadster pack. The Roadster used laptop cells that have a current interupt device and a thermal interupt device built into each cell. To minimize engineering time Tesla needed to find a suitable consumer electronics cell that has the same protection as the orginal cells, with good pricing and availability.

Using Model S cells would require a complete redesign of the Roadster pack.

GSP
 
Yes, I did not "see" this detail before ... MS cells are not directly transferable into roadster pack without compromising safety big time. The word "identified" makes sense.

What is interesting is that tesla did not stop at the battery pack but also looked at whole package and identified bearings and aerodynamics as a low hanging fruits to better range. They could try obtaining those 400 miles through more kWh but at much higher cost and price.
 
I'm surprised no-one has yet talked about the re-calibration of "Ideal Miles" that Tesla will need to do for cars with the 3.0 upgrade package. And, while some have said they want only the battery upgrade, the non-battery upgrades are what I would do now (if any) since my battery is in good shape.

Here's some analysis. As usual, correct me if my math is sloppy:

We don't yet have enough information to understand what the new Ideal Miles will be. Will it be based on the 400 mile promise, or something else? The 245 was either from the EPA 2-cycle test at the time, or from 50 MPH continuous driving (does anyone know for sure?). We don't know the conditions for the 400 mile achievable range. People have gone over 300 miles in a Roadster under very limited conditions today, but that's not how the Ideal Miles were calibrated. I believe Model S's Ideal Miles is similarly based on the new 5-cycle EPA test, so my guess is that will also be what Tesla does for Roadster 3.0.

Today's Roadster, when new, supplies 53kWh of juice (available). The 31% more energy that Elon's blog post cites puts the new pack at 69.43kWh, which corresponds to the "roughly 70kWh" statement. 400 miles from 70kWh is about 175 watt-hours per Ideal Mile, if Tesla chooses to calibrate based on that claim. Today an Ideal Mile corresponds to 216.3 watt-hours/mile (53kWh/245).

Of course, a larger capacity battery doesn't change the Wh/mile - that's coming from the additional parts of the upgrade - aerodynamics, rolling resistance, wheel bearings, residual brake drag, etc. Those are worth around a 23% improvement in range by themselves.

Will Tesla sell the upgrade in pieces, or will we have to take the whole enchilada? For those of use with custom paint, custom StarShield, etc., will there be additional cost involved for the aero improvements? For those who want the best handling, can we at least not use the new LRR tires (note that the Yoko 07 and 08 series are already LRR) since expectation is that they'll have less grip?

And now, what if people opt for the battery swap but don't do the aerodynamic or mechanical or tire portions of the upgrade? They'll have an Ideal Mile calibration that will be even more separate from reality, and that will vary by car depending on upgrades done. Of course, we have some of that today with people putting different tires on the vehicle, but perhaps that's more minor - or has anyone correlated range degradation with non-Yoko tires yet?


While some here have talked about getting the battery swap only, one other question is whether people can opt for the non-battery portions and thus get a 23% improvement in range without changing out the battery? This actually seems the best way to go if you have a good battery. At 245 Ideal Miles (my car charges into the mid-220's), I can go 190 real miles today. If those get 23% better, I'm now looking at 300 Ideal Miles and 233 real miles on my existing battery (152.6 CAC). Then I can continue to drive on my old battery since it has plenty of useful life left and get the new battery only when it's time. But, as I said up thread, based on past Roadster upgrade experience, I'm not confident that Tesla will continue to provide any Roadster upgrade package for more than a year. Maybe this time is different since it's so public.

But, we don't know what the new look for the car will be, nor what the expense of all those changes will be. Wheel bearings and new brake release design, as well as tires, are quite straightforward. Depending on where the aerodynamic pieces are and from what they're made will determine that part of the cost (plus paint and/or StarShield).

All things to ponder as we try to make the best of what Tesla is offering to us.
 
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How feasible would it be for Tesla to re-use complete Model S modules, instead of the Sheet design in the current roadster pack?

If Tesla somehow shoe-horned enough Model S modules into a pack the same dimensions as the old ESS, it would certainly have some merit in inventory management, as well as repair and manufacturing cost. It _might_ even allow supercharging.

I also wonder if there's a long term concern for Tesla in getting hold of enough of what are now legacy cells for the battery repairs, especially for those owners with extended battery warranties?

I "only" own a Model S, but am interested to see where this goes. One of my worries about long term ownership is the future supply issues with older tech batteries.

I really hope Tesla don't fall flat on this 400 mile promise. I am worried about damage to the brand.

One last worry is if Model S drivers copy-cat this route. They'd be able to drive much faster, stop and Supercharge (or battery change!) and be hours quicker door to door. It would be difficult to put a positive PR spin on this other than "285 mile range with Superchargers is all you need". I agree to a point, but there's still merit in more range.
 
upgrades ala carte?

I've been assuming you could take whichever upgrades you wanted.


I wouldn't be so sure. Remembering back to when there was a Roadster 2.5 soundproofing upgrade offered with a vinyl flap to keep stuff from come up onto the doorsill, you couldn't get just one or the other—they came together. Unfortunately, they were only available for a few months!

David
 
I'm surprised no-one has yet talked about the re-calibration of "Ideal Miles" that Tesla will need to do for cars with the 3.0 upgrade package.

Good point. I assume they'll only update the firmware with the battery upgrade, it would be a lot of work to create custom Ideal Mile calcs for every combination of upgrades. The other upgrades will work just fine with the current firmware, but will make it easier to meet or beat the current Ideal range.

This highlights one of the problems with using Ideal Miles to measure battery capacity. I'd rather see the battery gauge in kWh, and have a separate energy screen with projected range, and an ideal range based on a Wh/mi that I can enter myself.
 
I'm surprised there wasn't any marketing language in the blog post about making the Roadster "the longest range electric vehicle on a single charge" or something to that extent.

I also wish they'd address the parts situation. I've been trying to replace my peeling halogen headlights with the Xenon upgrades since 8/2014. I was first told the parts would be back in stock in 10/2014 and then 12/2014. However, they are still not available. My local SC advisors told me they were trying to move all remaining Roadster parts to a single warehouse in the U.S., including moving parts over from overseas. While that's good for us in North America, I feel for owners in Europe and Asia.

That parts availability comment is a bit off topic and can be discussed further in the appropriate thread. We should stay on the 3.0 upgrade prototype topic here.
 
What is interesting is that tesla did not stop at the battery pack but also looked at whole package and identified bearings and aerodynamics as a low hanging fruits to better range. They could try obtaining those 400 miles through more kWh but at much higher cost and price.

Hmm, I think many of us here feel that Tesla couldn't do what Elon promised with just a battery pack upgrade, and so looked at other ways to meet the 400 mile challenge.

If 53kWh = 245 miles, then to get 400 miles on the same outdated EPA 2-cycle test, the battery would have had to been over 86kWh, which would have meant a per cell capacity greater than is in Model S today. With Model S cells, Roadster would have 81.7kWh of battery, so it seems conclusive that Tesla isn't using Model S cells since there would be no reason for Tesla to use a different number of cells (other than weight, but there was no mention of weight improvements). Changing the number of cells means more manufacturing costs for sheets and packs, etc.

So, Roadster 3.0 is using something less than Model S cell capacity. To me, that's disappointing. Again, I'd rather that Tesla has waited another couple more years and gotten a better cell technology into Roadster. Most of us can easily wait.
 
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