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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Article suggests China will continue to support Russia, including the re-supply of their military weapons. I’ve been wondering about that - if Russia did agree to a treaty, then they would likely try to restock and rebuild their military, but how. It occurred to me that, at that point, China might help them out quite a bit. But then the US should provide American planes, like the F-15s as well as Patriot Air Defense. Curious about others’ thoughts on this.


China 'preparing for war' with US, expert warns
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/04/china-preparing-for-war-with-us-expert-warns/
 
Regarding the retirement of the F-22s in my earlier posts, the link below was what I was getting at. Rather than retiring them, we should really reconsider giving them to our Allies, if they want them. They are very expensive to maintain, and NATO allies already have their F-35s. But now would be the time to act to save these planes before they are scrapped.

 
Regarding the retirement of the F-22s in my earlier posts, the link below was what I was getting at. Rather than retiring them, we should really reconsider giving them to our Allies, if they want them. They are very expensive to maintain, and NATO allies already have their F-35s. But now would be the time to act to save these planes before they are scrapped.


No one is ever going to give away an F-22, even if they get retired. There is still some "special sauce" regarding the F-22 that US Gov doesn't want out. Specifically, the stealth coating on it is much MUCH better than the F-35, resulting in a radar cross-section of 1/10th the size of the F-35 (which is already like the size of a tangerine).

Also . . . maintenance on the F-22 is next-level difficult. No 3rd party buying these would want to take that on. The high maintenance was one of the reasons for cancellation of the project and further push to the F-35.
 
The Ukrainian Air Force claims it shot down eight Russian cruise missiles Tuesday that were fired into Ukraine from Belarus.
 
I'm definitely not an expert. Still, the Brazilian program could be a model fro the longer term Ukraine solution, assuming Ukraine can somehow survive the present hostilities. The versatility and support simplicity of the Gripen make it an almost obvious choice. In the meantime there are plenty of obvious choices now, mostly with US source and supply. All of those do require much more robust support than could be deployed quickly. For quick deployment there seem to be no alternative than more MIG those are not rare.

I do suspect the immediate important issues are command and control help, plus high-altitude surface to air missiles and drones (loitering can help. If they are to survive do they not need to be able to destroy logistical support of the Russian forces in Crimea, Belarus and Russia? Somehow the fight needs to be offensive if this si to end favorably.

Is that not true? It seems NATO and US military people have that sort of conclusion, but politically such a thing is fraught. The world needs to face reality.
Anyway, Sweden has long been really efficient in military tactical and strategic solutions. Were those resources somehow to be deployed many equations would change.

When Putin's stated opinions and goals have been clear ever since he was in Saint Petersburg I really cannot understand how the world keeps dithering. He'll never stop until the world stops him. Ukraine cannot do it alone. No single country can.

I have been in too many war zones even though I have never been a military person. Ones like this one never end until the aggressors are stopped or the defenders are obliterated.

Even those have festering resentments that can arise decades or even centuries later. In this one the NATO members and non-member allies have thus far kept Imperial Russia contained. That is only stoppable with overwhelming strength and unshakable resolve. Northern Europeans all understand history. The North and South Americans almost always fail to understand. They maintain their ignorance of China and nearly all of Asia. Now all that ignorance has combined with greed fro cheap fossil fuels.

Sorry for my rant. it is probably unhelpful.

The bulk of dictators are run of the mill type. They make life a mess for their citizens, but rarely pose much of a threat to other countries. The world has many dictators or democratically elected leaders who are taking their countries in that direction including most of Africa and Asia. It would be convenient for the country's people if their dictator left and was replaced by a more benevolent leader, but most of these people pose little threat to the rest of the world.

Then occasionally someone comes along who is truly dangerous. People who understand Psychology very well might spot the unicorn dictator who is dangerous, but the bulk of the world's population misses them until it's too late. The rest of Europe thought Hitler was a run of the mill dictator until it was too late.

My partner is something of an expert on personality disorders. She can spot one just about anywhere. Her mother had a borderline PD and her ex-BIL had
an anti-social PD, plus she has a masters in Psych. I recognize them when she points them out to me because I was cyberstalked by a borderline a little over 20 years ago. I wouldn't have believed they existed until I had my run in. People with PDs have alien thought processes to the rest of the world. The successful ones learn how to mask it and act "normal" for at least short periods of time so people think they are dealing with a normal human when really it's an alien in disguise.

Some combinations of PDs especially combined with some successful camouflage techniques can be very dangerous. My partner thinks Putin is probably primarily anti-social with some narcissistic mixed in. But he's learned how to come off as a regular dictator rather than a dangerous one. So he's been working to entangle Europe so much economically they couldn't afford to break away. He thought he had them before this war. He's still making money from oil and gas because of the entanglements.

Most people who don't have first hand experience of getting hurt with one or more of the more dangerous PDs (borderline, narcissistic, or anti-social) have a hard time believing these people actually exist and are more likely to accept the mask these people put up at face value.

Putin has finally shown his true colors in a way they world can't deny any longer. He destroyed his mask. The world is going to deal with him differently from now on. He may not survive this war. Russians can be very apathetic about dictators, but they tend to get revolutionary when they lose a war.

Should have left the houses standing and spiked all their liquor bottles with arsenic.

Some women in the occupied towns in the north did something similar. They made pavlova for the entire unit occupying their town and spiked it with rat poison.

Article suggests China will continue to support Russia, including the re-supply of their military weapons. I’ve been wondering about that - if Russia did agree to a treaty, then they would likely try to restock and rebuild their military, but how. It occurred to me that, at that point, China might help them out quite a bit. But then the US should provide American planes, like the F-15s as well as Patriot Air Defense. Curious about others’ thoughts on this.


China 'preparing for war' with US, expert warns
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/04/china-preparing-for-war-with-us-expert-warns/

China is always looking for what's best for China. When Russia is down they will offer all sorts of aid, but with strings attached.

China has been preparing for war with the US and the rest of Asia for a couple of decades, but they have some problems of their own. They have even less military experience than Russia. Other than some minor skirmishes on the border with India, China has not been to war since the early 1950s.

Good militaries study every conflict and try to learn as many lessons as possible. The US and the major members of NATO are obsessive about this. China has learned to do it too. However, nothing beats first hand experience. The US thought it knew what to do in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they still learned a lot of lessons first hand.

China has no hands on military experience. Their only war vets are very old men at the end of their lives at this point. If China does start a war, it's inevitable they will make some major mistakes. Who knows if they will be severe enough to doom their operation or not?

Regarding the retirement of the F-22s in my earlier posts, the link below was what I was getting at. Rather than retiring them, we should really reconsider giving them to our Allies, if they want them. They are very expensive to maintain, and NATO allies already have their F-35s. But now would be the time to act to save these planes before they are scrapped.


Giving another country a hanger queen in a war or even under a serious threat is a bad idea. Ukraine needs planes that can be kept in the air as much as possible in a future conflict. The fact the F-22 has some highly classified tech is another reason not to give them away to anyone, but the high maintenance problem is a deal killer in itself.

The F-22s probably won't be scrapped, they will be put into mothballs in Arizona. The US does that with most of its military hardware that still has life left in it.

What the Ukrainians are most likely to get are F-16s. The US has a lot in storage, it's so widely used that getting spares from allies in an emergency would be easy, and it's one of the easiest to maintain US jets. It's old, but still quite capable. They may get some F-18s and F-15s too as countries replace them with F-35s. Until the Ukrainian economy recovers from this war they will be getting hand-me-down planes, but eventually they may upgrade to F-35s.
 
Looks like conservatives are still solidly behind Putin.

Ok I will ask the cognoscenti in this thread - how do we fix the partisanship that Putin created/sowed around the world. It’s a simmering smokestack that continues to offer weapon potential to Putin. Personally if it were in my power, I would douse them all with water until they cried uncle. Or find a version of the amnesia device used in Men in Black and flash them all.
 
@wdolson actually the most important struggle the communist party had was with Vietnam following Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia to stop the Khemer Rouge (backed by China) genocide of the Vietnamese minority. The Vietnamese army quickly overran Cambodia but as many troops were still occupied in subduing the south and fighting the Hmong in Laos they pulled the army from the north and shifted them south. China moved into the the only provinces untouched by war (USA avoided these provinces so as to not provoke China accidentally) and destroyed all infrastructure. Vietnam shifted the armies back north in forced marches that were, from the rumors that reached us In Thailand (don't ask) incredible feats. They then smashed the Chinese armies who retreated north and China claimed victory for having proved their point but the Khemer Rouge were destroyed as a coherent fighting force and we discovered the horror of the killing fields. In a sad way but one that I think helped in reconciliation the tragedy of Cambodia pulled the Vietnamese and USA together in that they both recognized and were shocked by the horrors of the Khemer Rouge. Took a long long time to negotiate the peace there...hundreds of thousands of people are forever traumatized. It would be more..but they are dead. I've rocked grown men to sleep...they couldn't sleep unless someone held them. Men who had their entire families killed in front of them but they were left alive. Or women, or children. I have a hard time writing about it to this day.

China to date has backed all the worst governments of the modern post wwII age, China..not Russia/USSR. North Korea, Khemer Rouge led Cambodia, Albania, Romania. That was China's puppet satellite ecosystem. Horrid governments, the worst of the worst of the worst. So, it's no surprise whatsoever that a bit of human rights violations won't make them blink. After all they forced tens of millions of women to receive abortions and are currently accused of genocide against the Uighers. Don't expect much..if anything from the CCP re Russia. If anything happens it won't be due to moral considerations that's for sure.

By contrast USSR backed Angola and Cuba and Nicaragua and Vietnam, etc. Countries absolutely opposed to the the US...brutal yes at times...but nothing nothing like the entities backed by China. A bizarre twist..just bizarre. Russia seems to be working to make up time and take things back to 1939.
 
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Ok I will ask the cognoscenti in this thread - how do we fix the partisanship that Putin created/sowed around the world. It’s a simmering smokestack that continues to offer weapon potential to Putin. Personally if it were in my power, I would douse them all with water until they cried uncle. Or find a version of the amnesia device used in Men in Black and flash them all.
Cutting off the monies would be a good start. A really good start. Dig it out and send people to jail for taking it. If a lawyer in the USA takes money from Russia/n off to jail, media entity..off to jail. Money, root of this evil.
 
Ok I will ask the cognoscenti in this thread - how do we fix the partisanship that Putin created/sowed around the world. It’s a simmering smokestack that continues to offer weapon potential to Putin. Personally if it were in my power, I would douse them all with water until they cried uncle. Or find a version of the amnesia device used in Men in Black and flash them all.
I don't think there is an easy solution here.

In Soviet days the idea was to censor / ban all information not approved by the state. With Putin he adopted a different idea (I'm not sure whether others have done this before or it is his innovation) - just put out so much misinformation that it drowns out all real information.

With Climate Change, coal / oil companies have tried a variation of this. Create enough doubt. They have succeeded in completely taking over one main party in the US. From Climate Change believer presidential nominee in 2008, we went to someone who calls climate change a "Chinese Hoax".

Putin's disinformation campaign methods have now been adopted by ultra-right all over the world - in the US, UK, Hungary, India, Brazil .... they don't try to "ban" actual information (though they do strong arm journalists they don't like), but spread misinformation through social media. As long as there is a willing audience for such information - how do you counter that ?

ps : In case someone is wondering who Orban is ...

 
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Ok I will ask the cognoscenti in this thread - how do we fix the partisanship that Putin created/sowed around the world. It’s a simmering smokestack that continues to offer weapon potential to Putin. Personally if it were in my power, I would douse them all with water until they cried uncle. Or find a version of the amnesia device used in Men in Black and flash them all.
The sources of social division include Putin the Murdoch Press, the Fossil Fuel industry, and conservative politicians,

Russia has weaponised social media and used it to help spread division and partisanship.

However, this war is a PR disaster for the "hard right", and any politicians in the West than can be linked to Putin,

That should be enough to see more governments elected inclined to accelerate clean energy and transport.

Moving to clean energy and transport, means the Fossil Fuel Industry, the Murdoch Press and Russia are all diminished, with less money to play with.
It also mean a major source of conflict, division and uncertainty has been removed. People are more likely to be optimistic about the future, and embrace change.

Those fully-on-board with the Putin view of the world tend to be older and less well educated, both inside and outside of Russia. Sooner or later, they will die from something, Aside for the Fossil Fuel industry, there isn't a big pot of money to fund cyberwarfare. The social media presence is heavily dependent on bots. better screening of social media for bots, and better cybersecurity in general will help things.

I would not underestimate the value of Elon, Tesla and SpaceX setting a positive example. Showing things can be done, progress can be made, and it is possible to bake a bigger cake. In addition setting that example, they are also accelerating clean energy and transport, and widening the range of possible outcomes.

Short term It is hard to see Putin being replaced, but longer term Putin will die, or eventually be overthrown. A better version of Russia is an alternative that may emerge, Mainly because the current model will be shown to be a disaster. Ukraine as part of the EU will power ahead, giving the Russians an example of what they are missing out on.

I suggested very early in the war that Tesla and SpaceX could and should set up operations in Ukraine after the war.
Zelensky and Musk have already discussed doing something with space industries. Ukraine is a country with a lot of resources and a lot of potential.
Establishing new industries will accelerate the rebuild.
 
So, I will go with @nativewolf ’s suggestion: let’s follow the money. Some organization needs to root around in these individuals’ coffers and see if there is Russian money flowing to them. And if there is, call it out. I don’t want another Joe McCarthy moment, but stopping people allied with a regime intent on genocide, needs to happen.
 
It started long before Putin.

Putin exploited fissures that were already there in each culture.

A lot of the trolls Putin uses are not in Russia. Some US DOJ people want to legally declare these people as agents of the Russian state which would allow the DOJ to go after them as foreign spies. That would allow them to break up the troll farms.

I wonder what those folks with “I’d rather be a Russian than a Democrat” T-shirts are saying now.

Some are doubling down
 
Some US DOJ people want to legally declare these people as agents of the Russian state which would allow the DOJ to go after them as foreign spies. That would allow them to break up the troll farms.
YES Please! What is required for this to happen?
Some are doubling down

We should give them their wish - fly them (open an air corridor just for them), directly to Russia. Russia is after all, looking for volunteers to fight for them..

Lest someone think I’m being US centric, the offer should be made for those who feel the same anywhere in the West. I’m not as familiar with other countries’ groups who are enraptured by Putin/Kremlin.
 
YES Please! What is required for this to happen?

It was something my partner saw about a month ago. I can't find anything on it now. There may be something afoot though. I would guess it would require a judge to rule on it.

We should give them their wish - fly them (open an air corridor just for them), directly to Russia. Russia is after all, looking for volunteers to fight for them..

Lest someone think I’m being US centric, the offer should be made for those who feel the same anywhere in the West. I’m not as familiar with other countries’ groups who are enraptured by Putin/Kremlin.

I wouldn't be upset if all those people moved to Russia. Let them live in Putin's "utopia". I'm sure they would be whining non-stop within a few weeks.