Russia/Ukraine conflict

[KBF]

Indeed, in WW2 the Empire of Japan conducted a sneak attack on American territory w/o a prior declaration of war. The USA ended that conflict 3.5 years later with 2 atomic weapons used on Japanese territory.

If one were to follow his analogy, what Putin is saying is that Ukraine would be justified in using atomic weapons on Russian soil to put an end to this long slog of war. Let's be clear who was the aggressor, and who was the target of that attack.

So not what Puttie had in mind I think, but he is completely nuts. So there's that...

It's key to keep focused on who is the aggressor, for sure.

The attack on Pearl Harbor is one of the biggest tactical blunders in history - definitely Japan's, at least (Hitler attacking the USSR was also ill-advised - but lucky for non-fascist democracy). Until that moment, there wasn't a politically acceptable threat to American freedom.

Adding nuance, though - the atom bombs weren't necessary to end the war, despite the propaganda afterwards. Some scholars suggest it was more a warning/signal to the USSR (and the beginning of the Cold War) than to create an effect on WW2. Germany had already surrendered, Japan was basically under siege and factions were already discussing surrender (the article I linked it goes into some excellent nuance).

The USA was already firebombing larger cities with greater loss of life, and from decoded Japanese communications the leadership barely paid any attention to the atom bomb - they were focused more on avoiding a soviet invasion (which turned out very poorly for Germany). If anything, the ethical mindset of the USA was likely that if any country deserved to be demonstrated on, it was Japan - so perhaps a retributive element at most. But already they could see that the USSR was a greater threat than the remnants of Japan.

 

[KBF]

The West already caved because every leader repeat and repeat again that they will not actively attack any Russian troops on the ground or in the air. They can rape babies and put in on tik tok but the West will not actively go rescue them. This is the power Russia already hold, therefore they do atrocious things on the ground.

So now it's not a matter of looking to see who can play chicken best, but to look for exit ramps. Russia's military capabilities and economic prowess have been severely damaged. They know it, we know it, and Putin knows it. And we know Putin will not concede...so what to do....

This is one thing that puzzles me is that there was talk of genocide early on (I think some western countries were labelling it that way) when these stories/evidence emerged - isn't most of the UN signed to some agreement about intervening in genocidal situations? Or did this somehow not meet a very precise definition? Putin clearly stated that he doesn't believe Ukraine exists (/should) and his goal was making the entire region Russian. And actions match the words - killing civilians and kidnapping children. Or does it require years of investigation first?

 

[ElectricIAC]

This is one thing that puzzles me is that there was talk of genocide early on (I think some western countries were labelling it that way) when these stories/evidence emerged - isn't most of the UN signed to some agreement about intervening in genocidal situations? Or did this somehow not meet a very precise definition? Putin clearly stated that he doesn't believe Ukraine exists (/should) and his goal was making the entire region Russian. And actions match the words - killing civilians and kidnapping children. Or does it require years of investigation first?

There was also talk of mythical jet fighter pilots taking out whole squadrons.

 

[CatB]

Karen's trying to teach Elon history:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577224392068980737

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

Time to move from personal grievances and opinions about Elon’s tweets to what this thread is about: constructive discussions about the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

 

[lolachampcar]

and who moved the stuff from the investor's thread?

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

and who moved the stuff from the investor's thread?

That concerned geopolitical discussions.

The tweet discussion was halted in the main thread this morning and in this one right now.

 

[iPlug]

Per FT, Saudi Arabia and Russia planning oil production cuts of “1mn-2mn barrels a day or more”.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

 

[Tiger]

Is it just me or does it look like 'jihadists got nothing on regular russian patriots'

 

[bkp_duke]

Is it just me or does it look like 'jihadists got nothing on regular russian patriots'

That's a reality check for many. These are people in the middle-of-nowhere Russia. They are either convinced by what they are told by the gov, or are afraid to speak out. In the end, that's the same thing.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Is it just me or does it look like 'jihadists got nothing on regular russian patriots'

I would argue that the real extremists are those who won’t entertain mediation and peace and are publicly egging on the potential for nuclear winter.

 

[X Fan]

Ukr relentlessly moving towards Kherson

 

[Tiger]

I would argue that the real extremists are those who won’t entertain mediation and peace and are publicly egging on the potential for nuclear winter.

These people are sending their family members to certain death, and seem proud about it.

 

[whisperingshad]

I say lets not meddle in people affairs and disband Nato.

 

[unk45]

That's a reality check for many. These are people in the middle-of-nowhere Russia. They are either convinced by what they are told by the gov, or are afraid to speak out. In the end, that's the same thing.

To be fair people in-the-middle-of-nowhere in most countries are distinctly different and less informed than are other people. It matters little which country.
Of course that is my opinion. Still, I have spent far too much of my life in middle-of-nowhere-places in one country or another. That is one reason I gravitate to very large cities.
I doubt that such Russians are much different than are those equivalent elsewhere.
For reference checkout voting patterns in Rural US, Brazil, France, Italy, UK or any other place with data. The inferences are causal, no accident. Ruralists self-select for homogeneity.
(opinion only: I offer no data)

 

[petit_bateau]

Time to move from personal grievances and opinions about Elon’s tweets to what this thread is about: constructive discussions about the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

The Ukraine will make its own decisions about when it moves on, and when it stops, because it has a lot of personal grievances to settle. We are either with them, or we are not with them. Neutrality is support for the aggressor.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577369124509884416

 

[ElectricIAC]

The Ukraine will make its own decisions about when it moves on, and when it stops, because it has a lot of personal grievances to settle. We are either with them, or we are not with them. Neutrality is support for the aggressor.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577369124509884416

And it can make those decisions when they can fund their own war with their own money, not mine and yours.

 

[petit_bateau]

And it can make those decisions when they can fund their own war with their own money, not mine and yours.

The Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons that were on their territory in return for our promises.

If money is what concerns you then you are speaking the wrong language.

We have to keep our promises.

Together.

 

[ElectricIAC]

The Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons that were on their territory in return for our promises.

If money is what concerns you then you are speaking the wrong language.

We have to keep our promises.

Together.

They knew the risks. And if you haven’t noticed our government is not very good at keeping promises.

Just ask Vietnam and Afghanistan.

 

[petit_bateau]

They knew the risks. And if you haven’t noticed our government is not very good at keeping promises.

Just ask Vietnam and Afghanistan.

I think you have the wrong country.

In any case that is irrelevant.

You can help make amends now.