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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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I don't know if this tweet has been posted:-

The apparent significance is, it is a Done strike on part of the famous convoy, I believe taking out the air defence unit.

The air defence unit seems to sit there blissfully unaware.

My guess, we know some Russian soldiers have gone off to sit in the woods, this type of thing will make more want to go sit off in the woods.

Russian military intelligence will know what this means, and there might be a bit more flexibility in the next round of negotiations.
This Mar 4, 2022 article on them as more videos and info.

Ukraine's Bayraktar TB2 Drones are Wreaking Havoc on Russian Vehicles​

 
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It seems a Ukrainian rocket battery (i.e. unguided Grads, both sides have these) hit the Russian patrol vessel yesterday night, in the Black Sea. The video at night shows the attack, followed by a subsequent secondary explosion on the ship (i.e. something got hit). The daytime pictures suggests it is still afloat but on fire. The ship will likely have been 5-10 miles offshore, certainly no more than 15-miles.

This shows that the Ukrainians still have a functioning sensor-to-shooter system operating on some of the Black Sea coast, including the ability to do target identification (i.e. they didn't just hit some random merchant vessel). It is actually quite impressive to hit such a vessel with such a weapon, this requires good teamwork.

This is the sort of thing that makes an amphibious task force wary of closing a coastline, might be why the Russians are still at sea. I think those ~5,000 troops are pretty much the only uncommitted troop reserves the Russian have left.



(Re whether it was a TB2 drone or a helicopter that hit the artillery battery, I don't know. I have seen a variety of different suggestions on the net in different voiceovers etc. I simply cannot see evidence in the photos/videos to be sure. My personal suspicion is a drone but it could be a helicopter, indeed possibly the one that was lost).

(1.7 million refugees have left Ukraine so far. The UK has granted them 300 visas so far. Shameful.)
 

Putin must be getting desperate if this is true. Although they have experience of FIBUA obviously another language issue springs to mind. Also fairly easy to spot as outsiders in most cases too.

Also found this Anonymous reckon they’ve hacked into a couple of Russian TV channels and broadcast footage from Ukraine

 
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Didn't know much of Grozny, but surprisingly sounds like they are using the same playbook: Grozny - Wikipedia

Also similar ir worse in Syria and Georgia.
This time it is playing out in public, the whole world is watchimg.

In economic terms, all those tanks, helicopters, air-defence, and planes cost a lot of money. In this war Russia is suffering heavier losses.

The Ukrainians knew what kind of war they were fighting before it started.

All those buildings can be rebuilt, getting civilians out is important.
 
Initially I was skeptical when he said the global market was ending. I don't completely agree with that, I think it's going to morph, but he makes a lot of good points overall.

I think what's going to happen is the global market is going to shrink from including everyone to only including partners that are reliably going to be there tomorrow. Countries with stable economies will continues to trade with one another and some countries will specialize in some things. Fr example during the pandemic we had a lot of problems with counterfeit PPE because China had cornered the market before the pandemic and a lot of dodgy players got into the game, sometimes using the logos of reliable brands.

If the PPE market was controlled by a country with better consumer protections and a more responsible government, that wouldn't have happened. The disruptions probably would have been less dramatic because that country's government would have made more of an effort to work with other developed countries. Production expansion would have been more transparent and reliable.

I could see a global market with virtually all of Europe, North America, New Zealand, Australia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, and some other stable economies all participating as they have been, but only with each other. The developing world would be out until they could get their economies stable and then they would be let into the fold.

He does make some good points about China and Russia.

There is an economic theory that has tended to hold true in just about every country in the modern era. Most people when they reach their early 50s, they drop their consumer spending. That's usually the age where children are leaving home and people get serious about rat-holing money for retirement. Also retirees are a net drain on an economy. When the retiree population gets too big, the economy goes into the doldrums.

Japan hit that point in the early 90s. They have had more retirees than working people for the last 30 years and it's dragged down their economy. When that generational cadre finally dies off and the number f retirees isn't so large, Japan's economy will come roaring back. It's taken a long time in Japan because they live so long. Other countries who hit that mark will have a shorter period of doldrums.

China is right on the cusp of that now and their generational difference is vastly larger than Japan's ever was. With the screwiness from the Chinese Communist Party and their tendency too hide the ball whenever there are problems hoping they will go away, the impact on China will likely be much more than just doldrums. They will probably go into a depression.

I didn't know the US was industrializing like it is, but that's good news. Somebody is going to have to pick up the pieces when China falls apart.

Russia is also facing a serious demographic cliff too. In the case of Russia they have one of the shortest expected life spans in the developed world so their period of retiree drag will probably not be as great, but he doesn't mention the generational divide Russia has between the cold war generations and post cold war generations. When the post cold war generations take control, Russia will be a very different place.



There seems to be a rush to try and blame the US for this war. Most of it coming from Americans. Some say it's US oil policy and some say it's due to the neocons wanting a new cold war.

US oil policy has caused a lot of problems in the world. Iran is the way it is today because the US and UK overthrew a duly elected president of Iran in the 1950s and replaced him with the Shah. Iraq is what it is in part because somebody who didn't understand the Middle East was drawing lines on a map in the 1920s and the US made it worse by trying regime change there in 2003.

US foreign policy has had a minor role in this conflict. NATO has been growing eastward and the old cold warriors in Russia don't like it, but the more they try to do something about it, the more Eastern Europe wants to be in NATO. The Eastern European countries joining NATO was more about the western allies acquiescing to demands than something the western countries were actively seeking out. But allowing NATO too grow eastward did make Putin nervous.

Oil and gas politics plays a role too, but the US has taken less of an active role in the dance Putin has played with Europe and oil politics. It was more about how much Germany was cuddling up to Russia and how much the rest of Europe was uncomfortable with that. Geographically Russian oil and gas is a natural fit for Europe. It's a supply that can be brought into Europe by pipeline, something not easily done from other sources.

But ultimately over 90% of the blame for this war sits on the shoulders of one person: Vladimir Putin and all the hand wringing about US oil policy and foreign policy is just a distraction right now. That's such a minor part of this war that it's not the time to talk about it.

Talk about how we can change energy policy to be less dependent on oil in general as well as how to deal with the shortages in raw materials coming out of Russia in the coming years are going to affect us are things we should be the side conversations we've been having. We can blame ourselves for our failings later. We have one world crisis that's going to lead to other crisis that will impact the world economy.
Some of your points are interesting, some overdone.
One example: retirees are not a net drain on any economy. Their expenditures are very different from young families, but not necessarily lower. Check out expenditures on, say, medical services, cruises, RV, financial services, to name a few categories. Wealth distribution among retirees is typically higher for retirees than for other populations although income levels tend to be lower. The US, specifically, is deeply distorted now by the last few years of rapidly disproportionate stock market gains and rising real property prices. Both of these are certainly not permanent characteristics.

The issue that IS serious in an aging populace is that in numerous countries the population is shrinking because reproduction is below the replacement rate. THAT is the problem, not retirees. That makes immigration from more areas of prolific reproduction, policies to encourage reproduction and advances in automation necessary to avoid economic stagnation. Some countries do all of those things, some do none of them.

There were a few other points that oversimplify or distort actual facts. The China description is so over-the-top simplistic and distorted that it actually clouds real problems for China. For Russia blaming everything on Putin is rather like blaming Hitler for all of European WWII, when the WWI rigid reparations rules destroyed the odds of German healthy recovery. It is also akin to blaming Trump or Biden for everything wrong with the USA at the moment. All those names made huge mistakes, some egregious, some with clear nefarious intent. Clear reality shows these people and their times did not happen without large social and economic upheaval to provide openings for dysfunctional governance.

Bluntly, happenings in the world are strongly influenced by outsized personalities, for good or bad. The personalities through, are creatures of their times.
People desperately need to study history in order to avoid repeating historical mistakes.
 
Didn't know much of Grozny, but surprisingly sounds like they are using the same playbook: Grozny - Wikipedia
Grozny was horrific. The difference in Chechnya and Ukraine is legion. Chechnya has a long history of tribal conflict and some had become radicalized after the fall of the USSR. Lots of criminal gangs and religious extremists used it as a base. Stupid stuff. The first war resulted in a pullout but then the banditry increased with radical islamic groups taking more control. The first war had greater Russian casualties, fyi.

In the end, Grozny was leveled, they fought block by block. It was a fraction of the size of Ukraine/Kiev. A fraction of the population, and the neighboring country (georgia) not having an ability to supply or support them to any extent nor really wanting to.
 
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A sensible summary of the military situation

Russian losses to date (8-March, i.e. day 12)
 
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Fun fact about plugshare. It appears that deleted 'reviews' still count toward the check-in total so you can tabulate how many deletions have occurred. One site has 312 Check-ins and >250 have been removed. Question: Why is plugshare defending Russia? 2nd Question: Why aren't they catching more flak?
Why not create a thread on this ?
Try and get this info about plugshare to some sort of news outlet. And/or some sort of social media action group. That's probably the best thing one can do to get people to start spamming them to get out of Russia through phone, mail, online-chats and social media.
 
Also similar ir worse in Syria and Georgia.
This time it is playing out in public, the whole world is watchimg.

In economic terms, all those tanks, helicopters, air-defence, and planes cost a lot of money. In this war Russia is suffering heavier losses.

The Ukrainians knew what kind of war they were fighting before it started.

All those buildings can be rebuilt, getting civilians out is important.
This war is different from all other wars in one respect, and only one: This rime there is effectively real time social media coverage. Except for that this reflects traditional Russian military practice, albeit with 'advances' in destructive technology. Even using serfs as conscripted 'cannon fodder' is traditional practice.
In other conflicts the global powers tended to be indifferent, with a few exceptions, like the British in the Crimea war not quite two centuries ago.
This time the global media shows there are handsome White people being attacked by the 'Russian hordes.'

Having lived in four war zones I suggest that "war is hell". Whether it is General LeMay "we should bomb North Vietnam into a perking lot", Putin randomly killing Afghans, wiping out the World Heritage of Aleppo, Firebombing Dresden or dropping nuclear bombs. No matter the cases, wanting killing happens in war.
The victors claim moral high ground, the losers are vilified.

This does sicken me, but mostly I really hate war. The only winners are the military equipment providers. 'Peace through Superior Firepower' is the mantra.
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." Isaac Asimov, Russian-born himself.
 

Interesting read which doesn’t exactly shine a beautiful light on the British establishment from any political leaning nor one of our leading educational facilities.
 
Some of your points are interesting, some overdone.
One example: retirees are not a net drain on any economy. Their expenditures are very different from young families, but not necessarily lower. Check out expenditures on, say, medical services, cruises, RV, financial services, to name a few categories. Wealth distribution among retirees is typically higher for retirees than for other populations although income levels tend to be lower. The US, specifically, is deeply distorted now by the last few years of rapidly disproportionate stock market gains and rising real property prices. Both of these are certainly not permanent characteristics.

The issue that IS serious in an aging populace is that in numerous countries the population is shrinking because reproduction is below the replacement rate. THAT is the problem, not retirees. That makes immigration from more areas of prolific reproduction, policies to encourage reproduction and advances in automation necessary to avoid economic stagnation. Some countries do all of those things, some do none of them.

There were a few other points that oversimplify or distort actual facts. The China description is so over-the-top simplistic and distorted that it actually clouds real problems for China. For Russia blaming everything on Putin is rather like blaming Hitler for all of European WWII, when the WWI rigid reparations rules destroyed the odds of German healthy recovery. It is also akin to blaming Trump or Biden for everything wrong with the USA at the moment. All those names made huge mistakes, some egregious, some with clear nefarious intent. Clear reality shows these people and their times did not happen without large social and economic upheaval to provide openings for dysfunctional governance.

Bluntly, happenings in the world are strongly influenced by outsized personalities, for good or bad. The personalities through, are creatures of their times.
People desperately need to study history in order to avoid repeating historical mistakes.
I don't often disagree but I will on the statement regarding Germany being pushed into WWII. It's one school of history that is increasingly disputed by more thorough research that showed Germans reparations were never actually particularly painful and were rarely paid. They were a trope for right wing nationalists that never accepted defeat in the first place. Payments themselves did not cause economic injury, the German economy was growing and with the exception of impacts due to the Great Depression it was decent growth and very little money was actually paid. Immediately after the fall of the German state the Prussian military leaders were organizing and conspiring to reorganize and prepare for the next war. This included a series of agreements with the USSR on aircraft development, pilot training, tank training, tank development, etc. Keeping armies in Lithuania and Latvia, sending new young officers the units to get combat experience. Germany stalled on payments for years, were forced into them by France occupying the Ruhr, and even then international banks worked to help germans with an unheard of 60 year payment process whereby the payments were a few percent of GDP. The German military, from the very end of WWI, actively worked to subvert the democratically elected government whom they blamed for the loss. Leaders moved into and out of nationalistic parties and into and out of the military. One concern the military did have was the rise of any rival organization and thus the Nazi leadership role in gutting their own armed wing to curry favor with the military.

More controversial is the role of the early armistice on the development of the next war. Germany did not suffer in WWI to the extent of France or Netherlands or Belgium. Physical infrastructure was virtually untouched except from digging up the water systems to melt lead pipes for bullets. Some historians consider that to have been the ultimate cause of WWI. If Germany had been truly occupied, crushed, as was done in WWII then you would likely never have seen the rise of the Nazi party (and other right wing parties) which was always implicitly supported by the German military, a military that railed against the democratically elected government. If the military leaders had been jailed for the war crimes they committed in WWI would you have had a WWII?

In any case, the German army leadership felt it had not been defeated at the end of the war but rather, not supported by the democratically elected government. They were planning the next war just as they planned the first (German preparations for WWI are a fascinating subject and despite the deliberate destruction of original source material it is still a good detective story). Even to the extent of cooperating with their enemy (communist govts) to develop technology and strategy, another fascinating read. German right wing (army thrown in there) were preparing for the next war as soon as the ink was dry. The payments were just a trope.

Beware any such messaging from Putin. This conflict is 100% on Putin. Ukraine was invaded. There are no Fascist (except for Russian ones). This was never about a few offshore oil platforms. There are no nuke weapons development programs (ok maybe they are? Good on Ukraine if so). Russia had no casus belli so they, as with most dictatorships have to invent one. Putin tried to invent several.

Lots of lessons here for the Ukraine conflict. Have the Ukrainians kill Russians (not NATO, no no fly zone- don't provide material to right wing russians to make excuses for their own failures). Don't make peace quickly. Take back Crimea. Don't let reparations for property damage be a long simmering boil to be used by Putin to further radicalize. Just take all the assets of Russia held overseas (Oligarchs too). Hold military leadership fully accountable. War crimes are being committed, the generals and other officers need to be held accountable. At this point, it would be hard to find a field commander whose forces had not committed war crimes. Every war may have civilian casualties. Firing rockets and artillery into residential apartments from 10 miles away is designed to cause terror, not harm the enemy. The Russian army leadership must be held accountable.

If the Ukrainians are fully committed let this bleed Russia dry. The longer it continues, the greater the local resistance, the refugee camps become your recruitment ground, weapons are provided the border is over 1000 miles long in terrain familiar to and useful for insurgency. Bleed them until Russia asks for help.
 
Will the Turks stop them from leaving the Black Sea?
This is all controlled by the Montreux Convention.

The Turks have set the dial to there being a state of war between two Black Sea nations, i.e. Ukraine and Russia. Accordingly this means warships from either/both nations may leave the Black Sea but not re-enter whilst hostilities continue. Basically the Turks would love the Russian vessels to leave and never come back. I rather suspects the Russian troops onboard feel the same way.

(There are further considerations to do with home-porting, but I'm not sure I fully understand them, and in any case it does not seem to apply as the Russian vessels currently in the Med aare AFAIK not home-ported in Black Sea).

 
This is a slight worry, a bit of a step up from the Russian troops Ukraine has been flighting:-

At least Ukraine should be prepared, and has good intelligence.

This looks like another play for the media back home. The Russians may have been able to bring up some supply in the last few days, but it would be impossible for them to compile assault level supplies under these circumstances. At best they only have enough supplies for an advance. (Assault level supply is for an al out effort to take a major objective, advance level supply is enough supply to take some ground and move your troops a bit forward.)

They are going up against a well dug in and prepared enemy who likely has no supply problems and is playing defense very close to their homes and into the largest city in the country that has now been turned into a fortification. The Russians have also completely failed to surround the city, which means the Ukrainians are getting regular resupply. Fighting with your back against the wall like the Ukrainians are doing is the best possible conditions for strong force cohesion.

The Germans put Leningrad into a siege fairly early in the war and never were able to break through even when the Wehrmacht was quite strong. Putin was born there and his parents survived the siege. You'd think he'd understand the mindset of the defenders.

The conditions in Kyiv are vastly better than Leningrad's were.

It seems a Ukrainian rocket battery (i.e. unguided Grads, both sides have these) hit the Russian patrol vessel yesterday night, in the Black Sea. The video at night shows the attack, followed by a subsequent secondary explosion on the ship (i.e. something got hit). The daytime pictures suggests it is still afloat but on fire. The ship will likely have been 5-10 miles offshore, certainly no more than 15-miles.

This shows that the Ukrainians still have a functioning sensor-to-shooter system operating on some of the Black Sea coast, including the ability to do target identification (i.e. they didn't just hit some random merchant vessel). It is actually quite impressive to hit such a vessel with such a weapon, this requires good teamwork.

This is the sort of thing that makes an amphibious task force wary of closing a coastline, might be why the Russians are still at sea. I think those ~5,000 troops are pretty much the only uncommitted troop reserves the Russian have left.



(Re whether it was a TB2 drone or a helicopter that hit the artillery battery, I don't know. I have seen a variety of different suggestions on the net in different voiceovers etc. I simply cannot see evidence in the photos/videos to be sure. My personal suspicion is a drone but it could be a helicopter, indeed possibly the one that was lost).

(1.7 million refugees have left Ukraine so far. The UK has granted them 300 visas so far. Shameful.)

That's amazing shooting. The Grad is basically a modernized WW II Katyusha rocket launcher. They are not precision weapons.

Some of your points are interesting, some overdone.
One example: retirees are not a net drain on any economy. Their expenditures are very different from young families, but not necessarily lower. Check out expenditures on, say, medical services, cruises, RV, financial services, to name a few categories. Wealth distribution among retirees is typically higher for retirees than for other populations although income levels tend to be lower. The US, specifically, is deeply distorted now by the last few years of rapidly disproportionate stock market gains and rising real property prices. Both of these are certainly not permanent characteristics.

The issue that IS serious in an aging populace is that in numerous countries the population is shrinking because reproduction is below the replacement rate. THAT is the problem, not retirees. That makes immigration from more areas of prolific reproduction, policies to encourage reproduction and advances in automation necessary to avoid economic stagnation. Some countries do all of those things, some do none of them.

There were a few other points that oversimplify or distort actual facts. The China description is so over-the-top simplistic and distorted that it actually clouds real problems for China. For Russia blaming everything on Putin is rather like blaming Hitler for all of European WWII, when the WWI rigid reparations rules destroyed the odds of German healthy recovery. It is also akin to blaming Trump or Biden for everything wrong with the USA at the moment. All those names made huge mistakes, some egregious, some with clear nefarious intent. Clear reality shows these people and their times did not happen without large social and economic upheaval to provide openings for dysfunctional governance.

Bluntly, happenings in the world are strongly influenced by outsized personalities, for good or bad. The personalities through, are creatures of their times.
People desperately need to study history in order to avoid repeating historical mistakes.

I don't blame all the problems in Russia on Putin. When the Soviets collapsed organized crime moved in and Putin basically became the crime boss. The entire management of the country is corrupt to the core. But this war is completely sitting on Putin's shoulders. The various leaks coming out of the Kremlin made it clear that the military and FSB were either kept in the dark, or if they did know, they thought it was a nutty idea.

The video I was commenting on had other issues facing China that I also agree with. Retirees in, I think, every developed country get some sort of government pension and state paid medical care they either do not pay for at all or only pay a nominal amount for. An area where even the United States is as socialist as the rest of the developed world. The working population pay for the retirees' pensions and medical care with their taxes. The guy being interviewed in the video touches on this, but the effects it has on the overall economy has been covered in a lot of depth in other places. I can't find the sources right now, it was years ago I read a more in depth piece about it.

Some retirees can spend money on luxuries, but they don't tend to be buying larger houses, extra food, diapers, children's clothes and all the other things people of child bearing age buy. Most people over about age 52 are more concerned about saving money than spending it. Those who are wealthy might be buying a second yacht, but most middle and lower class over 52s are economizing. I've seen multiple economists comment on this phenomenon and it's fairly universal in industrialized countries. The interviewee in the video mentions it in passing.

If each generation is the same size and the old age pension program is working correctly, the working population pays for the retirees and the strain on the economy is not that great and is not that noticeable. But if a smaller generation follows a large one when it retires, the economy goes wobbly for a while until the older generation can get offset by a younger generation spending. That's either through old age attrition, or a larger young generation coming of age.

Even though it's not popular most white countries with low birth rates have opened their doors to non-white immigration in the last couple of decades. This is to prevent hitting that economic cliff when the older whites start retiring and their kids and grand kids don't number enough to pay their pensions without taking a bigger bite of their paychecks.

The sanctions and reparations from WW I did leave the Germans feeling resentful, but much of Europe and especially central and eastern Europe in the 20s and 30s had a battle going on between 3 political forces: pro-democracy people, communists, and nationalist authoritarians. The pro-democracy types initially got control in Germany and established the Weimar Republic, but the battles between the nationalists and communists consumed all the political oxygen until the nationalists took control.

Today much of the world is still mired in a political dichotomy, but one of the tried from the 20s and 30s is pretty much dead (communism). Now the battles are between the authoritarian nationalists and the pro-democracy people. Some nationalists have gotten elected in some democracies and those countries have been wobbling. Though the world is getting a shining picture right now of what happens when an authoritarian nationalist decides to destroy the world order for reasons that are still unknown.