Cheburashka
Active Member
Human rights violations are necessary? Already then... glad we have that sorted out!
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Say no to Saudi Arabia
- Thread starter notacoalminer
- Start date
Human rights violations are necessary? Already then... glad we have that sorted out!
Lasairfion
Member
How is this relevant to the conversation?
All these people bringing in all these issues that have nothing to do with the issue at hand...
p.s. Note the source of that piece of journalism. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. A Crown Corporation. You won't see that in Saudi...
I don't understand all the whataboutisms and saying no to Saudi.
You shouldn't care who funds Tesla for this take over. The mission is to save ALL OF humanity from climate change. You don't get to choose who you want to save based on some criteria you made up because another group of people are under a different rule/law/culture. That makes you no better than the same people you are criticizing. As a health professional, we all had to take the Hippocratic oath in which we need to heal all of humanity, not just the good ones. I have rapist coding in the ED and every one of us give 100% to make sure this person is saved. The good always outweighs the bad, and isn't that what Elon is hoping to save?.
You shouldn't care who funds Tesla for this take over. The mission is to save ALL OF humanity from climate change. You don't get to choose who you want to save based on some criteria you made up because another group of people are under a different rule/law/culture. That makes you no better than the same people you are criticizing. As a health professional, we all had to take the Hippocratic oath in which we need to heal all of humanity, not just the good ones. I have rapist coding in the ED and every one of us give 100% to make sure this person is saved. The good always outweighs the bad, and isn't that what Elon is hoping to save?.
While I think I generally agree with you, different people have different priorities in life. Some people value the environment, others value human rights, while I'd say the majority of ppl value their wallet and little else. Frankly I think environmental concerns are weighed way too low by society overall. You can't get a job if you can't breath the air! But that's the thing... we all have to live in the world where decisions we often don't agree with are made.
The Saudi's are really not a nice group of ppl at the end of the day. Anytime you have religious fundamentalists exerting a strong influence over society, you generally end up with a shithole. That's really the heart of most people's objections I think, the behaviour that follows from having an extremist religion as state ideology. Note I'm not being anti-Islamic per se. I know a ton of Persians who are all quite normal. You'd never think that from reading the news. You see the videos of Saudi's racing their BMW's, while dragging a guy in sandals, I don't think those ppl are overly religious.
Personally I think I'm *ok* with the Saudi's buying in, so long as they don't have controlling ownership, and Elon is comfortable with the power structure, but damn.... it really would be nice if he could find someone else.
Most of what I'm saying here is really just attempting to set straight the various apologists for the regime.
jacobp
Member
And you would have no trouble if you knew that the profits from the sale of Teslas was going to a murderous, thug, regime that beheads people, subjugates women, etc. etc. As I asked someone before, would you have a bought a VW in the 1930s, knowing that the profits of that sale were going to exterminate 6 million Jews?
I know for a fact with 100% certainty that Tesla's profit already goes to child molesters, murderers, con artists, or insert whatever the heck you want. Tesla is a public traded company and any of the described people already bought Tesla shares..you just don't know who. I am supporting Tesla, whoever makes money off Tesla is just the consequences of their success and there's nothing you can do about it if it was sold to the Saudi or Jesus himself.
I do care. Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't care about.
Your post confuses matters, and it's hard to parse things apart, but I'll try.
I'm not talking about 'who to save'. I'm talking about who might get a large stake in Tesla, a large amount of power in Tesla, and a large profit from Tesla. I'm talking about who I don't want to do business with, who I don't want to associate with, not whether or not I'd save their lives in the ER.
As for "different rule/law/culture"...
Sentencing people to death for being gay or trying to leave Islam is not "different". Beheading people and stringing up their bodies in the public square is not "different". It's abhorrent. It's unacceptable. I should not have to explain this. It's sad that it seems that I do need to.
Criticizing this makes me no better than them?
Just. Stop.
suwaneedad
Member
Personally, I expect human rights violations to increase as the Middle East continues to lose its grip on the global economy via the globe's dependence on oil. So in that sense, if owning a chunk of Tesla in a small way helps the Saudis cushion the blow of reduced global value for oil, it could be best for human rights for the Saudis to own a big chunk of Tesla.
I expect there is a 0% chance of Elon enabling the Saudis to have a controlling stake in Tesla. Too obvious that the Saudis would shut down Tesla to once again Kill the Electric Car in order to help preserve their cash cow: black gold. I don't expect Elon to agree to any terms that fall short of Elon having control, in fact.
I stopped being an American with high-horse human rights principles when Bush decided to invade countries in a vain attempt to install democracy where none was desired/needed. Pathetic, with the blood of tens of thousands of humans on his hands. So I won't judge the Saudis vis-a-vis the USA in this regard.
If I'm the OP, I defer delivery of my car until I have some clarity whether the Saudis are going to become bigger owners of Tesla, assuming OP feels morally OK today taking delivery of a Tesla with the Saudis merely benefitting to the tune of their existing 5% ownership. (Itself, a question for OP.) I also sell my Tesla stock, not wishing to own a company that the Saudis own 5% of. OP, I'm sorry this Saudi situation depresses you, and hope you can recover from your funk. I take some solace in the fact that lots of countries that do bad things own parts of companies, and lots of companies do bad things as well of course. Humanity is nothing if not flawed.
I expect there is a 0% chance of Elon enabling the Saudis to have a controlling stake in Tesla. Too obvious that the Saudis would shut down Tesla to once again Kill the Electric Car in order to help preserve their cash cow: black gold. I don't expect Elon to agree to any terms that fall short of Elon having control, in fact.
I stopped being an American with high-horse human rights principles when Bush decided to invade countries in a vain attempt to install democracy where none was desired/needed. Pathetic, with the blood of tens of thousands of humans on his hands. So I won't judge the Saudis vis-a-vis the USA in this regard.
If I'm the OP, I defer delivery of my car until I have some clarity whether the Saudis are going to become bigger owners of Tesla, assuming OP feels morally OK today taking delivery of a Tesla with the Saudis merely benefitting to the tune of their existing 5% ownership. (Itself, a question for OP.) I also sell my Tesla stock, not wishing to own a company that the Saudis own 5% of. OP, I'm sorry this Saudi situation depresses you, and hope you can recover from your funk. I take some solace in the fact that lots of countries that do bad things own parts of companies, and lots of companies do bad things as well of course. Humanity is nothing if not flawed.
A large group of people who believes in some ancient text with ancient rules/law. It's not for me to judge because many people in the U.S also believes in some ancient text with another ancient set of rules. I don't care who is right or wrong because people grew up in different cultures. You find them abhorrent and guess what, they may also find you abhorrent. Hey I'm totally down for getting rid of all religion but I'm not going to impose my nonbelief on others here.
Now this is the rub isn't it? Religious fundamentalists (not just Muslim ones) certainly do not share this view with you. They will quite happily, at the cost of your life and/or liberty, impose theirs on you. This is my issue with religion at the end of the day, and it's why I think the chill religions (Hinduism, Buddism, Confusianism) are the best ones.
Lasairfion
Member
My point is that even the most unassuming countries (and Canada was mentioned earlier in the thread in opposition to Saudi Arabia) are not as innocent as they may appear.
You can find something to complain about with most countries. And yes, for our western sentiments it's a much longer list with the middle eastern countries, but I still don't see what that has to do with them investing money in Tesla bonds/stocks etc. The free market we operate in allows anyone to do business. They have money to invest and unlike certain African diamond mines' blood money it's not directly linked to the specific human rights issues raised.
I honestly believe that we have a much better chance of influencing people for the better through our dealings than by not dealing with them at all. Not dealing with people at all is how we ended up with North Korea.
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Barklikeadog
Active Member
Apple has already set the standard and all of their believers just look the other way. bathroom law in south carolina... omigod nooo we won't do business in that state. rights are being violated. etc etc.
labor violations in china... censorship, selling devices to millions of nasty people who execute lbgtq or non believers. no problem! here's a device, thanks for the $$$. Apple is opening their first store in Saudi Arabia next year. Not because of any rights violation, but because the saudi gov't has restricted foreign companies from coming in. but hey they stood their ground on the barhroom law
They don't share the same view as me, and they are not imposing anything on me. They are not the ones who are canceling Teslas and dumping Tesla shares because the majority of Tesla share holders are Christians and from countries who see them as terrorists.
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