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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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An update on my idea of selling long-term BPS to avoid weekly trading... didn't quite go as planned because I saw an opportunity to get out with about 45% profit, figured I will get an opportunity to open these up again over the next few months.

On 3/7 I opened 10x 500/700 BPS for 12/16 for $70K, bought back today for $42K, profit $28K.

On 3/14 I opened 20x 450/650 BPS for 12/16 for $131K, bought back today for $70K, profit $61K.
Seems to me you've stumbled onto a perfect balance for what you want. Long-term and conservative so it's stress free, but take the profits and reset when appropriate.

Going long is great. Taking advantage of all this Wall Street conjured volatility is also great.

Keep going!
 
Looking ahead a week and a half we have the production report soon. I'm trying to figure out whether we'll see it before / during trading on Friday 4/1. I went looking for a history of the production reports and more importantly the dates when they were released.

At the moment I'm thinking this quarter's production report will be sometime after close of trading day on Friday, and thus expect a post P/D report pop to happen on Monday 4/4.


But that is really a guess that sounds reasonable to me - anybody have some historical data? Has Tesla ever announced quarterly production during trading on the 1st of the month?
IIRC, Rob Mauer keep's track of this and I think he mentioned it has been consistent, and he is expecting it on 2 days after quarter end, i.e. Sat 4/2

vague memory, all I think I recall is the 4/2 date ... :) .... video from 3-4 days back ...

+ IIRC street @ 312K, troy_teslike @ 319K
 
has anyone else thought of intentionally opening an ITM BPS?

for ex, STO 12/16 BPS x100 -p1200/+p1100 credit $675,000

assuming that war is over and "everyone" knows sp will be >1200 in Dec, is there any other risk? i know that:
  • weeklies will give more $ income overall (but it's so stressful)
  • theta collection is slow until yearend is approaching
  • i can always BTC anytime when profit is already good (ie 50%)
  • i can use the $675k to sell 30% OTM 5 DTE trades while waiting for 12/16
what am i missing or haven't thought of? TIA!
I am short both 1400 and 1200 puts for July. Does that qualify?
I prefer my payments in large chunks and eating big meals during intermittent fasting ;)
 
IIRC, Rob Mauer keep's track of this and I think he mentioned it has been consistent, and he is expecting it on 2 days after quarter end, i.e. Sat 4/2

vague memory, all I think I recall is the 4/2 date ... :) .... video from 3-4 days back ...

+ IIRC street @ 312K, troy_teslike @ 319K


Yup, and FWIW the Q narrative is already ramping up that this is "basically flat from Q4" and the fact even SR delivery dates have shrunk down to just a few months is collapsing demand, not a reflection of expecting new production.
 
Yup, and FWIW the Q narrative is already ramping up that this is "basically flat from Q4" and the fact even SR delivery dates have shrunk down to just a few months is collapsing demand, not a reflection of expecting new production.

Basically leveraging a narrative off the one-time charges from 4Q. That's why I think we see them try to sell the news after P&D. There were probably 15 fewer working days in the quarter. Then massive earnings/margins hits and blows the top off. IMO everyone's model breaks down after either 1Q or 2Q earnings, it'll be too irrational to ignore.

Still not buying anything and just waiting to expire my January apocalypse BPS that were moved to 5/20, BUT as we inch closer to earnings I'd love to see some shenanigans push down to $950 or even just hold us to $1000 right up until earnings. Everyone is gun shy from so many sell-the-earnings-news events, but I'm a call buyer for 4/29 & 5/20 if I can get em cheap right up til earnings.
 
has anyone else thought of intentionally opening an ITM BPS?

for ex, STO 12/16 BPS x100 -p1200/+p1100 credit $675,000

assuming that war is over and "everyone" knows sp will be >1200 in Dec, is there any other risk? i know that:
  • weeklies will give more $ income overall (but it's so stressful)
  • theta collection is slow until yearend is approaching
  • i can always BTC anytime when profit is already good (ie 50%)
  • i can use the $675k to sell 30% OTM 5 DTE trades while waiting for 12/16
what am i missing or haven't thought of? TIA!
Sounds scary to me. Then again you receive a 67% of capital at risk credit up front while also starting at a max loss. So a $325k loss when you open the position with Dec '22 as the resolution date. Moving over 1200 between now and December sounds pretty reasonable to me as well, but the overall position is directional and requires the share price to be up. If the macro environment stays bad, Tesla may not care and continue powering through it. But a single bad / meets expectations quarterly report might be enough to stop the shares from ever reaching $1200 this year.

So I see a position that is directional and entirely dependent on Tesla's excellent history of success continuing for at least the remainder of the year, and the macro avoiding a complete meltdown.


I guess a related question - can those 30% OTM trades earn the $325k loss over the 10 months in a reliable fashion? How much weekly credit will that need to be. If the $675k in up front cash reasonably generate the ~50% return over the 10 months, then you're into a worst case break even / zero gain situation, and the possibility of $1M earning $1M over the year. That sounds like a great outcome to me.

I wonder how much that initial credit changes if it were a 1100/1000 BPS. Or maybe a $50 wide BPS. Or ... Since you're starting out in a max loss position, my instant thought is a wide spread isn't all that important. The only real management is a share price greater than the short leg plus the intervening distant put sales.

Another possible issue - do you have the discipline to stay really far / stress free OTM with the ongoing weekly put sales? If you start getting more aggressive with CSP sales, or even selling BPS with that incremental cash, and then start getting a little bit more aggressive, and a little bit more, then you get back to the more stressful work while also creating more and more leverage.


My instant reaction is more ITM cash secured puts. Maybe I'm just risk averse, but in such a way that I create extra risk. What I mean - that $1M would support 8 of the -p1200. The Dec 1200 puts are priced at $320, so selling those as CSP is only good for $32k * 8 = $256k. In theory $960k of the $1M is at risk but a max loss would only occur at a share price of $0 and holding to expiration.

This might be a case where the really big up front credit plus the strong expectation of gains is the better approach.


This is interesting - the -1300/+1250 has a 75% credit. So 200 of these has $1M at risk while producing $750k in up front cash. H'mm... Thanks for bringing the idea up - I need to think through possibilities for myself. I've got a big whack of cash to raise in the next few weeks for taxes. Maybe a trade along these lines will be better for me.

It does look like a $50 wide spread will be the minimum at this later date - maybe smaller using Jan '23. In Dec '22 I only saw strikes that were multiples of $50.


EDIT: The other issue to be aware of - the bid/ask spread is $10 or so. On a $50 wide spread that is a huge difference in results. My numbers are from the midpoint. If you can't get the midpoint of the b/a spread the results fall off fast. Then again if you can beat the midpoint, the results improve fast :)
 
Yup, and FWIW the Q narrative is already ramping up that this is "basically flat from Q4" and the fact even SR delivery dates have shrunk down to just a few months is collapsing demand, not a reflection of expecting new production.


Q4 (EOY) usually is the strongest quarter. If Q1 is basically flat (like last year), it means Q1 is actually good.
past 3 years, only 21Q1 was better than Q420 (& by 4K) HyperCharts 📊

cheers!!
 
... is there any other risk? i know that:
  • weeklies will give more $ income overall (but it's so stressful)
  • theta collection is slow until yearend is approaching

At risk of sounding like a smart-ass ;) I would like to point out that this leads to incorrect conclusions. Shorter term contracts have more premium (and higher decay) for same strike because the risk of ending ITM is higher

One can have a weekly position with similar total yearly premium as yearly one, simply by adjusting risk level down to match risk of yearly option. This can be done by going further OTM or widening spread.

Premium on yearly $1000 PUT is less than 52 x weekly $1000 PUT premium because the risk to you as the seller is less than 52x larger. This might sound counter intuitive but risk and premium does not increase linearly but with square root of time (you can think about it as random stock moves sometimes ending up cancelling each other over time). On top of that long term IV is also typically lower.

The point is that this weekly/monthly/yearly dilemma is all largely priced in, the market is broadly speaking efficient and the risk level and premium largely align. The premium is only very slightly overpriced ... thats why selling options statistically produces income.

Also there is data showing that income from premium mispricing is much smaller than 50% .. more like 20% - after infrequent but major wipeouts are accounted for and assuming taking on comparable level of risk as stock holding. One can increase stock holding return with leverage same way as with options by adjusting spread width/strike price. What counts is the expected return for same risk level. This is basic Capital Asset Pricing Model (Capital Asset Pricing Model (CAPM)).

In my opinion the choice of duration and strike should not be about potential gain as that can be dialed up/down with risk as I've tried to explain above ^ - rather the choice should come down to:
1. At which time frame I am more likely to make better SP and volatility guess than Wall Street?
2. Am I diversified enough to survive wrong guess or two and be able to continue play the game - as @adiggs pointed out this is very concentrated (both in target price and time), directional bet.
 
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Sounds scary to me. Then again you receive a 67% of capital at risk credit up front while also starting at a max loss. So a $325k loss when you open the position with Dec '22 as the resolution date. Moving over 1200 between now and December sounds pretty reasonable to me as well, but the overall position is directional and requires the share price to be up. If the macro environment stays bad, Tesla may not care and continue powering through it. But a single bad / meets expectations quarterly report might be enough to stop the shares from ever reaching $1200 this year.

So I see a position that is directional and entirely dependent on Tesla's excellent history of success continuing for at least the remainder of the year, and the macro avoiding a complete meltdown.


I guess a related question - can those 30% OTM trades earn the $325k loss over the 10 months in a reliable fashion? How much weekly credit will that need to be. If the $675k in up front cash reasonably generate the ~50% return over the 10 months, then you're into a worst case break even / zero gain situation, and the possibility of $1M earning $1M over the year. That sounds like a great outcome to me.

I wonder how much that initial credit changes if it were a 1100/1000 BPS. Or maybe a $50 wide BPS. Or ... Since you're starting out in a max loss position, my instant thought is a wide spread isn't all that important. The only real management is a share price greater than the short leg plus the intervening distant put sales.

Another possible issue - do you have the discipline to stay really far / stress free OTM with the ongoing weekly put sales? If you start getting more aggressive with CSP sales, or even selling BPS with that incremental cash, and then start getting a little bit more aggressive, and a little bit more, then you get back to the more stressful work while also creating more and more leverage.


My instant reaction is more ITM cash secured puts. Maybe I'm just risk averse, but in such a way that I create extra risk. What I mean - that $1M would support 8 of the -p1200. The Dec 1200 puts are priced at $320, so selling those as CSP is only good for $32k * 8 = $256k. In theory $960k of the $1M is at risk but a max loss would only occur at a share price of $0 and holding to expiration.

This might be a case where the really big up front credit plus the strong expectation of gains is the better approach.


This is interesting - the -1300/+1250 has a 75% credit. So 200 of these has $1M at risk while producing $750k in up front cash. H'mm... Thanks for bringing the idea up - I need to think through possibilities for myself. I've got a big whack of cash to raise in the next few weeks for taxes. Maybe a trade along these lines will be better for me.

It does look like a $50 wide spread will be the minimum at this later date - maybe smaller using Jan '23. In Dec '22 I only saw strikes that were multiples of $50.


EDIT: The other issue to be aware of - the bid/ask spread is $10 or so. On a $50 wide spread that is a huge difference in results. My numbers are from the midpoint. If you can't get the midpoint of the b/a spread the results fall off fast. Then again if you can beat the midpoint, the results improve fast :)
Thanks @Yoona and @adiggs for this. Definitely worth thinking about.

Theorem: There is always a way that it can be worse.

What happens if TSLA drops significantly some time before expiry? Remember that you (hypothetical you, Yoona in the thought exercise) are not in control of the exercise of the short put. Your example is -$200/+$100 in the money, and the price difference (your credit) is $675k. Suppose TSLA drops to $500 while you are holding. The holdings are now -$700/+$600 in the money, so let's look at the prices for $1700 and $1600 puts now. (That's not quite the same as your example, the numbers moved a bit. Also I have no idea whether this is a reasonable approximation.) Bid on $1700 put is $725.80 (as I type), ask on $1600 is $646.75, difference $790,500 for the 100 contracts. So to buy your way out of the position would today cost you somewhat more ($115k) than what you made. Actually the worst thing for you would be an early exercise of the short leg, then you'd exercise the long leg, and your loss would be the maximum $325k as it would be at expiry. I think the longer you hold, the closer to the theoretical maximum loss it gets.
 
I think if I had cash or adequate margin I would just be selling -1000 Puts for Jan 2023 for $200. Worst case you get shares in January for cost basis of $800. I would pay taxes in April 2024 with small penalty. Or, -1200 for $325.

I was thinking the same or even -1200 Jan 2024 puts for $42k cost basis $780. I am waiting for a down which should be coming lol.
 
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Looking ahead a week and a half we have the production report soon. I'm trying to figure out whether we'll see it before / during trading on Friday 4/1. I went looking for a history of the production reports and more importantly the dates when they were released.

At the moment I'm thinking this quarter's production report will be sometime after close of trading day on Friday, and thus expect a post P/D report pop to happen on Monday 4/4.


But that is really a guess that sounds reasonable to me - anybody have some historical data? Has Tesla ever announced quarterly production during trading on the 1st of the month?

Rob Maurer covered this yesterday in his youtube cast. Expected P&D release date is Sat 4/2. It's been 2 days after the EoQ for 6 quarters in a row now. Before that it fluctuated from 2-4 days after EoQ. I don't believe it has ever been released the day after EoQ.
 
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I think if I had cash or adequate margin I would just be selling -1000 Puts for Jan 2023 for $200. Worst case you get shares in January for cost basis of $800. I would pay taxes in April 2024 with small penalty. Or, -1200 for $325.
I was thinking the same or even -1200 Jan 2024 puts for $42k cost basis $780. I am waiting for a down which should be coming lol.
These are great plays for those of us who expect the SP to rise over the next year or two.

But assuming 100% cash covered (in an IRA), there are opportunity costs to consider. Specifically, the opportunity cost of NOT being long more TSLA. This is what I'm thinking through right now as I am short some CCs which I may just let get exercised rather than continuing to roll.
 
has anyone else thought of intentionally opening an ITM BPS?

for ex, STO 12/16 BPS x100 -p1200/+p1100 credit $675,000

assuming that war is over and "everyone" knows sp will be >1200 in Dec, is there any other risk? i know that:
  • weeklies will give more $ income overall (but it's so stressful)
  • theta collection is slow until yearend is approaching
  • i can always BTC anytime when profit is already good (ie 50%)
  • i can use the $675k to sell 30% OTM 5 DTE trades while waiting for 12/16
what am i missing or haven't thought of? TIA!
I'm not really not getting why put spreads?
If you open 12/16 x10 -p1200, credit will be around $320K ($320 per put), and required capital to secure it around 550K (this will increase if price drops) (I am assuming you need 1M margin to start the trade, but am I wrong, and you need only $325K?)

Now, naked put strategy wins as long as directionally we're not too too wrong, i.e. at expiration time any price above $880 is a winner
Spread wins only if price is over $1133

In terms of defence, if we're under a $1000, you're at max loss with spreads (325K). For example price is $900, you can't do anything
With naked put, yes, you're in loss for around $110K (10x100x(1013-900)), but if things turn for worse trough the year, you can always buy some cheap puts ($400 or something), and then roll for another 6 months, or a year.

So, in my view, naked put is easier to defend, has larger set of positive outcomes, and offers less robust yet much safer ROI, though it demands occasionally tracking margin. You can minimize this by opening even less puts at the cost of ROI.

BTW, I'm Canadian. AFAIK, those two types of margin you keep talking about(portfolio vs. ???) don't apply to us, same with daytrading etc... Maybe margin callc. isn't quite the same for USA ppl. At this point of time, I need 87K to open one put that would pay me $31.8K, i.e effective margin around 55K
 
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has anyone else thought of intentionally opening an ITM BPS?

for ex, STO 12/16 BPS x100 -p1200/+p1100 credit $675,000

assuming that war is over and "everyone" knows sp will be >1200 in Dec, is there any other risk? i know that:
  • weeklies will give more $ income overall (but it's so stressful)
  • theta collection is slow until yearend is approaching
  • i can always BTC anytime when profit is already good (ie 50%)
  • i can use the $675k to sell 30% OTM 5 DTE trades while waiting for 12/16
what am i missing or haven't thought of? TIA!
Continuing to think about this - I've got a tax bill due in the next month and it has me thinking about whether I'm better off paying the bill or using the tax money (and then some) for something like this to raise the tax cash.

Doing some math gymnastics in my head, and including taxes on gains, I get a first order approximation that this would be a good idea for me. I'll be doing detailed math soon / this evening and see what it looks like. The fundamental problem with that tax bill is that it is large enough to represent a capital impairment - it'll make a dent in the resources I have for earning an income, so using that cash (plus some extra) that can pay the taxes is looking better than bad. I'll post later when I have details looking for mistakes and missing stuff.
 
FWIW for you (and others with large tax bills) consider doing some credit card signup offers....

You can typically net 5-10% of your tax bill back in cash from the sign up bonuses this way... (or a decent bit more than 5-10% if you use the rewards for travel purposes instead of cash) plus various other perks.

Plus it buys you roughly an extra month to make weekly $ off the cash in the market before you need to actually pay the bill with your own money... (or potentially a fair bit longer as some will also offer things like a year of 0% interest on your initial spend)
 
FWIW for you (and others with large tax bills) consider doing some credit card signup offers....

You can typically net 5-10% of your tax bill back in cash from the sign up bonuses this way... (or a decent bit more than 5-10% if you use the rewards for travel purposes instead of cash) plus various other perks.

Plus it buys you roughly an extra month to make weekly $ off the cash in the market before you need to actually pay the bill with your own money... (or potentially a fair bit longer as some will also offer things like a year of 0% interest on your initial spend)
do you have a link to an offer like this? i haven't seen one before - a whack at my tax bill like that would be really valuable
 
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do you have a link to an offer like this? i haven't seen one before - a whack at my tax bill like that would be really valuable
I'm assuming you have a 6 figure plus tax bill and very few cards will give you the credit limit you need. I did this 10 years ago when I graduated dental school to temporarily reduce interest on student loans

This site has a list of 0% offers. 12-21 months of 0% interest is possible, but the credit limit will be the limiting factor.
Best 0% APR and Low Interest Credit Cards of March 2022 - NerdWallet