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Sounds like there was more to the story reading the quote from Management.

That's right. They were forced to accept the drunk, stoned workers back by union thuggery. The quote from management refers to the way the story was reported to the public.

Look, I get that you think unionization would be great for Tesla. Personally, I think drunk and stoned assembly line workers would be bad for Tesla, and that's what you get with the UAW. To each his own...No use beating a dead horse here, neither of us is going to change our respective views of the UAW.
 
:(I have been on both sides of unions. I've been in decent unions and horrible unions. I've been in situations where I was thankful I was in a union and situations where I strongly believed that union leadership needed to be walked off a plank into a sea full of great whites. I can honestly say that that unions are not as necessary as they once were but, if there is a union , it should not have almost unlimited power AND it should be continually investigated for corruption.
 
That's right. They were forced to accept the drunk, stoned workers back by union thuggery. The quote from management refers to the way the story was reported to the public.

Look, I get that you think unionization would be great for Tesla. Personally, I think drunk and stoned assembly line workers would be bad for Tesla, and that's what you get with the UAW. To each his own...No use beating a dead horse here, neither of us is going to change our respective views of the UAW.

Agree to disagree:). To clarify I did not say that unionazation would be "great" for Tesla. If Elon can convince them things are good enough without a union that's fine. Ultimately it's up to the employees. If they want a union that's fine too.

Just like companies, there are good unions and bad unions.
 
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Tesla will unionize because production work is tedious and repetitive. Tesla will eventually unionize because it is something to do that is interesting and a bit exciting. It is simply a function of group dynamics. Unionization is philosophical is you are Musk or perhaps a TMC poster. It is not philosophical question if you are the guy putting seats into the model X.

I've worked in a UAW plant. If you have never worked in a large factory how do you have confidence in an opinion about what will happen at Tesla?
 
:(I have been on both sides of unions. I've been in decent unions and horrible unions. I've been in situations where I was thankful I was in a union and situations where I strongly believed that union leadership needed to be walked off a plank into a sea full of great whites. I can honestly say that that unions are not as necessary as they once were but, if there is a union , it should not have almost unlimited power AND it should be continually investigated for corruption.
I agree with your one size doesn't fit all assessment of labor unions, that said the UAW is one of the worst of all US labor unions.
 
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do you realize that
1, many german cars are actually built here in the US, some in UAW plants?
2, the plants in germany are usually unionized?

Yes, but from what I have read, there is a huge difference between German unions and the UAW. My comment was not aimed at unions generally, but specifically the UAW. Also, the BMWs we have are not produced in the U.S. It's the X series stuff that's made here. I'm pretty sure SC is a right-to-work state though, so I don't think the UAW is even present in the BMW plant here. Don't know about VW. I'm not trying to be overly dramatic. I just really do not like the UAW.
 
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Lots of personnel accidents in union shops as well. Some are worse than others.

Unions seem to argue about most anything, and bog down change. If Tesla wants to implement labor saving automation, the union will fight them tooth and nail, making production less safe, slower and more expensive.

I worked in union factories in Detroit. The totally changed the attitude of the workers, making them feel more entitled, and less willing to make efforts to increase productivity. We gamed the union rules all the time to get paid for not doing anything.
 
You seem to have missed my point. The NLRA is a relic. We now have a host of labor laws that protect workers. The EEOC is but one of many.
The EEOC is a separate entity and covers separate laws relating to civil rights. Implying that the EEOC covers what the NLRA covers is flat out wrong. The NLRA, whether it's a relic or not, is the only federal entity tasked with investigating and enforcing labor law violations by both employers and unions. Without it, there is no entity in the public or private sector that is tasked with enforcing labor law violations by employers/unions.
 
The EEOC is a separate entity and covers separate laws relating to civil rights. Implying that the EEOC covers what the NLRA covers is flat out wrong. The NLRA, whether it's a relic or not, is the only federal entity tasked with investigating and enforcing labor law violations by both employers and unions. Without it, there is no entity in the public or private sector that is tasked with enforcing labor law violations by employers/unions.

You are still missing my point. The NLRB only polices unions and union activity. There are existing state and federal labor laws that protect workers without regard to whether they are in a union and, in fact, make the alleged protections of the NLRA obsolete and moot.
 
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You are still missing my point. The NLRB only polices unions and union activity. There are existing state and federal labor laws that protect workers without regard to whether they are in a union and, in fact, make the alleged protections of the NLRA obsolete and moot.
Not true. It's not just about safety its about enforcing contracts and the process involved. As I pointed out an individual worker is much better off fighting a dispute with the power of the union and the NRLA behind him than all on his own. This is a major benefit and a big reason why companies don't want unions.
 
Here's my 2c, from the safety side.

I've done safety across for a ton manufacturing companies for the past 15 years. I used to do it via consulting first, helping out smaller firms (low fortune 500 to not even listed ) then got into large corporations and over the past 10 years, been exclusively at large corporations (fortune 30). I've worked with union and non-union with focus on safety.

There's good unions and bad unions for sure. But, what people need to understand is, there would be NO UNION activity at all if work conditions and/or employee satisfaction is being taken care of by management. Almost all manufacturing corps do VOE (voice of the employee) surveys now and do them very often; sometimes up to twice a year. The big driver behind that is to detect whether there is potential union activity and if there is, very proactive actions being done by management.

Some industries are more ripe for union activity due to it's historical nature and there will always be rumblings about forming a union in these environments. But due to the nature of union campaigns, you have to get the majority of workers to want to join a union; and that doesn't happen if, as i said, work conditions and/or employee satisfaction are being taken care of. Car manufacturing will always be ripe for union activity. ALWAYS. So if you know this going in, as the senior leadership, you gotta be proactive.

Somebody earlier posted something about TRIR (injury rate). The truth is, TRIR can be 'faked' because it is entirely self-adjudicated. OSHA provides the guidelines as to what is recordable and what's not, but the management team makes the judgement. I can assure you that many management team personnel try to fake the injury rate by trying to say an injury was only "first aid" vs being a recordable; or accuse the employee of the injury not happening at the workplace which also makes it not recordable. Now saying that, OSHA provides an anonymous forum for employees to complain about their workplace; and if they get a complaint, OSHA investigates. If OSHA does investigate, they will ask to see your injury logs and compare it to workers compensation to see if injuries are being recorded correctly.

Regardless, I will say that Tesla has steadily increased their internal safety department over the years. I know because i've been looking to apply for a senior level job there for a while!!!! They now have safety people even for their stores and service centers across the country, which is a good sign. Now, that may be very reactive v proactive actions; it could be that injuries have been occurring and they're reacting to that by investing in safety professionals. If that's the case, then it's no surprise if there's union activity because it means things got too out-of-control before acting. And if that's the case, then employees would need to see massive turnaround by management before trusting that management will take care of things without needing union intervention/representation.
 
Not true. It's not just about safety its about enforcing contracts and the process involved. As I pointed out an individual worker is much better off fighting a dispute with the power of the union and the NRLA behind him than all on his own. This is a major benefit and a big reason why companies don't want unions.

We agreed to disagree....I don't think the rest of the forum needs to see us say you're wrong to each other.
 
Here's my 2c, from the safety side.

I've done safety across for a ton manufacturing companies for the past 15 years. I used to do it via consulting first, helping out smaller firms (low fortune 500 to not even listed ) then got into large corporations and over the past 10 years, been exclusively at large corporations (fortune 30). I've worked with union and non-union with focus on safety.

There's good unions and bad unions for sure. But, what people need to understand is, there would be NO UNION activity at all if work conditions and/or employee satisfaction is being taken care of by management. Almost all manufacturing corps do VOE (voice of the employee) surveys now and do them very often; sometimes up to twice a year. The big driver behind that is to detect whether there is potential union activity and if there is, very proactive actions being done by management.

Some industries are more ripe for union activity due to it's historical nature and there will always be rumblings about forming a union in these environments. But due to the nature of union campaigns, you have to get the majority of workers to want to join a union; and that doesn't happen if, as i said, work conditions and/or employee satisfaction are being taken care of. Car manufacturing will always be ripe for union activity. ALWAYS. So if you know this going in, as the senior leadership, you gotta be proactive.

Somebody earlier posted something about TRIR (injury rate). The truth is, TRIR can be 'faked' because it is entirely self-adjudicated. OSHA provides the guidelines as to what is recordable and what's not, but the management team makes the judgement. I can assure you that many management team personnel try to fake the injury rate by trying to say an injury was only "first aid" vs being a recordable; or accuse the employee of the injury not happening at the workplace which also makes it not recordable. Now saying that, OSHA provides an anonymous forum for employees to complain about their workplace; and if they get a complaint, OSHA investigates. If OSHA does investigate, they will ask to see your injury logs and compare it to workers compensation to see if injuries are being recorded correctly.

Regardless, I will say that Tesla has steadily increased their internal safety department over the years. I know because i've been looking to apply for a senior level job there for a while!!!! They now have safety people even for their stores and service centers across the country, which is a good sign. Now, that may be very reactive v proactive actions; it could be that injuries have been occurring and they're reacting to that by investing in safety professionals. If that's the case, then it's no surprise if there's union activity because it means things got too out-of-control before acting. And if that's the case, then employees would need to see massive turnaround by management before trusting that management will take care of things without needing union intervention/representation.

My company did these surveys and did nothing or very little to address concerns and successfully unionized a mostly non union company.
 
California does not need any more unions. This state is so pro worker and anti company, California should be thankful Tesla is manufacturing in this state.

The employees are lucky to work for Tesla and if they are unhappy - go find another job there are plenty of jobs right now.
 
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Agree to disagree:). To clarify I did not say that unionazation would be "great" for Tesla. If Elon can convince them things are good enough without a union that's fine. Ultimately it's up to the employees. If they want a union that's fine too.

Just like companies, there are good unions and bad unions.

If there's a good one, I haven't seen it. There are bad and worse.

Group dynamics inevitably hands union leadership to the biggest loudmouth in the room; the one waving his/her fist yelling "Screw the company!!". You never see a union led by a rational person who sees both sides, and who tells the membership that "We haven't had an auto plant here for many years. We should value that and do what we can to help the company succeed.".

I've worked in both union and non-union plants. Nothing good will come from a successful union drive. It will 100% assure that there's never another Tesla plant in California. And it may eventually lead to NUMMI becoming an empty building once again as manufacturing gets transferred to North Carolina.
 
I'm not just saying "your wrong" I'm discussing the topic just as you are.

And you happen to be wrong with what you are saying. State and federal agencies do a much better job of representing individual workers with grievances than unions do. If you want to continue to repeat "no, the unions do a better job" you are free to do so, but I've presented my experience and the facts, and that's all I have to say. I'm not going to waste any more forum space with responses.
 
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And you happen to be wrong with what you are saying. State and federal agencies do a much better job of representing individual workers with grievances than unions do.
Better or not is a matter of opinion. In addition state and federal agencies we're not involved at all in our contractual disputes. It was you all by yourself vs the company. You had to pay for your own lawyer. State and federal agencies simply do not cover all the same things unions do. That is a fact.



If you want to continue to repeat "no, the unions do a better job" you are free to do so, but I've presented my experience and the facts, and that's all I have to say. I'm not going to waste any more forum space with responses.
And I presented my experience where there was no state or federal help with contractual disputes. You are free to ignore it of course:). If you keep claiming that state and federal agencies cover the same things unions do I will continue to correct it.