Shell Recharge

[Yev000]

My view would be that Shell Forecourt is the wrong place for chargers because the facilities aren't suitable for a 30 minute stop.

I would agree, unless the charge time is much lower. If they install 250 Kw chargers then the result looks different. The entire area is setup for quick energy delivery, not slow... And 50 Kwh is too slow.

Use the toilet, pop to the shop - 10-15 min. Anything more than that I now have to entertain myself.

Either make it a car park near something or really fast. There is no real room for inbetween.

 

[MrBadger]

But how long before refuel-BEV is a 10 minute stop? That might be one-generation of battery-tech away from now, and then same dwell-time at Shell as currently (but perhaps much less profit per visit?)

I think this is already here. I've seen a number of Outlanders pull up at superchargers and the driver gets out, takes the supercharger cable and holds it by the charger. Then in less time than it takes to fill up a car with petrol, the driver is finished, puts the cable away and drives off. I know those Outlanders have a small battery, but its all over and done with in a few minutes. Its mind boggling to watch. I would love to know the tech involved as it looks like the driver doesn't even need to plug in.

Here's one in action.

 

[MaDProFF]

You need at least 10-20 chargers in my plan, or spots to add at a later date, Garages are not really suitable tbh unless on motorway or major trunk roads.

 

[rotor2k]

The economics of EV charging are fascinating, and worrying. Tesla does it because it significantly promotes the brand, but what incentive do any of the existing brands have other than profit?

Petrol stations have big underground tanks, so maybe those could be excavated and have 2 levels of chargers (ground and lower ground)? That would double the capacity of the station. Dwell time needs to be low, so 250kW++ charging will be essential. Then, they will probably need some sort of on-site battery to handle the massive peaks (and to ensure optimal charging speed for every car), which takes up room, which brings us back to the problem of capacity.

These all seem like fairly major problems.

One difference with petrol is that a percentage of EV owners will have at home charging, so "petrol station" charging should remain "niche" in that not everybody will need to use it all the time like they do with petrol. So another problem for the petrol station owners is that their user pool is now smaller.

Interesting times, but I reckon in the long run "supercharging" is going to get significantly more expensive.

 

[WannabeOwner]

what incentive do any of the existing brands have other than profit?

Government subsidy - such as is was / is - may improve time to profitability?

Ionity rolling out 2 and (max) 4 stall sites in the UK makes me think "not enough", because they are going to be rammed as soon as VW IDs start rolling off the production line ...

My view is that battery size (affordability) will increase and, as such, need for trip-charging will decrease. As fleet size increases, and need for trip-charging decreases, maybe that will level off at the number of stalls needed ... also as charging rates increase and dwell-time falls.

I've just replaced my Model-S with a Raven and I expect my Supercharging to fall from a couple of times a month to a couple of times a year (hadn't planned the 3-year / 100,000 mile life back in 2016 ... but as it turns out serendipity has coincided that with the flood of M3s and Supercharger occupancy increasing significantly)

Maybe trip-charging stalls being busy will encourage people to Long Range models?

Leaving to one side people who have no home charging ... my thought on that is that they won't be wanting to Rapid Charge and will use slower A/C charging over longer periods (at Work / the Weekly Shop / etc.)

 

[Yev000]

These all seem like fairly major problems.

Yep, I think petrol stations - apart from fairly large ones - are doomed to fail. They are usually nowhere interesting and making profit on a fast charge will not provide a living.

Converting all car parks/parking spaces with slow (2-4-7Kwh) chargers is the answer for the majority. Superchargers at services.

Regarding peak/capacity, plenty of ways to solve that, all cost money of course. Batteries for direct storage, but kinetic energy works too. Could install banks of flywheels underground, or pump water to use gravity.

Only problem I see is really long ROI calculations and it only makes sense for car manufacturers to do this as part of the cost of the car. Or Tax payers...

If there was money to be made people could set up their home chargers and sell their 14p/KWh electricity @ 30p. Stick it on Zap map and watch people roll into your drive...

 

[Jason71]

Yep, I think petrol stations - apart from fairly large ones - are doomed to fail. They are usually nowhere interesting and making profit on a fast charge will not provide a living.

Converting all car parks/parking spaces with slow (2-4-7Kwh) chargers is the answer for the majority. Superchargers at services.

Regarding peak/capacity, plenty of ways to solve that, all cost money of course. Batteries for direct storage, but kinetic energy works too. Could install banks of flywheels underground, or pump water to use gravity.

Only problem I see is really long ROI calculations and it only makes sense for car manufacturers to do this as part of the cost of the car. Or Tax payers...

If there was money to be made people could set up their home chargers and sell their 14p/KWh electricity @ 30p. Stick it on Zap map and watch people roll into your drive...

I think it depends. There are an increasing number of petrol stations I see where the building gets knocked down and replaced with a bigger one with a costa and or a subway and a mini mart. Stations with these facilities would make excellent rapid charging stations.
I'm not sure how much money they make on the actual fuel now given most of the cost is tax. I think they make much of their money from the extras already so having people there for longer to charge might work out well for them. If they have the space the change can be gradual.
supermarkets can rip out their petrol stations completely and replace with charging bays or just put them in the existing car park which will work out for everyone.

 

[MrBadger]

Watch out for third party suppliers and per minute pricing. It’s not the headline total cost or charge time here, it’s the speed of charge and cost per minute.

However I welcome easy access to a decent number of sites, but its a case of charger beware - the headline price is a good indicator.

 

[Jason71]

Watch out for third party suppliers and per minute pricing. It’s not the headline total cost or charge time here, it’s the speed of charge and cost per minute.

However I welcome easy access to a decent number of sites, but its a case of charger beware - the headline price is a good indicator.

View attachment 479044

Holy F, per minute pricing on a 7KW charger! how does that make any sense unless its in an area that is very expensive to park. that's like £1 per kilowatt hour!!!

 

[Mr Miserable]

Wow! That is outrageous.
It would be interesting to discover whether a government grant was used to install the charger.

 

[Stretchquaker]

nope, it’s a bog standard Shell petrol station.

I have emailed Shell today and will update the thread when I get a response. I’ve also sent them the PCN as well as my charging record from Teslafi which confirms I was charging for 57 minutes of the 61 I was there.
Will keep you updated!

Ok - just to close the loop on this one as it may be useful to others down the line.

I sent a copy of the parking notice along with a screenshot of my charging record from Teslafi a couple of days ago. Shell have been in touch this morning to let me know that the parking ticket has been cancelled.

Can't argue with that, a bit of a faff that I got the ticket in the first place but totally fair action and a timely response to correct it from Shell.

Fair play to them.

 

[MrBadger]

What reason did they say for ticket in first place ?

 

[MrBadger]

I know it’s early days but how accurate is pricing on the app?

I had intended to try out a nice fast (iirc instability) charger and app says free but looking on zap map, comments suggested it was once free but not any more - all these pre date the Shell rebrand. Would like to think they started off with pertinent prices.

 

[Mr Miserable]

Ok - just to close the loop on this one as it may be useful to others down the line.

I sent a copy of the parking notice along with a screenshot of my charging record from Teslafi a couple of days ago. Shell have been in touch this morning to let me know that the parking ticket has been cancelled.

Can't argue with that, a bit of a faff that I got the ticket in the first place but totally fair action and a timely response to correct it from Shell.

Fair play to them.

That is good news - common sense prevails, perhaps.
Would the PCN have been cancelled without the Teslafi data?
Is waiting for a vehicle to leave and the charger to become free legitimate?
Lease customers would have been charged an admin fee for passing the PCN on - would these fees be refunded?
Then there is your time - the time you took to prepare your 'defence" - instead of just cancelling the PCN they should at least make a meaningful gesture of goodwill to you.

No, Shell need to do a lot more in my opinion.

 

[Jason71]

Ok - just to close the loop on this one as it may be useful to others down the line.

I sent a copy of the parking notice along with a screenshot of my charging record from Teslafi a couple of days ago. Shell have been in touch this morning to let me know that the parking ticket has been cancelled.

Can't argue with that, a bit of a faff that I got the ticket in the first place but totally fair action and a timely response to correct it from Shell.

Fair play to them.

I think you are being overly fair to them. Under similar circumstances I would now be writing a letter of complaint about the stress and trouble, and wasted time that this has caused you, a paying customer, through no fault of your own and asking for compensation. say £100 of recharge credit. If they can ask you for £100 for something you did not do. you can ask the same for something that they DID do.

I know it might sound petty but if they are using anpr cameras then they need to cross link them to the re-charge logs. If they haven't or can't do that then that is on them. and if the plan is just to ticket people then cancel the ticket when they complain then they need to be called out for that or they have no incentive not to keep doing it. OK it might be a one off technical fault but if it is a systematic problem and they are effectively billing people for something that they know they may not be liable for then that is not just immoral it's actually illegal and they need to be called out.
rant over

 

[rotor2k]

Not a fan of the compensation culture that seems to be taking over. It has a significant cost to wider society, which we ultimately all end up paying for, not just monetary but in lost opportunity as companies become more and more risk averse (mini rant of my own).

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I think it depends. There are an increasing number of petrol stations I see where the building gets knocked down and replaced with a bigger one with a costa and or a subway and a mini mart. Stations with these facilities would make excellent rapid charging stations.
I'm not sure how much money they make on the actual fuel now given most of the cost is tax. I think they make much of their money from the extras already so having people there for longer to charge might work out well for them. If they have the space the change can be gradual.
supermarkets can rip out their petrol stations completely and replace with charging bays or just put them in the existing car park which will work out for everyone.

Its fairly obvious in a way, they used to put a shop in a petrol station, they'll shift to putting the charger next to the coffee shop. Especially all those out of town shopping complexes with reasonably good access, a large power supply to the site, a costa or starbucks with wifi, people on the road will just turn up to them, charge, get lunch, have a meeting, at worst grab a coffee and catch up on a few emails. An hour later they're on their way. The do seem to changing larger petrol stations to fit that kind of model with a coffee shop, gregs maybe mini tesco etc so you can buy your ping cuisine evening meal

 

[Rooster6655]

I think this is already here. I've seen a number of Outlanders pull up at superchargers and the driver gets out, takes the supercharger cable and holds it by the charger. Then in less time than it takes to fill up a car with petrol, the driver is finished, puts the cable away and drives off. I know those Outlanders have a small battery, but its all over and done with in a few minutes. Its mind boggling to watch. I would love to know the tech involved as it looks like the driver doesn't even need to plug in.

Here's one in action.
View attachment 478671

haha what an ignorant EV driver doesn’t even do his research about his car and charging it. These people deserve to be laughed at!

 

[Mr Miserable]

Not a fan of the compensation culture that seems to be taking over. It has a significant cost to wider society, which we ultimately all end up paying for, not just monetary but in lost opportunity as companies become more and more risk averse (mini rant of my own).

I'm not an advocate of companies that dish out threatening legal demands willy nilly to their customers and then expect their customer to be grateful when they withdraw it. If someone makes a mistake I think it entirely reasonable to apologise and make up. In my experience this can be done with a pint, some flowers or even a kiss. In some cases all 3 may be appropriate!

I would not expect a kiss from Shell but I feel sure they have a (well-oiled) mechanism to pour oil over troubled water.

 

[Jason71]

Not a fan of the compensation culture that seems to be taking over. It has a significant cost to wider society, which we ultimately all end up paying for, not just monetary but in lost opportunity as companies become more and more risk averse (mini rant of my own).

I'm not either per say. I certainly don't endorse ambulance chasing etc but when it comes to corporations the only thing that matters is usually the bottom line so unless people hold them to account they have no incentive to improve. I never thought I would say it but I agree with Mr Miserable on this one