There are tons of videos on Youtube showing cars on drag strip going below 9.999 second 1/4 mile without any roll cage inside the car.
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Shocked by the new Roadster rolling out of the Tesla Semi!
- Thread starter rudholm
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- Roadster 2020
What are the requirements for this roll cage? Is it something that Tesla could engineer into the car's framing, especially with the solid bar right behind the driver's head already?
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
Wouldn't surprise me to see larger battery packs for the S, X, and 3 between now and when the Roadster comes to market. The technology is obviously in the works and a lot can happen in two years.
Dan
Dan
TexasTeslaRacing
Member
Link to NHRA rule book. Page 21 has the details on the roll cage.
http://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/file/Tech/2017_NHRA_Rulebook_Gen. Regs.pdf
I posted something similar. The response I got was strong: the foot bed would rise as well, so you still end up sittting uncomfortably with your knees in your face, all your mass on your bum.
I suppose in SUV's, they like to raise the roof like by say 20cm, and the floor by only 10cm, to end up with more comfortable seating. And yes, this COULD be done for Model Y. It just wouldn't be the best crossover for seating comfort perhaps.
Tesla always had the option to cram more cells in a car. For Model 3 they were dead set on a smaller pack. Move the motors inward of the wheelbase, restrict range from a single layer pack much as possible.
I've long posted that if Tesla truly have some sort of an advatage with their semi-inhouse cell production, they need to leverage it. If they have cells at lower cost than others, they need to put a lot of cells in everything, and find reasons to put cells in all kind of products and services. They can undercut the market, and remain competitive.
They may be too late by now. Other car makers are on the cell production route, and 2020 is a long way. Tesla long claimed that more than 300 miles of range, 100kWh, is not needed because of superchargers and the way people rest. The market largely disagreed. Only 100,000 Teslas are sold, and no, that's not a lot anymore 5 years after Model S was launched. They could have sold MANY more cars in Germany had cars had less cargo space and more battery capacity. And of course, faster superchargers to match.
The Roadster, $250K, will have only $20K in cells at GF cost. Certainly by 2020 (non-inflation corrected). Even with double today's record in battery capacitty, less than 10% of the price in cell cost. Sure, today they still price their cells are 3-4x cost on their cars (Long Range Model 3 upgrade).
Tesla needs to present a Model S&X batttery upgrade. Making some space under the rear seats, or raising the roof line, giving up the frunk and rear trunk well. Unless they have a more dense chemistry on the way. MUCH denser than today. People want more range. And I mean, the people who didný buy a Tesla yet. And, Tesla will need to become less greedy with the cells, reduce mark-ups. Soon enough, we will have a host of German and Swedish cars to choose from, with arguably nicer interiors and competitive pricing, build for the CCS 350kW standard. What does Tesla have? A prototype for a playboy toy that jumps off the line real quick. Selling a few thousands only, after 2020 (Elon Time).
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
They had to be to make it an affordable vehicle. Same will be true for the Model Y. Tesla can't just stuff as many cells as possible into every vehicle.
Not sure that's a valid factor. People wrote in from the beginning the wanted a 100 pack.Obviously, they could have done it. With the 2170's being longer, better chemistry they've been promising on annualized basis, etc. If you look att it, Model 3 is just a Model S with shorter nose and bum. Barely different in terms of passenger compartment.
From 80 to 100kWh, is really just $2K in cells. Let's say $3-4 in production cost. Now you tell me, if this first run of Model 3's had the option between 80kWh-334mi and 100kWh-410mi, what would buyers pay extra for the latter?
Whether or not a Tesla is affordable IMO is dependant much more on how Tesla sets the price than on how they choose to spec it. Especially in terms of the (advertised as cheapest in the world) cells. Good for 1 million miles? They no big markup is needed as warrantee replacements will not happen. Cost +30% would be plenty. In truth, they price cells at 3-4x in their cars. If not more.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Have you got a citation for that?
I'm in the UK, we don't have all that many Superchargers, I have charged once on CHAdeMo (they are easy to find, so definitely an option for me) in 18 months and twice (at the same location) on Type-2. Rest of the time I've been absolutely fine using Superchargers. I exceed charge range (i.e. need Supercharge) 2 or 3 times a month.
I doubt the Germans would have more difficulty getting about than the UK...
... I think much more likely that it is because Germany is the home of many prestige brands, and the Germans prefer to buy home-grown, which is fair enough. Germany has also been much slower in providing incentives for EV purchase ... probably has something to do with protecting they lying, cheating, polluting, brands.
No shortage of Teslas in Norway. Plenty of Superchargers there, and yet in large numbers of Bjørn Nyland's videos he is charging at all sorts of slow, non-Supercharger locations - so presumably not THAT convenient, even in Norway, and yet Tesla (and other EVs) sell by the bucket-load there.
Norway has a favourable tax/incentive stance to EV of course ... unlike Germany (until recently)
Absolutely. I watched a guy without a cage, helmet, etc, run 10.90 at Beech Bend (Bowling Green KY) with his 6 year old boy riding shotgun in his nitrous Z06. Later that day, one of the guys nailed the wall when he hit a slick patch, and we towed him home to St. Louis while my wife followed in our Z06. Wifey drove over 100 miles in pouring rain in a car wearing drag radials (basically slicks). This was a private track rental for Z06 Vette Fest.
In the same light, people have went 'over 200 mph' in a stock production car. A 2010 ZR1 Corvette will, not that I'd personally admit to.
However, for me to do it legally per SCTA rules at Bonneville, it requires an extensive cage, 2 fire systems, huge parachute, SFI-20 (funny car) firesuit and helmet, special tires that are not street tires (Mickey Thompson Bonneville Specials).
Even with all that equipment, while I was at the starting line waiting to get the nod, a car on the other course crashed at ~200 mph, and the driver died. This is on flat ground with nothing to hit. Definition of anxiety? With your wife and kids in the chase vehicle, sitting in a homebuilt 200+ mph pickup truck that weighs 7100 lb with over 1000HP at 45 psig of boost, waiting for the ambulance to take away the last driver that ran. If I had known he was killed, I'd probably have pulled out of the lane. Our truck was fishtailing slightly at 175 mph and there is a big difference between 175 and 200 when it comes to air pressure on the nose.
So I ran anyways, it settled down just after 180, got up past 200 (about 205 per datalogger GPS) when the engine let loose and the cabin filled with smoke. The turbine temp was over 1750°F which is hot enough to ignite even coolant, not to mention motor oil or #2 diesel. I thought I was on fire, so I flipped the master switch, pulled the chute, and put my hand on the fire bottle levers. Even an SFI-20 suit is only good for a max of 40 seconds so you wait until the fire in inside the cabin before you turn on the systems. I run Halon for the engine (both injected into the intake manifold to kill the engine, and on the headers and turbos to suppress the fire), but inside the cabin I run several aqueous foam nozzles, which protect me whether I'm level or inverted.
When wifey heard the CB call that I was in trouble and pulling off the course, she set an informal record for a motorhome at the event, as she drove 90 mph across the salt to catch up with me. I could hear it over the CB. But I was out of the truck before even the fire crew arrived. Kudos to the emergency staff at Bonneville.
(result - with the chute deployed, engine off we averaged 197.xxx mph coasting)
People get killed, people get maimed, people get engulfed in fire. The safety rules don't stop all of it, but they certainly help. Watch a guy I know at El Mirage eat it at roughly 200mph in a Honda Insight and survive:
https://jalopnik.com/you-wont-believe-a-driver-survived-this-200-mph-rollov-1468965684
When the air pressure on the nose exceeds the available traction of the front tires, you switch from a driver to a passenger.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
People have been clamoring for a more affordable EV from the beginning. If people want a 100kWh pack they can buy a Model S. If you look at the existing Model 3 80kWh pack you can see there is no room for more cells. So no, Tesla could not have offered the Model 3 with a 100kWh pack. Since demand for the Model 3 is far beyond what Tesla can build it doesn't really matter that some people would have wanted a 100kWh pack.
I would start with a school such as the Frank Hawley School. Get some experience with quick cars. You'll go about 9.4 at 145? in his Super Gas licensing class. Now you'll be licensed. Personally, I'd want to cage the car to run 8.9 more than a few times. It just takes one car ahead of you to leak oil on the track to hit the wall or the other car, and sometimes you roll in the process.
Well, that's disappointingly specific, leaving little room for engineers to make better, lighter and less intrusive but more effective systems.
Well, that's disappointingly specific, leaving little room for engineers to make better, lighter and less intrusive but more effective systems.
Watch that video I posted about rolling at 190-200.
And 8.9 car runs about 150 mph through the traps. Many crashes happen after the traps. Especially the lethal ones.
It only takes a minor lapse in judgement and somebody hits you broadside at 100 mph.
The turnouts are to the right. You stage in the left lane. The car next to you is running a test pass so he leaves when his boost is right, not at initial green. He runs 150 or better, but has no front brakes (this is legal).
You do your run, hit the brakes good, and aim for the first or second turnout. You pull right in front of him as he is trying to slow down and hits you, they has no choice but to t-bone you.
Besides, how much roll structure would you want to barrel roll at 150 mph?
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Well, personally my preference would be not to do a barrel roll at 150 mph.
But my point is that these days we have stronger, lighter materials than steel tubing available, and just like the FMVSS mirror rule, the specific details of one solution that made sense at the time the rule was written being in the rule is preventing better solutions from appearing on the road.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I'm no engineer, but can a cage be built without bracing and triangulation? If you need those then you wind up with 45-degree cross bar inside the car and/or across the doors and we're back to Dukes of Hazzard ingress/egress!
Barklikeadog
Active Member
If the less expensive option truly is that much better, then you don't need gimmicks.
Some say that a car like this is to prove something.
Others will say that it is just another car for rich white guys who want to prove something.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
And some want to see how far they can push limits.
And some don't care what others say.
So far Tesla's approach seems to have worked. Seven years ago, heck even a few years ago, all the major car manufacturers were laughing at the 'niche EV company' & predicting their demise. Now there are entire countries saying they're going electric.
comanchepilot
Member
To be perfectly honest, the money is a deposit toward something that does not yet exist.
Thus, it could be argued under bankruptcy law [and many consumer protection statutes in many states] that the deposit needs to be segregated in a separate account and remains the property of the depositor no matter what the agreement states. But Tesla spends it immediately. . . . and accounts for it as a liability just like the airlines account for your pre-paid fare as 'air traffic liability' . . .
Plus, Tesla has a practice of refunding reservation deposits - so making the deposit money seem like it is still within the control of the depositor.
So - don't be so fast to make light of my comments. . . .
