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Shocked by the new Roadster rolling out of the Tesla Semi!

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I am an independent critical thinker. That this generates resistance amongst (other) fanboys is understandable. But my knowledge seems to be at least average for these forums. Quiz me :p
Thank you for your invite to quiz you.
I do not want to buy a Roadster 2 for $250,000.00.
I do not need 620 miles of range. I live 3 miles from my job.
I can not go 250 miles per hour. I can drive as fast as maybe 30 mph. Or 45.
I am looking towards buying an older Roadster.
Like I should have done 10 years ago.
So, looking for your expertise here:
Which older Roadster is the best to buy?
My objective is not to have the quickest car, but to have a car that will allow me to show off Tesla as the route to Sustainable Energy, and Elon's Future Vision.
 
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Thank you for your invite to quiz you.
I do not want to buy a Roadster 2 for $250,000.00.
I do not need 620 miles of range. I live 3 miles from my job.
I can not go 250 miles per hour. I can drive as fast as maybe 30 mph. Or 45.
I am looking towards buying an older Roadster.
Like I should have done 10 years ago.
So, looking for your expertise here:
Which older Roadster is the best to buy?
My objective is not to have the quickest car, but to have a car that will allow me to show off Tesla as the route to Sustainable Energy, and Elon's Future Vision.
Do you really want it to be a roadster, or is a Canta also oke?
Perhaps you'll like this:
E-Car & Brommobiel - Productinformatie
 
Thank you for your invite to quiz you.
I do not want to buy a Roadster 2 for $250,000.00.
I do not need 620 miles of range. I live 3 miles from my job.
I can not go 250 miles per hour. I can drive as fast as maybe 30 mph. Or 45.
I am looking towards buying an older Roadster.
Like I should have done 10 years ago.
So, looking for your expertise here:
Which older Roadster is the best to buy?
My objective is not to have the quickest car, but to have a car that will allow me to show off Tesla as the route to Sustainable Energy, and Elon's Future Vision.

With a 200 KWh pack, they probably aren't looking seriously at 600 mile range, they are looking at about 300-400 mile range on the race track. If they can keep the pack from overheating driving at speed for an extended period, Tesla could start competing in the racing world and then ICE will be truly dead. I think it would be very entertaining to see an EV win NASCAR, or Formula One. With quick change battery swaps they could compete at Le Mans too.

Having that kind of capability happens to also give you 600 miles of range when driving on the highway at normal speeds.

There will come a day when all new EVs will have 500-600 mile ranges and that will reduce the load on superchargers quite a bit. Most people will just drive a charge worth's of range in a day and then charge overnight at a destination charger. They might hit one supercharger in a day's drive if they are driving very fast, or the weather is cold.
 
Where did you get this idea from? Reference?

I've tried googling for a thread about it or a reference on another website. I remember it but I can't document it. Vaguely I remember it as something like

* Elon or Tesla website says something about included service for Signature Model S in a way that says upgraded part revisions will be installed when they become available.
* TMC forum starts dissecting this to mean folding side mirrors and other new features should be installed for free on signature Model S (or maybe it wasn't mirrors, maybe it was some other hardware that wasn't cheap)
* Eventually Model S gets a refresh and Signature Model S still hasn't gotten more than token retrofits/upgrades and people adjust to reality after a couple of years.

I just vaguely remember the discussion about it, I might have details wrong. But I'm sure he didn't make it up. It was widely discussed back in the day.
 
With a 200 KWh pack, they probably aren't looking seriously at 600 mile range, they are looking at about 300-400 mile range on the race track. If they can keep the pack from overheating driving at speed for an extended period, Tesla could start competing in the racing world and then ICE will be truly dead. I think it would be very entertaining to see an EV win NASCAR, or Formula One. With quick change battery swaps they could compete at Le Mans too.

Having that kind of capability happens to also give you 600 miles of range when driving on the highway at normal speeds.

There will come a day when all new EVs will have 500-600 mile ranges and that will reduce the load on superchargers quite a bit. Most people will just drive a charge worth's of range in a day and then charge overnight at a destination charger. They might hit one supercharger in a day's drive if they are driving very fast, or the weather is cold.
I can see NASCAR happening, and F1 already are hybrids and actually can't compete seriously any more without the battery for quite some time already. Somehow I still don't see F1 happening any time soon. They drive 100kg of fuel gone in one race and they actually have regenerating brakes that can become an additional engine when driving slow, or to get a higher top speed.
I wouldn't even be surprised if expensive cars will achieve a range of 1000+ miles. Batteries are getting cheaper and better nonstop, Tesla is already selling trucks with a megawatt in batteries for about 180k dollar and a 150k one for 600kWh, that's a difference of 400kWh for 30k dollars more? That's like 75 dollar a kWh...

I think almost any normal petrol or diesel car will soon die out, or in every case lose badly against any electric car.
There is somehow that charge limit, in Le Mans I can't see it becoming any competative, especially not with human drivers, unless:
 
With a 200 KWh pack, they probably aren't looking seriously at 600 mile range, they are looking at about 300-400 mile range on the race track. If they can keep the pack from overheating driving at speed for an extended period, Tesla could start competing in the racing world and then ICE will be truly dead. I think it would be very entertaining to see an EV win NASCAR, or Formula One. With quick change battery swaps they could compete at Le Mans too.

Having that kind of capability happens to also give you 600 miles of range when driving on the highway at normal speeds.

There will come a day when all new EVs will have 500-600 mile ranges and that will reduce the load on superchargers quite a bit. Most people will just drive a charge worth's of range in a day and then charge overnight at a destination charger. They might hit one supercharger in a day's drive if they are driving very fast, or the weather is cold.
You vastly underestimate what racing means for consumption. Let alone in a 1000kW car. When the rated rated range (based off worstt car 75mph cruising) means maybe 25kW or so.
Average speeds may be around 100mph in such a (heavy?) Tesla, but track us will be a large multifold of that. Think of a ~60-70mi range on the track for such Roadster, and if it doesn't have heating issues, even shorter.
 
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It'll be fun to see a serious attempt to blow away top fuel dragsters in acceleration performance. The energy required to reach a couple hundred mph is only a few kilowatt hours for a 1000kg vehicle, so it's all about having a high power density chemistry; you can totally forget energy density. And of course you can totally forget longevity too, because that's irrelevant for them, they're expected to wear like crazy. Run 'em hot!

Also, breaking landspeed records with electricity is still ahead of us. But the fact that electric drivetrains don't need to "breathe" (which means drag) is a big advantage on that front.
 
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I can see NASCAR happening, and F1 already are hybrids and actually can't compete seriously any more without the battery for quite some time already.
...
I think almost any normal petrol or diesel car will soon die out, or in every case lose badly against any electric car.
There is somehow that charge limit, in Le Mans I can't see it becoming any competative, especially not with human drivers, unless:
To be fair, for hybridization, F1 received a higher minimum weight. To leave the hybrid bits out only sees it replaced for a block of lead. A lot of the energy comes from heat recovery, kind of rare in road cars.

Next, LeMans hopes to welcome a full electric prototype built by Panoz. Swappable dual-chemistry batteries for quick pitstops. One small one for peak power surges, one large one for all other drive. Limited top speed to optimize consumption and stint length to minimize time spend in the pitlanes, make the most laps possible. And it could be rather quick. Very aero, not toooo heavy, short pitstops, clean. What more to want?
 
You vastly underestimate what racing means for consumption. Let alone in a 1000kW car. When the rated rated range (based off worstt car 75mph cruising) means maybe 25kW or so.
Average speeds may be around 100mph in such a (heavy?) Tesla, but track us will be a large multifold of that. Think of a ~60-70mi range on the track for such Roadster, and if it doesn't have heating issues, even shorter.

I haven't done the math, but I do think they are thinking about racing in some form.
 
There will come a day when all new EVs will have 500-600 mile ranges and that will reduce the load on superchargers quite a bit. Most people will just drive a charge worth's of range in a day and then charge overnight at a destination charger.

Interesting point. My home charger is circa 20-22MPH. So to recharge after a 500+ miles journey would be, ~24 hours :(

So we'll need more "juice" supplied to houses in UK. I don't know if I can charge 2x cars both at 22MPH, (I don't know the correct maths). In UK we have 240V supply and single phase. I think 100AMP fuse is "normal". Would that allow 2x 22MPH chargers simultaneously? If not as soon as we have 2x EV we start to have a problem when both cars do 250+ mile journey-days.

3-Phase supply is possible here (e.g. some people use it for air source heatpumps) but IME is astronomically expensive to install because the Electricity supply company has a monopoly and just chooses to charge the earth (ermmm ... poor choice of phrase, sorry!). Business users are more likely to have 3-phase supply, so maybe I can charge (more quickly) "at work" on my 500-mile journey days.

But ...

it 500+ mile range, and home/destination charging, becomes the norm what will happen to Superchargers? Will we need as many stalls? Perhaps : many many more vehicles, so the existing infrastructure will be "enough" for the, by then much smaller percentage, that need to Supercharge during any given day.

But: what of the massive rollout by VW of trans-USA chargers? and European (i.e. government subsidised) plans to rollout faster-than-Supercharger infrastructure? Is that all going to be "too late" because, by then, [almost] no one will need it?

(Megacharging in 5 minutes, rather than Supercharging in 30 minutes, would be an improvement, but even fewer stalls needed then ..)

People without off-street parking will need to charge. Perhaps they will just get their re-charge from the "street" (there is talk here of fitting chargers into Street Lamps), but maybe it will suit some//many? of those to Super/Mega-charge on a regular basis, just like they currently refill their ICE?
 
Interesting point. My home charger is circa 20-22MPH. So to recharge after a 500+ miles journey would be, ~24 hours :(

So we'll need more "juice" supplied to houses in UK. I don't know if I can charge 2x cars both at 22MPH, (I don't know the correct maths). In UK we have 240V supply and single phase. I think 100AMP fuse is "normal". Would that allow 2x 22MPH chargers simultaneously? If not as soon as we have 2x EV we start to have a problem when both cars do 250+ mile journey-days.

3-Phase supply is possible here (e.g. some people use it for air source heatpumps) but IME is astronomically expensive to install because the Electricity supply company has a monopoly and just chooses to charge the earth (ermmm ... poor choice of phrase, sorry!). Business users are more likely to have 3-phase supply, so maybe I can charge (more quickly) "at work" on my 500-mile journey days.

But ...

it 500+ mile range, and home/destination charging, becomes the norm what will happen to Superchargers? Will we need as many stalls? Perhaps : many many more vehicles, so the existing infrastructure will be "enough" for the, by then much smaller percentage, that need to Supercharge during any given day.

But: what of the massive rollout by VW of trans-USA chargers? and European (i.e. government subsidised) plans to rollout faster-than-Supercharger infrastructure? Is that all going to be "too late" because, by then, [almost] no one will need it?

(Megacharging in 5 minutes, rather than Supercharging in 30 minutes, would be an improvement, but even fewer stalls needed then ..)

People without off-street parking will need to charge. Perhaps they will just get their re-charge from the "street" (there is talk here of fitting chargers into Street Lamps), but maybe it will suit some//many? of those to Super/Mega-charge on a regular basis, just like they currently refill their ICE?
TBH I think only 3% of the car owners drive over 250 miles a day, let alone a couple that have 2 cars that both drive over 250 miles a day. Still, you can ask your electric network manager for a bigger connection as most houses have and that way charge more fast at home, but it will cost some money.
In the Netherlands the average car drives a little over 10.000 miles a year, which is about 28 miles a day, I guess only 3% of the cars drive over 90.000 miles a year, so barely anyone has to ask for a bigger connection as most households already have.
 
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let alone a couple that have 2 cars that both drive over 250 miles a day.

Yes, but that only has to happen once in a while for me to have a problem recharging both cars at home ...

I think only 3% of the car owners drive over 250 miles a day

Good point. Presumably lots of those people don't yet have an EV, or have a "small battery" EV that can make the short-commute journies that they drive.

So when larger battery is the Norm, then the huge majority of [sub 250-mile per day] owners will have, say, 300 mile range, very rarely need it, and even more rarely need any sort of Supercharging.

In the Netherlands the average car drives a little over 10.000 miles a year, which is about 28 miles a day

Sure, this isn't an issue for average car driver. But most "average car drivers" make a long-ish trip now and then.

If the battery size in the average-car-owner's vehicle rises from 75kWh to 100kWh ... or 200kWh ... then the need for in-trip charging reduces / or becomes non existent.

My MS drives 27,000 miles a year, I'm a high mileage driver (well ... for UK if not USA!!) but as I live in UK, not USA, "road trip" is not really a thing for me.

Checking my Stats in TeslaFi I find that

Longest one-day journey I have made in last year is 400 miles - that's 200 each way, and I could probably find some sort of destination charging at destination for 4 hours (maybe more).

A day that requires some extra charging occurs 2-3 days per month. I have one month, in last 12, where I had 4 such days. The mileage for those journeys is 200-240 with 2x during the year where I did 250/260. A 200-240 mile journey I could "just" manage in a 90, but for comfort I would top-up charge. Also I am charging in order not to have to find destination chargers - some of those 200 mile journeys are "out today, back tomorrow" so whereas a 200 mile out-and-back journey means I can arrive "empty" and charge at home, 200-out and 200-back [next day] means finding destination charging, or Supercharging to avoid having hassle with destination charger (someone else using it, or "its broken" :( )

Some of those long-journey days were out-and-back from work (plus commute) and I was able to charge enough at home + work - so did not need Supercharger.

So basically I am using a supercharger about 2x per month.

I am a higher than average driver, I am using superchargers a bit, so I represent the sort of driver where a larger battery would mean that I change from Supercharge a couple of times a month to maybe once a year. In fact changing my 90 for a 100 would achieve that, let alone getting a 200 !!

That leaves very high mileage folk, e.g. travelling salesmen. A bigger battery will help them even more.

So surely we then reach the point where we almost-never need Supercharging, and the infrastructure that is being discussed by politicians is going to be unnecessary when it is eventually rolled out?
 
Basically, the only thing Tesla isn't as good in as a diesel car is driving fast with a caravan for 1500 miles or so. This because the car is so earodynamic while the caravan isn't, it's very clear that the car uses very significantly more energy as a diesel, or petrol car.
A diesel, or petrol car actually got quite a high efficiency when working hard, up to like 25%, while normally having like 15% or even lower.
The electric car has an efficiency of about 90%, but the amount of energy that is stored in the battery is like 10 times lower compared to a tank full of petrol/diesel, the electric car just uses it more efficient, but can't do that while driving with a caravan, so has to charge very often.
 
Interesting point. My home charger is circa 20-22MPH. So to recharge after a 500+ miles journey would be, ~24 hours :(

So we'll need more "juice" supplied to houses in UK. I don't know if I can charge 2x cars both at 22MPH, (I don't know the correct maths). In UK we have 240V supply and single phase. I think 100AMP fuse is "normal". Would that allow 2x 22MPH chargers simultaneously? If not as soon as we have 2x EV we start to have a problem when both cars do 250+ mile journey-days.

3-Phase supply is possible here (e.g. some people use it for air source heatpumps) but IME is astronomically expensive to install because the Electricity supply company has a monopoly and just chooses to charge the earth (ermmm ... poor choice of phrase, sorry!). Business users are more likely to have 3-phase supply, so maybe I can charge (more quickly) "at work" on my 500-mile journey days.

In the US 200A/240V service is common in most houses built in the last 50-60 years. The 240V is split at the panel into two 120V rails, but you can still tap the 240V for high power applications like electric cloths dryers, central heat/AC, and electric ovens. The HPWC is usually installed at 240V too.

However, most people who use a destination charger will be using one at a hotel and that is probably using the max settings for the HPWC which is 240V and 72A, which will charge at 52 mph. If someone needed 500 miles, that would take about 10 hours to recharge the car, and with 600 mile range, most people would only charge to 90% anyway.

There will also be a number of the lower power superchargers in every city which would be fine for someone who was going to leave the car parked for at least a few hours anyway.

At home after a long trip you might take a couple of days to recharge the car back to 90% if you need to leave the next morning for work, but the typical time charging your car day to day would be the same. If you had a 50 mile round trip commute, it would still take a little over 2 hours to recharge your car at night. You'd just be going from 490 -> 540 instead of 200 -> 250 or whatever your car is now.

But ...

it 500+ mile range, and home/destination charging, becomes the norm what will happen to Superchargers? Will we need as many stalls? Perhaps : many many more vehicles, so the existing infrastructure will be "enough" for the, by then much smaller percentage, that need to Supercharge during any given day.

But: what of the massive rollout by VW of trans-USA chargers? and European (i.e. government subsidised) plans to rollout faster-than-Supercharger infrastructure? Is that all going to be "too late" because, by then, [almost] no one will need it?

(Megacharging in 5 minutes, rather than Supercharging in 30 minutes, would be an improvement, but even fewer stalls needed then ..)

People without off-street parking will need to charge. Perhaps they will just get their re-charge from the "street" (there is talk here of fitting chargers into Street Lamps), but maybe it will suit some//many? of those to Super/Mega-charge on a regular basis, just like they currently refill their ICE?

Tesla does need to vastly expand the supercharger network now because there will be a lot more cars on the road soon. And those cars will still be on the road 10 years from now. They will still be using superchargers.

Tesla is installing the lower power superchargers in cities that will charge cars faster than a home charger, but slower than standard supercharging (I think the megachargers are going to be limited to the trucks, the "smaller" battery packs on the cars can't take that kind of current, how fast you can supercharge is limited by the number of cells in the pack and the size of those cells). At the moment the VW chargers are pretty much vapor-ware. It may happen, especially where governments pitch in, but I suspect it's going to be relatively patchy in the US where the politicians in most places will leave it up to the "free market".

When solid state batteries come along, the whole charging calculus may change, but in the meantime the fleet of li-ion battery cars is going to grow by at least an order of magnitude over where it is today. Worldwide it's estimated there are about 2 million EVs on the road as of the end of last year. The International Energy Agency estimates the world EV fleet will be between 9 and 20 million by 2020. I strongly doubt that any solid state cells will make it into production cars by 2020 and possibly not until 2025. I would guess the majority of new EVs will still have li-ion cells even in 2025. The market leaders like Tesla will be among the first to switch to solid state, but there will also be a lot of "also rans" who won't have the ability to switch early.

A lot of those cars will be in China, which pretty much makes charging their problem, but a big enough percentage will be in Europe and North America too. Those li-ion cars won't be disappearing from the roads right away. The resale value might plummet, but that just means poor people will start driving EVs and the better off will be driving newer cars.

I know with MOT in the UK, it tends to drive a lot of older cars off the road, but that isn't the case in the US. In places that get snow and the roads are salted, car bodies tend to rust out, but where salting the roads isn't needed or places where it isn't used, cars can last forever. I was driving a 24 year old car I bought new when I got my Model S. The average age of cars in the US is close to 12 years old which means 1/2 the cars on US roads are older than that. I have a friend who still drives a 1984 Camry, he could afford a new car, he makes good money, but he chooses to drive his old car.

The short range EVs don't have great resale value, you can pick up a used Leaf for dirt cheap, but longer range EVs will likely remain on the road and will still need long distance fast chargers. The old fast chargers will eventually be retired as the entire fleet had enough range that demand drops, but that's going to be a couple of decades, or there will be somebody who retrofits older EVs with new batteries as an aftermarket thing, which would obsolete long fast charging on the highway quicker.
 
Basically, the only thing Tesla isn't as good in as a diesel car is driving fast with a caravan for 1500 miles or so. This because the car is so earodynamic while the caravan isn't, it's very clear that the car uses very significantly more energy as a diesel, or petrol car.
A diesel, or petrol car actually got quite a high efficiency when working hard, up to like 25%, while normally having like 15% or even lower.
The electric car has an efficiency of about 90%, but the amount of energy that is stored in the battery is like 10 times lower compared to a tank full of petrol/diesel, the electric car just uses it more efficient, but can't do that while driving with a caravan, so has to charge very often.
When towing a caravan an ICE uses much more energy, just like an EV does. ICE drivers see their gasoline consumption increase by 30% to 50% when towing just like EV drivers see their Wh/m increase dramatically.

This discussion would be more appropriate in a different forum, since Tesla is unlikely to offer a towing option for the new Roadster. ;)