Shocked by the new Roadster rolling out of the Tesla Semi!

[KarenRei]

holy cow, .2s? That is fast.

That's what you get when you optimize toward one particular thing rather than trying to make a practical, streetlegal passenger vehicle They have to literally take their engine apart between rounds and rebuild it each time. The question is, how extreme can you make EV performance if you also let it basically destroy itself each run, with only a few kilowatt hours of batteries (or supercaps), of a design made for only one thing: dumping power in nearly wire-melting quantities?

Landspeed records are also crazy-hard to achieve. But we know that EVs, too, will take those in the end. It's a question of when.

 

[Rowan256]

That's what you get when you optimize toward one particular thing rather than trying to make a practical, streetlegal passenger vehicle They have to literally take their engine apart between rounds and rebuild it each time. The question is, how extreme can you make EV performance if you also let it basically destroy itself each run, with only a few kilowatt hours of batteries (or supercaps), of a design made for only one thing: dumping power in nearly wire-melting quantities?

Landspeed records are also crazy-hard to achieve. But we know that EVs, too, will take those in the end. It's a question of when.

Electricity doesn't beat rockets, so the landspeed record will probably remain rocketwork, it can achieve a 2nd spot somehow

 

[JRP3]

The question is, how extreme can you make EV performance if you also let it basically destroy itself each run, with only a few kilowatt hours of batteries (or supercaps), of a design made for only one thing: dumping power in nearly wire-melting quantities?

Current electric record holders:
National Electric Drag Racing Association - Record Holders
No improvement in recent years if that list is up to date.

 

[JRP3]

Pick your Roadster color: Tesla Roadster in colors

I think my favorite is still the prototype from the reveal.

 

[KarenRei]

Electricity doesn't beat rockets, so the landspeed record will probably remain rocketwork, it can achieve a 2nd spot somehow

There are different records by class. The piston engine record is the Speed Demon, 439mph. That's the one for electric to beat. The current electric record holder is the Buckeye Bullet 3, 341 mph, with 358mph at an unofficial attempt.

It's just a matter of time.

 

[Rowan256]

There are different records by class. The piston engine record is the Spirit of '76, 425mph. That's the one for electric to beat.

Like I said, it can achieve a 2nd spot

 

[bobinfla]

Pick your Roadster color: Tesla Roadster in colors

I think my favorite is still the prototype from the reveal.

Not on that list, but I'm hoping for Lightning Green

 

[cartwright]

Pick your Roadster color: Tesla Roadster in colors

I think my favorite is still the prototype from the reveal.

All cars look best in black!

 

[Cloxxki]

I haven't done the math, but I do think they are thinking about racing in some form.

Nothing points in that direction for me. Electric GT, an amazing initiative, gets to buy its own Teslas. Racing is an external marketing expense, and Tesla doesn't have a booking code in their finance software for that.
It would be so easy and cost-effective for them to just offer 25 Model 3 chassis to a new racing series, cheap spare parts, etc. Would get so much good response. Butt in Tesla's view, they're a production limited company that doesn't need to attract more buyers. Why a Roadster then? Because they can, is probably the best reason.

(Megacharging in 5 minutes, rather than Supercharging in 30 minutes, would be an improvement, but even fewer stalls needed then ..)

So far, and with the current expansion of the Gigafactory, Tesla's focus is solely on the very cheapest possible way to obtain a good supply of batteries. Density, charging speed, it's all secondary. Before a Tesla battery OF ANY SIZE can charge to full in 5 minutes (none do it under an hour even with 10 Megachargers), even 30 minutes, we'll be in the year 2023 or well beyond. Others are likely to get there sooner because they simply care more about fast charging than absolute very lowest possible kWh cost. Lead by the German brands which have customers that have fast driving to do over long distances and little time to cue at the chargers.
Tasla so far has been selling cells at a large multiple of production cost. If they'd focus on faster charging cells, they'd become an increasingly expensive (lower value?) brand. Something will need to change soon. Semi's charging specs MAY hint to something going on in terms of charge speed, and Roadster's especially that something will happen for density. but no real certainty because all we same were quick accelerations and big cherry picked numbers.

 

[brianman]

I've tried googling for a thread about it or a reference on another website. I remember it but I can't document it. Vaguely I remember it as something like

* Elon or Tesla website says something about included service for Signature Model S in a way that says upgraded part revisions will be installed when they become available.
* TMC forum starts dissecting this to mean folding side mirrors and other new features should be installed for free on signature Model S (or maybe it wasn't mirrors, maybe it was some other hardware that wasn't cheap)
* Eventually Model S gets a refresh and Signature Model S still hasn't gotten more than token retrofits/upgrades and people adjust to reality after a couple of years.

I just vaguely remember the discussion about it, I might have details wrong. But I'm sure he didn't make it up. It was widely discussed back in the day.

I followed things pretty closely back then. I do recall some people misinterpreting the OTA update proposition as including hardware updates somehow. Hence my request for some context/link that had led folks astray.

 

[brianman]

With a 200 KWh pack, they probably aren't looking seriously at 600 mile range, they are looking at about 300-400 mile range on the race track.

I think that's optimistic. You're suggesting a 2:1 ratio for track consumption vs. EPA.

In my experience (i.e. my skill level), 6:1 ratio is about normal. And I hear the 'ring is rougher on the vehicle than tracks that I frequent.

 

[Cloxxki]

The more powerful the car, the more consumption will increase. Especially in the case of electric cars.
Let's say the Roadster has 1mW of power and great coolingg systems.
For easy, let's say it will lap a circuit with 200kph average.
50% of the time it will be hard on the go pedal, for 800kW on average. That's 400kW over the lap.
Regenerative braking might bring that to 350kW. 350kWh for 200km. So it will do just over 100 miles in race mode with 300kWh.
1.75Wh/km whereas EPA for the Roadster may well be 300Wh/km. Indeed, around a factor of 6 while being very conservative with % on the power and level of power present.

 

[brianman]

Indeed, around a factor of 6 while being very conservative with % on the power and level of power present.

Some examples for Model S in this thread:
Power limiting while track lapping

 

[Johann Koeber]

Pick your Roadster color: Tesla Roadster in colors

I think my favorite is still the prototype from the reveal.

Yellow for me please.

 

[shokunin]

Electricity doesn't beat rockets, so the landspeed record will probably remain rocketwork, it can achieve a 2nd spot somehow

I wonder if there's someone who deals with electric cars and rockets? hmmmm...?

Strap a Raptor engine on the back of a Telsa.

 

[woof]

I followed things pretty closely back then. I do recall some people misinterpreting the OTA update proposition as including hardware updates somehow. Hence my request for some context/link that had led folks astray.

Tesla explicitly mentioned "hardware updates" in their Maintenance Plans.

TMC thread: Hardware updates?
Greencar Reports: Tesla updates maintenance plans; higher fees now include hardware updates
Electrek: Tesla introduces new maintenance plans for Model S and X: more services, but with a price increase

 

[wdolson]

Electricity doesn't beat rockets, so the landspeed record will probably remain rocketwork, it can achieve a 2nd spot somehow

With a propulsion system that relies on transferring energy to the wheels to move the car, you are limited by the friction between the tires and the road surface. Propulsion like rocket or jet engine bypasses tire friction to get the car moving. Hence their use in cars designed to get off the line in ridiculous times.

Nothing points in that direction for me. Electric GT, an amazing initiative, gets to buy its own Teslas. Racing is an external marketing expense, and Tesla doesn't have a booking code in their finance software for that.
It would be so easy and cost-effective for them to just offer 25 Model 3 chassis to a new racing series, cheap spare parts, etc. Would get so much good response. Butt in Tesla's view, they're a production limited company that doesn't need to attract more buyers. Why a Roadster then? Because they can, is probably the best reason.

Elon Musk is a sports car guy. He famously destroyed a McLaren he bought from money he made selling one of his companies. Tesla's goal is to mainstream electric transportation and the core of that will be making cars like the Model 3 and Y as well as the Tesla Semi and future pickup trucks. However, Elon being into sports cars, he also wants the world's greatest sports car too.

There is some logic to it as well. Just about every car company supports one or more racing team that competes in some kind of racing that involves special built cars whether that be NASCAR in the US or Formula One in other parts of the world. There are also long distance rally car teams.

The major gear heads and a lot of the car magazine writers follow these sports and a lot of weight in their opinions of a company comes from their racing success. Tesla is involved in Formula E, but to the gear heads, that's a joke of a racing circuit. The cars are in a ghetto for the "lame" EVs.

On another forum that had nothing to do with cars I did get into a discussion with a gear head about Tesla. He was completely unwilling to take Tesla seriously until they could compete on the track with ICE on the racing circuit. It didn't matter that they are better cars in just about every way for 99% of what normal people do, if they couldn't win a serious race of any distance, they were junk.

Tesla has succeeded by shutting up critics. First the Roadster came out to show the world that somebody could make an EV that was fun to drive and have decent range. They were very expensive, but they made the world sit up and notice.

Next the Model S and X proved that a family passenger vehicle could meet all the needs of the average household. They still had the drawback of being more expensive than most people could afford, and they still don't refuel as fast as an ICE, but in every other way they are superior to an ICE.

The Model 3 is just hitting the roads now which not only is more within people's price ranges, it will be the first mass produced EV. By this time next year, the Model 3 will likely have production numbers up there with many ICE cars that have decent production numbers.

But the gear heads remain unconvinced because Tesla still can't compete in the long distance racing competitions against ICE. The Model S P100D can embarrass almost any ICE sports car in acceleration and practicality, but it can't keep up with the world's top sports cars on the track past the first 1/4 mile.

I suspect the next gen Roadster is designed to shut up those critics.

The body of racing Tesla's might vary, but I suspect the driving system will probably come from the Roadster. Professional race cars are a spare no expense world, so using up drive trains from $200K cars is no big deal. Ferrari's race teams burn up parts of drive systems from more expensive cars than that.

 

[Cloxxki]

Tesla is involved in Formula E

Link please?
Tesla stays on the sideline of Formula E

I cannot imagine the Roadster being about on-track performance. Only if there indeed is a huge battery breakthrough on their horizon, can I see a Roadster do anything on track that would impress the lap time charts. Rather minimal aerodynamic feature, and the base model gets a needlessly big battery.

If this 200kWh battery is composed from the present 2170's, it needs more than more than 10,000 of them estimated at 66-75 grams each.
Just going back from whatever the car may weigh, dropping at least 500kg in pack weight to a cleverer chemistry and just 100kWh would improve laptime considerable. Extra power offers diminishing returns on the race track. A 500kW 1500kg car (certainly if no overheating issues) will beat an oherwise equal 1MW 2000kg car around at track every single time. Look at the P100D's initial (pre overheating) acceleration. Hardly anything to be won there. But a 500kg ballast on a sports car, that makes a dramatic difference.

Formula E batteries offer 170kW all race. Rarely overheat. They're tiny batteries, Roadster would easily pack 3 of those (leaving a low floor and big trunk and frunk and have the power of a P100D without any dotted lines or alarm chimes.

Elon is into posh cars for sure, but he ducked millions of chances to invest Tesla's first dollar into anything resembling racing. Making super quick cars never seemed to change that. Who would the nth iteration of the Roadster, obviosuy a fast one than the last challenger, change that now?
I'd lower to have a modest budget as Tesla race manager. Could think of and implement some awesome plans. It's just not their wish or need to do so. Production limited. Their fun is limited to geeky names to driving modes and lots of manhours invested into 0-60 times. Their marketing is carried out by YouTubers, and sometimes they make cars available to the best free salesmen they've got. Still not an external marketing expense, still not racing.
We'd want them to, but no. I suppose not until they can see the end of Model 3 waiting lines and factories operate well below capacity. Before they Roadster can be made, lots of problems and bankruptcy hurdles will need to be negotiated. Why dump money into racing?
Roadster in itself is not really needed, but it helps existing fans stay loyally on board.

 

[JRP3]

Roadster in itself is not really needed, but it helps existing fans stay loyally on board.

More importantly it's a high margin product which puts cash in the hands of Tesla. Plus it proves that EV's can be better than ICE's across the board, (except possibly for racing laps, yet to be determined.) Existing fans weren't going anywhere so this doesn't really keep anyone "on board".

 

[Cloxxki]

More importantly it's a high margin product which puts cash in the hands of Tesla. Plus it proves that EV's can be better than ICE's across the board, (except possibly for racing laps, yet to be determined.) Existing fans weren't going anywhere so this doesn't really keep anyone "on board".

Well, many car fans, especially performance cars, will take a loud fuel car over a silent car with similar performance.
Few performance car owners complain about the range, even though such das guzzlers tend to not get very far even in normal use. It's a different kind of driving and car engagement, such cars get away with it nicely. People pay top currency to have a loud obnoxious car.
There is cornering speed in itself, and performance around a lap. Heavy cars are at a significant disadvantage, as are 2-wheel drive cars.
Gas guzzlers can extract pretty much all the performance right until the last drops of fuel. Electric cars have a huge (very shortterm) power boost over the level they can achieve longer term.
A P100D charges at 120kWh max? Well, if you go for a track session, before long that's all the power it will give you, more or less. Enough to go 200+kph in cruising mode, but utterly lacking for anything to be called "sporty" in a 2300kg car. Remember, off the line it's rather 500-600kW. This is a flash, not something continuous. First the Tesla stators of the motors overheat, power output falls to 200kW or so, soon followed by the battery, bringing it down more.
This power deficiency in Teslas that get asked to perform more than a party trick 10-second performance is in part due to chemstry they choose. The absolute. Most definite. Cheapest. Batteries. On. The. Planet. If you stick 8,000+ of them in a car, it can go really quick, very shortly. But it will charge at only 20% that speed, and on the track that's what you're left with, and a christmas tree of warning lights. That's not a critique of Tesla, it's a reality of cells and motors chosen for maximum profit while still able to perform party tricks.
With 2170 cells, the Roadster will still see signicantt power cuts on the track. And will it be faster over a 90kWh stint than the same car with half the battery? Remains to be seen, may depend on the track at hand. If I didn't get any cells than on today's market, I'd have 2 packs. One of the most energy dense cells (least kg per kWh), let's assume Tesla makes those. Another pack would have significantly faster cells. Those tend to heat up much less. Maybe three packs taken from the Huyndair Ioniq. Or six from the Chevy Volt. Much better at bringing the power and not suffering overheating restriction before the first lap is over. Together it might weigh a bit more than a P100D pack, but perform much better. Possibly better than a 200kWh el cheapo pack as rumored in the Roadster.
The motors need much better cooling. Electric GT divised something for that, but no-one knows how effective it's been. they're racing it next year, hopefully. Let's see how lap times hold up over a 60km race, providing they're not too energy limited.