Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2013

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Curious, what was your thought process on selecting 155 as the strike for your LEAPS after the Goldman downgrade?

Hi ongba, sure I'll share my thought process for that decision for what it's worth. I'll go into more detail so that others can read this in the far future and hopefully glean some info on the thought processes of early TSLA investors.

First, some quick background:
1. I have my own price targets for the stock at various time points (Sept13, Dec13, Jan14, Jan15). Pre-Q1 ER I had more general price expectations, but the day of Q1 ER I did some general modeling and created price target ranges for those time points. I also take into considering possible sentiment at that time and thus my price targets are ranges. Also my price targets are based on actual revenue at that time (which are based on conservatively # units sold) and on P/E multiples I think investors will give depending on the current sentiment. An example of how I do some of my modeling, you can see this post: Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors - Page 25 . I've had to adjust my price target ranges at various points when it became evident that demand for Model S was greater than anticipated (thus boosting revenue and earning projections).

2. I try to keep a feel of what I think is a realistic near-term bottom price of the stock that assumes a decent economy and Tesla executing well. Meaning, I ask myself how far can TSLA fall on pure sentiment? I keep updating this number from time to time. At the time of the GS dip, that realistic near-term bottom price number was $100. I felt like it wasn't realistic to go under $100. In fact a few weeks (I think) before the GS dip I posted in this thread that I didn't think we'd ever see under $100 again.

3. Taxes. So I've got my holdings in a regular account, thus I've got short-term capital gain consequences for short-term gain. Further, I'm already paying a decent amount in taxes and don't want to be in a higher bracket (ie., top tax bracket). So, my strategy to this point has been to hold for 1+ yrs to take advantage of long-term capital gains. But in retrospect, I could have made a lot more money the past several months if I had just chosen to take the short-term capital gains hit. Reason being is I went on an option shopping spree on May 9th, the day after Q1 ER, and because of my tax concern I bought 2/3 LEAPs which I could keep for at least one year, and 1/3 shorter term options (Sep13, Dec13, Jan14). If I didn't have tax concerns, I would have bought mostly Sep13 and Dec13 options, and then rolled them out. An example is I bought Sep13 80 strike options for $6.80 and they're now worth $75. But I didn't roll them up, so even though it rose 10x, it could have been significantly more with rolling up. Instead of rolling them up/out, I've been planning on exercising them.

4. History. Just for more background. I spent most my liquid assets and cash on TSLA stock (mostly bought in Nov 2012, but started acquiring in Aug 2012). Then, I spent most of remaining cash on options the day after Q1 ER. After, I managed to scrape up remaining cash (ie., even selling things on ebay and craigslist, haha) and buying more LEAPs when stock was at 92 and 100. So, at the time of the GS dip I was all out of cash and couldn't sell anything w/o being liable for short-term capital gains. So, I was stuck on margin. But I had been thinking about margin in case of a good dip. In fact, the week before the GS dip, I remember telling my wife that if TSLA dipped under $115 then I would use margin to buy options.

Alright, with that background the GS dip happens.

1. GS puts out it's report. Stock starts tanking. I had been studying some technical analysis the past few months and the day prior I had noticed that the stock was in limbo of sorts (after a strong uptrend) and that the stock was very vulnerable to be pushed in a type of temporary downtrend. This was my conclusion based on charts and on some custom MACD analysis. So, I wanted to see how low the stock could go.

2. When it stabilized a bit at 109, I decided to buy some 145 Jan15 LEAPs (for $20) and 155 Jan15 LEAPs (for $17).

My reasoning was because I wanted to make an investment I could hold and not add to my income this year for tax reasons (#3 above). Further, I looked my outlook for TSLA stock was in Jan15, it was very difficult for me to see the stock under $200 (based on even very conservative models). My price target at that time was $300+. But I know things can go wrong so I figured the stock needs to be at above $165 in 2015 for me to not lose money on the 145 Jan15 LEAPs, and for the 155 Jan15 LEAPS the stock would have to be at $172. Even in a recession I thought TSLA could hit those numbers.

So in my mind I was 98% confident that I would make money on this. I liked those odds. I bought the LEAPs (on margin) on the GS dip day, but also put in some more limit orders before market the next morning but they never got executed (I was hoping it would dip a bit more, but was too optimistic).

My big mistake was that I didn't calculate all possible scenarios and returns on a spreadsheet. If I would have done that, I think I would have invested even more on the GS dip. At the GS dip, I was a bit mental'ed because I had looked at my brokerage accounts and noticed the amount it had gone done in one day. The % I was fine with but the actual amount was quite large it took me a while to process it. That left me a bit more cautious than usual.

But I remember going to bed that night when the stock closed at $109 on GS dip day and telling my wife... man, if we were really bold we would sell all our stock and LEAPs and change them all to short-term Dec13 150 OTM options (Dec 15 to have some margin of safety, but Sept 150 would be more aggressive and then roll up/out) and if the stock rebounded and ended the year at 200 I thought we could make 7-10x our entire holding/portfolio. And I told her the amount we would need to pay in taxes. It took a while to sink in. Haha. But I chose the more conservative route (which still netted a good profit so far) which I don't think was the best decision. I should have taken more time and worked out the numbers according to my conservative projections on a real spreadsheet (instead of in my head) and calculated all the tax consequences, and then I probably would have taken some more bolder moves.

Would love to hear some other stories.
 
Last edited:
He gave a few more details, like not a vacuum, very low friction but not frictionless, at least 250 mph, IIRC. Sounded pretty cool and actually had me worried that if successful as a new mode of transport, it might adversely affect the need for cars (including Teslas).
He said it would be supersonic -- around 700 mph -- and I believe that it uses it's own, perhaps maglev, cars.

Should be interesting to see what he comes out with. Anybody heard/seen of a venue for this?
 
Another stock offering to fund TSLA's future ramping up/building of a new factory on that new land they just purchased--
The factory they already have is capable of 500,000 vehicles a year, they are currently producing at around a 23K level. I don't see them building a new factory any time soon.

- - - Updated - - -

Two things will befuddle the bears, crash test results and Hyperloop.
Since the hyperloop won't be built by Tesla, and since Elon is just giving away the design and doesn't want to be involved in building it, I don't see how it should affect the stock at all.
 
Since the hyperloop won't be built by Tesla, and since Elon is just giving away the design and doesn't want to be involved in building it, I don't see how it should affect the stock at all.

People keep saying this, but when asked on the CC, Elon said that it might benefit Tesla. And I didn't get the sense that some people did that this will only benefit Tesla if nobody takes it up and Tesla eventually does (like Elon mentioned).

Elon clearly said that Hyperloop can run on solar energy and that "there is a way to store energy, so that it can run 24/7." This clearly sounds like an opportunity for Tesla to supply batteries to store the energy.

Some people here don't give Elon enough credit. Hyperloop will benefit Tesla in some way financially even if someone else takes on the project.
 
Since the hyperloop won't be built by Tesla, and since Elon is just giving away the design and doesn't want to be involved in building it, I don't see how it should affect the stock at all.

Even aside from sleepyhead's comments, some people mistakenly believe that Hyperloop is currently a Tesla project rather than just an Elon Musk project, so the announcement may effect the Tesla price due to confusion. I remember that one of the earliest analysts who started to be very bullish on Tesla a few weeks ago mentioned Hyperloop as one of the reasons! I don't remember the name of the firm the analyst worked for, but it was a relatively small one that I hadn't heard of before.
 
For a second, I accidentally closed this window thinking I was still in the Hyperloop thread (I had the Hyperloop and Short Term threads open and closed the former before reading this)...

Anyway, I'm imagining a tube where the internal surface of said tube is entirely perforated with holes closely positioned next to each other. These holes emit air and form an air cushion along the entire internal surface. A launcher at the start of the tube propels a capsule into the tube and the capsule travels at whatever speed it exited the launcher until something slows it down at the destination.

(He did say railgun & air hockey table..)
 
Very interesting take on things Mr. Farmer. My view for next week is pretty much the opposite from yours:

I think that what happened last week is a perfect setup for a strong rally this week. On Tuesday, there was some profit taking by weak longs. On Wednesday shorts started piling in prior to earnings and the rest of the weak longs were shaken out. On Thursday early in the day all of the smart shorts covered their positions and limited their losses.

Then halfway through Thursday, people started taking profits and new (dumb) shorts started piling in. On Friday, it looked to me like shorts kept fighting to keep the stock low and that it finally worked, so the rest of the weak longs took their profits post earnings.

Next week: now that all of the weak longs have been shaken out and new shorts have taken their position, the first few hours of trading on Monday will set the tone for the rest of the week. There will be new buyers that heard about Tesla's "great" quarter and went to check out the car over the weekend. There will be new investors in Europe who finally got a chance to see the car. Institutional investors will continue building up positions. The only difference from last week is that there will not be any sellers left; the weak longs have left and the shorts already took their positions on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. I think that after a quick start to the weekend shorts will start covering their positions and the stock will continue going up.

There are other things going in Tesla's favor too: Hyperloop announcement. If it is good, then people might actually start buying TSLA, because they will realize that Elon is a freaking genius and they want to be a part of the future. If the hyperloop sounds like some pie in the sky solution then TSLA might take a hit.

On Tuesday and Wednesday there is the JP Morgan Auto conference. The auto industry is booming right now and investors are going to put more money into the automotive industry after the conference.

The biggest wild card is the overall market sentiment. We just had a bad week last week and I think that the market will recover this week. I don't think that this is the start of the correction yet, because their is no significant negative news out and no Fed meeting this week. The market will rally for the next two weeks and then start correcting about a week and a half before the Fed meeting in September.

I think that I have a 70% chance of being correct and 30% chance that the stock pulls back. I like those odds, so I still have a good chunk of Aug calls in my portfolio.

I am not trying to give any investing advice here, but just expressing my opinion for the sake of discussion. It will be an interesting week for sure.

On profit taking by weak longs, I agree. I bought some AUG 17 $145 calls about a month ago when the stock was at $108. What I was predicting was that people were going to want to buy before earnings on anticipation of a repeat of Q1, and that the time value of my options would hold until the day before earnings due to increased speculation. Well I cashed out for a 100% gain a litte early as the stock headed on to 130, and stopped paying attention. About a week later I saw a headline of "TSLA down 7%" on marketwatch (this was the GS drop). I quickly hopped into some at the money weekly puts at $115, to see later in the day a report published claiming to count VIN#'s on the Model S and estimating over 8000 cars for Q2 (this was not in the financial news). Well a drop like the GS drop is typically a sale that would last longer than a day... And I actually thought the GS PT's were spot on. I was pretty sure the stock would open lower next day. But at $108 again I flipped my position back into AUG 17 135 calls at the end of the day. I was right about the opening lower, but I wouldn't have even had time to flip my position for any more profit if I had waited until next day. I actually sold these calls later in the day though at around $115 :(

So I guess you can call me one of those weak longs... I'm a speculator in this case, but I'm not the only one. I speculate with options, but I think others are speculating with stock. There are probably more weak longs than you think... It was the momo traders that carried this puppy to $150, and I think just about everyone that owned this stock in the 30's is long gone (except Musk). I also think it would have been dumb to short before the report when Tesla could have easily produced 8000 cars if they wanted to... The momo traders would have carried this stock to $200. I know why they didn't though (sell more cars)--Vehicle miles/vehicle ratio. Need to keep this ratio high so any bugs can be identified and fixed early before too many cars get on the road. Musk is a smart dude. This is what is best for the company's long term success, but I think some people were expecting a little more in sales. And I'm sure you and I both know it doesn't matter whether TSLA makes $0.20 or loses $0.23 in terms of the company's long term success, so it was suprising to me to see the stock up so much on the news... Again.

After the Q1 report, the traders who bought at the days high in the morning (and lost for the day) were rewarded the next day by an even higher open. This happened four days in a row, before the stock took off into the 100's... After the Q2 report, so far, just about everyone who purchased the stock after the news is still waiting to make some money. So I also strongly agree with you that the first few trading hours on Monday will set the tone for the week... And I think there's going to be a bear raid.

Also agree about short covering early Thursday. This was probably Citron Research around 10am. Can't say I'd call them a smart short though. As far as shorts entering Thursday and Friday, I don't really know. Looked like not so much Thursday, and if they did in any significant volume, they would have had to do it within the first 15 minutes of trading (I bought my puts 5 min in at $157, so I can see the shorts entering here if they did). Over 20 million shares had traded by 12pm eastern.

So basically you think the weak longs (momo traders) are out, and the dumb shorts stepped in on Thursday and Friday, where as I think the weak longs are the only longs that bought after the Q2 report. Well best of luck to you :) I don't expect to make any money off of this trade since I need to be more than partially right... But if I'm right, I'll be sure to wave to you from my new Model S :)
 
People keep saying this, but when asked on the CC, Elon said that it might benefit Tesla. And I didn't get the sense that some people did that this will only benefit Tesla if nobody takes it up and Tesla eventually does (like Elon mentioned).

Elon clearly said that Hyperloop can run on solar energy and that "there is a way to store energy, so that it can run 24/7." This clearly sounds like an opportunity for Tesla to supply batteries to store the energy.

Some people here don't give Elon enough credit. Hyperloop will benefit Tesla in some way financially even if someone else takes on the project.

My uneducated guess would be the energy storage will be the 50+ battery pack at each swap station along the hyperloop route..
 
1. I have my own price targets for the stock at various time points (Sept13, Dec13, Jan14, Jan15). Pre-Q1 ER I had more general price expectations, but the day of Q1 ER I did some general modeling and created price target ranges for those time points. I also take into considering possible sentiment at that time and thus my price targets are ranges. Also my price targets are based on actual revenue at that time (which are based on conservatively # units sold) and on P/E multiples I think investors will give depending on the current sentiment. An example of how I do some of my modeling, you can see this post: Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors - Page 25 . I've had to adjust my price target ranges at various points when it became evident that demand for Model S was greater than anticipated (thus boosting revenue and earning projections).

Wow Dave! Thanks so much for the detailed response. Always enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your insight. If I may ask, what are your price targets for Tsla for year-end, mid 2014 and Jan 15, assuming the company can continue to execute, and the overall markets/economy do not experience a black swan/recession type event? Thanks again!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.