Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Total risk say equals market risk plus business risk .

I can handle business risk because I am certain tesla will overcome the manufacturing
issues if there are any.
Market risk is the another issue and much tougher to quantify.

Market risk may swamp everything for a while.
Until market risk abates I will remain defensive.
 
If you're as experienced enough so as to have avoided getting torched on a day like today...you're experienced enough to know the feeling intimately. No need to rub it in.
Not to say I didn't lose a lot of money since the $280s... But its fine, we'll make it back in a year. I'm really looking forward to $180 or $200, like everyone else should be. TMC is a better informed community then the rest of the market when it comes to Tesla. We all know that the lower it gets the better of a value proposition the company becomes. You should always keep some cash around to deploy, so that if we do make it back to $200, you can buy on the way down and on the way up.
 
I don't think TSLA shareholders generally should be worried by today's market turmoil. Nothing has changed about the company, and more Model X photos (in different paint colors) are being posted every day.

For those looking for a buying opportunity, Dollar Cost Averaging has worked well for me in past down markets (2000 and 2008). When things look like they are going to go south, I usually begin investing monthly or weekly in small blocks. I DCA's all the way to the bottom in 2009, and profited massively in the rebound that followed.
 
I don't think TSLA shareholders generally should be worried by today's market turmoil. Nothing has changed about the company, and more Model X photos (in different paint colors) are being posted every day.

For those looking for a buying opportunity, Dollar Cost Averaging has worked well for me in past down markets (2000 and 2008). When things look like they are going to go south, I usually begin investing monthly or weekly in small blocks. I DCA's all the way to the bottom in 2009, and profited massively in the rebound that followed.

market risk may well continue to swamp all stocks, and none are immune. US economy is fine, we have non inflationary growth , the ultimate ,
nonetheless that is not the driving force for now.

It seems oil is the leading indicator , when that stabilizes , the U.S. market should too.

just my opinion, in this environment the more I know the less I know, and vice versa
 
Not to say I didn't lose a lot of money since the $280s... But its fine, we'll make it back in a year. I'm really looking forward to $180 or $200, like everyone else should be. TMC is a better informed community then the rest of the market when it comes to Tesla. We all know that the lower it gets the better of a value proposition the company becomes. You should always keep some cash around to deploy, so that if we do make it back to $200, you can buy on the way down and on the way up.

It's funny. I always feel better buying stock as the price falls than as the price rises. On the way up I get tempted to buy options to take advantage of momentum. However, on the way down, I am much less likely to think I know the timing of recovery, so I avoid options. On the way down, it is simply about locking in a well priced long-term investment, not about chasing short term price appreciation. So I generally lose money on options, while my stocks retain accumulated gains.

In terms of blind faith, buying at low sentiment percentiles has the psychological value minimizing the time that the price happens to fall below your purchase price. For example, back when the stock was at $190 is was also in very low sentiment percentile. Anyone who bought at that price likely still okay about the stock being at $230, not super, but not in great distress. On other hand, someone who bought at median sentiment a month ago, around $265, probably is much more upset by today's price. So psychologically, it makes a lot of difference whether you buy when the market is bearish or more bullish. So this take blind faith in the sense that we often look to the market to tell us what a stock is worth. If the stock price is rising, we take that as confirmation that the stock is headed for better things. But when the stock is falling, we are more likely to doubt the value we see in the company. So the point of blind faith is to be blind to the illusions the market creates for us and to trust what we see with our own eyes in the company itself.

So just as a matter of reference, sentiment is in the 20th percentile. At this point, the market is telling us be very skeptical about this stock. Meanwhile, Tesla is getting very close to delivering on a major milestone, the Model X. Moreover, Tesla has the cash to accelerate its growth well past the Model X. Macro headwinds help to keep the stock price down, but they have very little impact on how fast Tesla can grow its busines. So this is an excellent time to score shares cheap while Tesla moves ahead.

All the best, no matter what your coping strategy may be.
 
market risk may well continue to swamp all stocks, and none are immune. US economy is fine, we have non inflationary growth , the ultimate ,
nonetheless that is not the driving force for now.

I would not be surprised if market risk did drag down all shares, including TSLA.

What allows me to sleep at night is that I did not invest any $ in TSLA that I could not afford to lose, and my retirement accounts are all in index funds. A plunge in the markets on the scale of 2008/9 would have zero effect on my day to day existence.
 
Here's a link to Bloomberg article about Tesla revamping its showrooms to develop brand identification before the debut of the Model X: Tesla Revamps Showrooms

Tesla is obviously still capable of getting media attention without having to pay to advertise in the media. I actually found notice of this Bloomberg article in the Huffington Post.

And below is the video version with Bloomberg's Pimm Fox interviewing his colleague Betty Liu (not Cory Johnson) about the Model X and Tesla showrooms:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cheaper Oil Does Not Spell Doom | Seeking Alpha

In spite of being posted on SeekingAlpha, I found this article helpful for putting oil prices into perspective. In particular, the author provides a chart of historical oil prices adjusted for inflation and points out that the real price of oil is simply coming down to its longterm average. Relative to other goods and services, oil has been overpriced since about 2005. We have simply gotten used to it, but when energy is overpriced it creates a drag on the economy, the global economy, and this contributed to the Great Recession.

The key contribution that energy makes in the economy is that it leverages human productivity. When energy is too scarce or costly, it undermines productivity and leads to poor job creation. But how we're we able to get out of the recession with the price of oil still high? Well, natural gas came down from about $7/MBtu to $3. Usually, oil and natural gas prices move with each other and with coal, but in 2009 natural gas descended in price while oil and coal recovered in price. So natural gas helped with the recovery of the over all economy. Coal and oil producers continued to make gains, but in 2011 coal started to crash. The coal industry has lost over 80% of its value, and many key players are presently going bankrupt. So the electricity markets have been replacing coal with natural gas. And for a few years this supported the price of natural gas, but early last year natural gas began to decline again and coal with it. My view is that as natural gas comes down in price, it will lead to more substitution of natural gas for oil. Oil was spared this fate while the coal was losing ground to natural gas, but as natural gas began to fall again a year ago, it took oil with it. So now we see that economic recovery was not fueled by cheap oil, but by cheap natural gas and cheaper coal.

So the market is trying to figure out why demand for oil is softening. Is it a recessionary decline in general demand? Certainly the situation in China may call this in question, but I think there is a deeper structural changes at work. Demand for oil may simply be losing ground to natural gas that competes in heating, electrical, chemical and transportation markets.There really should be an equilibrium between oil and natural gas. Likewise in the electrical and heating markets, there should be an equilibrium between natural gas and coal. So why are all three continuing in decline and not simply converging to equilibrium? And more mysteriously, why did natural gas break from this equilibrium back in 2009? Why did gas drillers frack themselves into a glut in the first place? One possibility we must consider is that some new energy sources came into the mix and changed the game. Specifically wind and solar made great gains through the first decade this century. While the volume of energy output was not initially threatening, the both of these technologies were rapidly declining in price. It was simply a matter of time before wind would be competitive with natural gas in the electricity market, and then a few years later solar would be competive with natural gas too. Back in 2009 it was clear that both would undercut natural gas within a decade. Today the most competive PPA for solar is about $39/MWh and wind is down to $25/MWh, while a year ago a new natural gas combined cycle plant starts at about $61/MWh with natural gas around $3.5/MBtu. Today NG is down to $2.7MBtu. You see the problem. If natural gas does not come down in price, more and more wind and solar will be installed. I believe that the gas fracking revolution took off because the industry realized that it only had a few more decades left. When you're sitting on 50 years worth of reserves and two technologies come along that will undercut you within 20 years, you start fracking like there's no tommorow. Natural gas, being more expensive traditionally than coal, was first in line to get disrupted by wind and solar. But the glut of natural gas has disrupted coal, while wind and solar take their bite as well. Natural gas has enjoyed some advantage in the the peaking plant market, but batteries threaten to disrupt even that with half a decade. Likewise oil has had certain advantages in the transportation fuel markets, but batteries now threaten that market with a decade. So now the economics of divestment have finally come to the oil industry. The Saudis sit on at least 50 years worth of oil reserves, but near term demand erosion from surplus natural gas and longterm disruption from batteries mean that the Saudis and all other oil producers must race to get there product to market. This is the economics of divestment. So while many investors discount the intrusion of renewable energy and struggle to understand how demand for oil may be fallen, key players are taking action to liquidate their assets before it is too late. It is simply a convenience to those who are presently divesting that so many investors are confused by this. The slow ones will be left holding the bag on stranded assets. By the time they figure out what the score is, the game will be over.

So investing in companies like Tesla and SolarCity puts you at the front of the line for all this turmoil. While the fossil industry is divesting, investors will be mislead all over the place, and they will transfer their uncertainty, fear and even hatred on stocks like Tesla. The economics of divestment leads to flooding the market with soon to be obsolete products at incredibly low prices. Tesla will face this kind of resistance from here on out. Gas will get cheaper, and conventional cars will get cheaper too. Electricity will get cheaper. We should embrace these outcomes. They are not threats, they are indications that we are winning. First, they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Finally, they fight you, and you win. We are just starting to get to the fighting stage.

So what does it matter that oil is crashing and the market does not know what to do about it? This is actually what the Tesla investor should expect to happen as EVs and batteries become a credible threat to oil interests. Moreover, the market will not be able to make sense of it, because those who are divesting need willing and unsuspecting buyers. But once the market knows what the score is, the game will be over. So the smart thing is to divest fossil assets and quietly buy up the things that will survive the fossil bubble. When this thing pops, you're going to want to be sitting on a pile of Tesla shares.

All the best, James

- - - Updated - - -

Does this mean what I think it means?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oil prices are very low. There is uncertainty with the Model X ramp. The dollar is quite high, squeezing margins. Macro environment sucks. And yet the market cap is still $30 billion! That's quite resilient, if you ask me.

I was talking to a friend, and he said that he will buy TSLA when the Model X is flying off the line and TSLA is cash flow positive. I responded that when those 2 things happen, so will everyone else.

Rational thought and patience get rewarded.
 
Natural gas got very cheap in the USA, not the rest of the world, given our massive deposits and fracking.
Natural gas is very expensive to export, hence prices vary dramatically from region to region, and cannot be
arbitraged. Your oil substitution might have an impact locally but not worldwide. Natural gas in Europe and
Japan and China is not cheap at all.

fracking when applied to extract crude oil has increased USA production from 5 to 10 million barrels per day
in the last decade. Similar productivity has been experienced elsewhere in the world. We now have a glut of
crude oil, not necessarily a decrease in world demand . World oil consumption is about 93 million barrels per day.

In the USA we consume about 20 million barrels per day, making us a net oil importer. Hence an oil price decline Is the equivalent of a tax cut, benefiting our economy. In the past lower oil prices were always bullish for the economy and stocks. Recently a perverse stock market reaction is happening, as the price of oil is taken to imply slowing economic activity in China etc.. This will eventually blow away. Low oil prices is manna from heaven unless you are a producer.

oil is rarely used to manufacture electricity, the substitution occurs between coal and natural gas.
Elon I think mentioned that electric battery storage will allow for maybe half the power plants to be idled, now that would crush those fuels to oblivion.
 
Last edited:
It's now clear that there's an actual problem with the drivetrain design which results in wear on certain components, most likely the bearings: slow damage which manifests after 20,000 miles. Tesla's going to have to fix that design. I am guessing that (once properly diagnosed) it'll turn out to be a relatively simple fix, but dealing with all the replacements for the older cars will be a meaningful one-time cost. I don't think it'll mean a hill of beans in the long run (does anyone remember the parts design changes which Ford needed to do on the Ford Quadricycle or the 1903 Model A?) but it will delay the date of "cash flow positive".
 
It's now clear that there's an actual problem with the drivetrain design which results in wear on certain components, most likely the bearings: slow damage which manifests after 20,000 miles. Tesla's going to have to fix that design. I am guessing that (once properly diagnosed) it'll turn out to be a relatively simple fix, but dealing with all the replacements for the older cars will be a meaningful one-time cost. I don't think it'll mean a hill of beans in the long run (does anyone remember the parts design changes which Ford needed to do on the Ford Quadricycle or the 1903 Model A?) but it will delay the date of "cash flow positive".

Got in crap responding to your post yesterday. Not going to touch this one :)
 
It's now clear that there's an actual problem with the drivetrain design which results in wear on certain components, most likely the bearings: slow damage which manifests after 20,000 miles. Tesla's going to have to fix that design. I am guessing that (once properly diagnosed) it'll turn out to be a relatively simple fix, but dealing with all the replacements for the older cars will be a meaningful one-time cost. I don't think it'll mean a hill of beans in the long run (does anyone remember the parts design changes which Ford needed to do on the Ford Quadricycle or the 1903 Model A?) but it will delay the date of "cash flow positive".

I read the other thread where this bearing topic was being discussed, but you've simply gone ahead and made a leap that it's a certainty. Going to need something a little more concrete than your assumption.
 
Some people are reporting 50K plus miles with no replacement, some people had a replacement at 500 miles, but the over all percentage still seems to be very low. Maybe a faulty assembly on some, maybe faulty components, hard to tell, but the cars with multiple replacements are troubling.
 
Some people are reporting 50K plus miles with no replacement, some people had a replacement at 500 miles, but the over all percentage still seems to be very low. Maybe a faulty assembly on some, maybe faulty components, hard to tell, but the cars with multiple replacements are troubling.

It would also be helpful knowing which motors (60, 85, 85+, D front/back)
 
Some people are reporting 50K plus miles with no replacement, some people had a replacement at 500 miles, but the over all percentage still seems to be very low. Maybe a faulty assembly on some, maybe faulty components, hard to tell, but the cars with multiple replacements are troubling.

One data point is that Tesla flew in 1100 DUs to Norway when it had sold 4400 cars in that country. One could deduce that nearly 25% DUs were replaced, either proactively or as a fix. While some people had no replacements till 50K miles, some also had multiple.
"Tesla To Replace Defective Drive Units On 1,100 Model S In Norway"
Tesla To Replace Defective Drive Units On 1,100 Model S In Norway

BTW, there seems to be some angst among P85D owners who claim they were misled about the ludicrous mode. Here is the letter some have written to Elon, asking for free upgrade. That might cost Tesla some good chunk of change.
A letter to Elon regarding the P85D's performance that has been circulating around the Tesla Motors Club Forums : teslamotors
 
Status
Not open for further replies.