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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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Do you know that peaker plants are much more expensive to run than load following power plants? There were two studies that were mentioned in the article I quoted. The study that looked at peaker plants found a breakeven point of $840 per kWh.

Break even point is not a point at which capital cost of battery storage is becoming less than that of a peaker plant. The break even point is a point at which estimate for benefits of battery storage are equal to the cost. I suggest that you look at the actual study (available for download without fee here) rather than Mr. Naam digest.

The study that I linked above is titled "Cost-Effectiveness of Energy Storage in California" and is based on the inputs of California Public Utility Commission (CPUC), and therefore is specific to California. This furthers the point that I was making in my original post - that the break-even cost effectiveness point will vary by the region. Hence are the differences between the capital cost threshold of cost effectiveness determined by Brattle study for Texas ($350/kWh) and the one determined by EPRI study for California ($842/kWh).

None of the above provide any information on comparison of the capital cost of battery storage vs. a peaker plant.
 
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The "good stuff" you quote here is most certainly NOT the good stuff.

Here's an excersize:

Step 1
Grab a container of Dreyers and a container of Breyers and compare the ingredients.

Step 2
Become a lifelong Breyers customer.

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Crud! I guess Breyers have let their ingredients list slip since I performed the Dreyers vs. Breyers ingredients comparison years ago. :(


I miss Breyers...
 
My bigger point, though, is that Mass EV adoption will require significant increase in energy production

That would naturally seem to be intuitive but it is not entirely true.

Firstly there is greater emphasis in EV production to make factories that are powered by renewables. Take the Tesla Gigafactory plans for example or the BMW i facilities.

Secondly, EVs certainly when measured in mileage are not incremental to the mileage covered using gasoline. EVs are a gasoline replacement technology and gasoline production and retailing is a heavy consumer of electricity.

Figures vary but seem to be around the 6KWh mark for electricity per US Gallon. Just this electricity alone divided into 20 mpg results in 300 Wh per driven mile or 250 Wh/mi at a new vehicle average of 24 mpg. This is much more than 50% of the requirement to operate Model S/X and probably close to 100% of the requirement to operate Model 3 - literally making the chemical energy content of gasoline surplus to requirement in transport.

This is how precarious the oil industry actually is in the presence of efficient transportation. Simply redirecting that industries electricity consumption directly to moving people, the entire activity of mining and burning is a totally pointless and worthless waste of effort - absolutely not worth getting out of bed for much less going to war over.

In a literal sense, this means that consumers could take all of the electricity required to produce gasoline at the pump and the result would be that gasoline production would cease to function altogether but without any noticeable change felt by electricity producers or the consumer except the consumer gets to drive a nicer car for their money and the electricity producer gets to sell electricity at retail instead of wholesale prices.

The incremental replacement of gasoline mileage with electric mileage follows the same logic only that it is even easier to roll out solar and wind over time in parallel with an expanding EV fleet than the hypothetical all at once example, and just as EV factories disproportionately tend to favor renewable energy supply, so do EV consumers.
 
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Yes, battery energy storage+solar are indeed suitable for base load and would be a good replacement for the baseload coal plants. A lot of them are very old, nearing end of their useful life, and having problems to keep up with tightening environmental regulations, and being shut down because of this...


My bigger point, though, is that Mass EV adoption will require significant increase in energy production

I see.
Which means Coal, natural gas and Nukes will rise before the battery production can get in line due to demand pressures.

When do you figure? 2025?
 
Coal use as a percentage of electricity generation is declining in both the US and China, which are the two largest coal users. US was at almost 50% of coal as a percentage of electricity production in 2000 and is now under 40% of electricity generation. The low cost sources in the US are solar, wind and natural gas, accounting for tax and regulatory policies, which vary regionally. China is just starting to adjust, moving down from 70% of electricity from coal, to 64% in 2015. They are focusing on nuclear and wind\solar, lacking our cheap nat gas option.
Marginal costs vary significantly based on local tax policies, weather and local resources. California will be an early adopter of commercial battery based peak management due to incentives and regional resources where marginal costs are high. Texas has access to every energy source with local oil, gas, wind, solar and coal and has relatively low marginal production costs, and will likely be a late adaptor barring regulatory changes. There should be plenty of markets where Tesla can compete with the least efficient competitors, and markets will grow as they continue to reduce costs and prove effectiveness.

I see.
Which means Coal, natural gas and Nukes will rise before the battery production can get in line due to demand pressures.

When do you figure? 2025?
 
Unfortunately that oft repeated figure is quite wrong, a mistake that comes from equating 6kWh's of energy with 6kWh of electricity. In fact refinery input and output numbers come up with around 0.5 kWh of electricity per gallon or less.

It is oft repeated, do you have a source for what you are claiming?

Note a Gallon of gas LHV energy content is about 33KWh as a direct conversion from MJ. 6KWh electricity content oil rig to retail is not out of the ball park and your 0.5KWh figure looks a bit light for that.
 
It is oft repeated, do you have a source for what you are claiming?

Note a Gallon of gas LHV energy content is about 33KWh as a direct conversion from MJ. 6KWh electricity content oil rig to retail is not out of the ball park and your 0.5KWh figure looks a bit light for that.

Bottom line, most of the energy used in refining is heat, not electricity. One example:

The math behind the claim is simple. Refinery efficiency is about 90 percent and the energy content of a gallon of gasoline is about 132,000 Btu. Put that together and you have about 13,000 Btu of energy cost per gallon of gasoline produced, which is equivalent in energy terms to 4 kilowatt hours. (The 6 kilowatt hour claim is based on outdated efficiency figures.)

But this is flawed in two big ways. The first is that most of the energy used by refineries doesn’t come from electricity; only about 15 percent of it does. That cuts the electricity-used figure down to about 0.6 kilowatt hours. The second is that conversion of fuel to electricity is pretty inefficient. A process loss of energy equivalent to 0.6 kilowatt hours translates to an actual electricity loss of around 0.2 kilowatt hours.

http://blogs.cfr.org/levi/2011/10/2...e-more-electricity-than-electric-vehicles-do/
 
That would naturally seem to be intuitive but it is not entirely true.

Firstly there is greater emphasis in EV production to make factories that are powered by renewables. Take the Tesla Gigafactory plans for example or the BMW i facilities.

Secondly, EVs certainly when measured in mileage are not incremental to the mileage covered using gasoline. EVs are a gasoline replacement technology and gasoline production and retailing is a heavy consumer of electricity.

Figures vary but seem to be around the 6KWh mark for electricity per US Gallon. Just this electricity alone divided into 20 mpg results in 300 Wh per driven mile or 250 Wh/mi at a new vehicle average of 24 mpg. This is much more than 50% of the requirement to operate Model S/X and probably close to 100% of the requirement to operate Model 3 - literally making the chemical energy content of gasoline surplus to requirement in transport.

This is how precarious the oil industry actually is in the presence of efficient transportation. Simply redirecting that industries electricity consumption directly to moving people, the entire activity of mining and burning is a totally pointless and worthless waste of effort - absolutely not worth getting out of bed for much less going to war over.

In a literal sense, this means that consumers could take all of the electricity required to produce gasoline at the pump and the result would be that gasoline production would cease to function altogether but without any noticeable change felt by electricity producers or the consumer except the consumer gets to drive a nicer car for their money and the electricity producer gets to sell electricity at retail instead of wholesale prices.

The incremental replacement of gasoline mileage with electric mileage follows the same logic only that it is even easier to roll out solar and wind over time in parallel with an expanding EV fleet than the hypothetical all at once example, and just as EV factories disproportionately tend to favor renewable energy supply, so do EV consumers.

I agree with the first point, and did not imply that increased demand for electricity due to mass adoption of EVs will come from the factories that produce them.

As far as the reference to the energy required to refine gasoline from oil (and 6kWh per gallon is just that - energy used in refining), not all of it comes from electricity, and not all electricity is purchased from utilities/independent power producers (IPPs), a lot of it comes from the co-generation power plants at refineries. The approach you are referring to is accurate to determine total net effect of switching from ICE to EVs as far as GHG are concerned, but does not quite work in terms of determining whether driving EV vs ICE cars will result in increase of the demand for electricity generated by utilities and IPPs.

Based on available EIA data the total electricity purchased by US refineries in 2014 was 47,224 million kWh, while total production of motor gasoline was 681,237 thousand of barrels. Although along with gasoline refineries in US produce a lot of other byproducts, even if we attribute all of the electricity purchased by US refineries to the produced gasoline only, it will yield 47,224 / 681.231 / 42 = 1.65 kWh/gallon of motor gasoline.

If we try to account for the production of all of the byproducts, without assigning any weight to each of them, the math will yield much lower number: 47,224 / 4,349.316 / 42 = 0.26 kWh/gallon of refinery products.

I am not a petrochemical engineer, so will not venture to try to assign any weighting factors to each of the byproducts to properly calculate quantity of purchased electricity that can be reasonably attributed to a gallon of motor gasoline, but it suffice to say that the quantity of electricity purchased by US refineries from utilities/IPPs is between 0.26 kWh and 1.65 kWh/gallon of motor gasoline.

So going back to my original point, mass adoption of EV will indeed result in the increase of electricity demand from the utilities/IPPs. In fact, because of this, it will be very wise strategy for them to promote mass adoption of EVs in any way they can, particularly by installing EV charging outlets...

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I see.
Which means Coal, natural gas and Nukes will rise before the battery production can get in line due to demand pressures.

When do you figure? 2025?

Might take longer than that...
 
is it my imagination or are the posts getting longer and longer. Not pointing fingers and I am sure that everyone has valuable opinions but frankly I find myself skipping many which are way too long to read. I think posters who can express their opinions with more brief texts will be moe effective communicators. Unless there is a contest going on for the longest post. If there is I would love to compete. Let me know the prize

+1

Im in the same boat as you and Flux. We seems to talk too much about long term prospects with well written essays that I just simply don't have the time or capacity to read and comprehend when I just want to see shorter posts about what's effecting TSLA stock movement near term
 
Coal use as a percentage of electricity generation is declining in both the US and China, which are the two largest coal users. US was at almost 50% of coal as a percentage of electricity production in 2000 and is now under 40% of electricity generation. The low cost sources in the US are solar, wind and natural gas, accounting for tax and regulatory policies, which vary regionally. China is just starting to adjust, moving down from 70% of electricity from coal, to 64% in 2015. They are focusing on nuclear and wind\solar, lacking our cheap nat gas option.
Marginal costs vary significantly based on local tax policies, weather and local resources. California will be an early adopter of commercial battery based peak management due to incentives and regional resources where marginal costs are high. Texas has access to every energy source with local oil, gas, wind, solar and coal and has relatively low marginal production costs, and will likely be a late adaptor barring regulatory changes. There should be plenty of markets where Tesla can compete with the least efficient competitors, and markets will grow as they continue to reduce costs and prove effectiveness.

What I find disconcerting, is the lack of utilities in Germany and Spain announcing pilot projects with TSLA energy. These two are the two markets that make the most sense. Yet crickets. Do German businesses just do not like to deal with USA companies or what? If cost benefit cannot draw them, then I can only assume it is business culture differences that's putting them off or a national security issue. Or perhaps we are competing against France's ability to generate baseload nuclear electrictiy.
 
The percentage of oil that is consumed for electric power generation by itself is not sufficient to determine the impact of growth of solar generation on oil demand. This 5% just means that if **all power generation in the world** will be replaced by solar, demand for oil will decrease by 5%. This by itself shows that increase of solar generation has minor impact on oil demand.

The other statistic that need to be taken into account is the one that I mentioned in my original post: the percentage of electricity that is generated using oil, and it is rather low, about 1% for US and about 5% world wide.

View attachment 109125

If only 5% of electricity generated world wide is produced using oil, the question is whether solar generation is more likely replace oil burning power plants or other power plants (coal, nuclear, natural gas or hydro). Using the same reference linked above, and digging further, about 23% of world wide oil based electricity production is concentrated in Middle East, and I doubt that they will rush replacing of oil based power generation given that they have existing oil based generation capacity and glut of oil to burn.

Another major user of oil in generating electricity is, as you mentioned, Japan. They are responsible for another approximately 11% of world wide oil based electricity production. I am not sure why you mentioned that solar is actively replacing oil based power plants in Japan, as intuitively, in light of the major disaster at Fukushima, it would be more logical for them to try to shut down nuclear plants before getting rid of the oil power plants.

So overall, I does not seem that increase in solar generation will have significant impact on oil demand.

In addition to all of the above, there is another major change that will significantly increase demand for electricity - mass adoption of the EV. So increase of electricity production from solar might not have major impact on shutting down existing power plants after all, because solar-generated electricity will be absorbed by the increased demand in electricity from the growing fleet of EVs. Perhaps you can update your modeling with this? :wink:

BTW, I am big fan of your modeling efforts and really appreciate the time you put in to share it with the TMC community.

Vlad, I think you are missing the point that natural gas competes with oil across the spectrum of petroleum products. The point of about oil used in power generation is that this is where oil is exposed to direct competition to solar and wind, but admittedly this is only about 4.5 mb/d of exoosure. But consider indirect competition via natural gas. As solar competes with natural gas it puts a cap on the price of gas. Consider that globally the unsubsized price of solar is dropping below $40/MWh and wind is even lower. Next consider that combined cycle gas plants require 8 MMBtu/MWh. Thus the all in cost of solar is at parity with just the fuel cost of gas at $5/MMBtu. So natural gas must remain well below $5 or else it will rapidly lose market share to solar and wind. Moreover as the price of solar declines 10% to 15% per year so does the price cap on natural gas.

Now why does it matter that the price is natural gas is being driven down? Because cheap natural gas is an alternative to oil in just about every petroleum product. For example, Friday the price of oil jumped 9% because the price of heating oil jumped up 10% due to winter storm Jonas. Well, natural gas is quite competitive with heating oil. As the price of gas continues to be held low a certain fraction of oil heaters are replaced each year with gas heaters. But let's consider other products. Propane competes with natural gas. Natural gas vehicles compete with diesel and gas vehicles. There are new gas to liquid technologies (GTL) that are able to produce gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel from natural gas. So if oil is priced at a certain premium to natural gas, these technologies become profitable and investors build GTL plants. Natural gas is a viable feed stock for the chemical industry. For example you can make high value plasticizers. Again as the price of natural gas declines relative to oil, substitutions are made. In principle, you can make tar from natural gas, but why would you want to? The substitutions happen first where they are most profitable. So in the long run, wind, solar and batteries push natural gas out of the electricity market. In turn, this natural gas displaces oil until prices reach equilibrium. We should keep in mind that the price of natural gas crashed from around $8 to $4 well before oil crashed from $80 to $40. In response, natural gas fell again from $4 to $2. These fuels are economically linked. Oil, gas and coal are all in a glut as is consistent with this theory of displacement.

Regarding EVs, they are definitely important long-term for for dislodging oil from a transportation niche market. But I figure that about 25 conventional private passenger vehicles have an oil demand of about of 1 b/d. So if you want to offset 1 mb/d with private passenger EVs, you need 25 million EVs. I don't see the annual production of EVS hitting that level until 2025 at the earliest. So by that time renewables are adding some 18 times as much generation capacity per year as required to power the incremental EV fleet. Also by 2025 non-hydro renewables have only offset about 25% of all fossil fuels. So renewables still have a lot of work to do replacing fossils, but EVs do not significantly slow this. In fact, EVS do facilitate offsetting transportation fuels, which may be a cheaper substition than others not yet exploited at that time.

And yes, if renewables also have to replace nuclear, this will slow progress displacing fossils. While I am not a fan of adding to the nuclear fleet, it does seem prudent to retain the existing fleet until fossils are removed from power generation. Germany and Japan has other ideas. Even so, solar and wind can certainly scale fast enough to handle nuclear as well. The 121GW of wind and solar added last year was enough to offset about 31 GW of nuclear, or about 11% of the 2410TWh of annual nuclear production. Given a 30% rate of scale up for renewables, adding nuclear to the hit list adds less than one year to the time it takes for renewables to replace fossils. So this really is not much of an obstacle to addressing climate change.

BTW, my objection to new neclear power plants is essentially that it is huge waste of money, IIRC about $120/MWh for a 40 year investment. With wind and solar already touching below $40/MWh, I just don't see it. The smarter climate change investment is simply more wind and solar.

So getting back to the question of renewables and oil demand, my view is that the abundance of cheap natural gas has already led to enough substitution of gas for oil that the price of oil was made vulnerable. This is forcing oil to a new lower equilibrium for oil. The cheaper natural gas is the more investment there will be in capacity to replace oil consumption with natural gas. Thus, oil too is in structural decline along with coal and natural gas. Going forward solar and wind continue to drive gas and coal out of power markets leaving more gas to compete with oil. The relative impact on coal, natural gas and oil depend on which substitution technologies of gas for coal or gas for oil are taking in the biggest investments and demand elasticities as prices fall. The infrastructure of fossil fuel markets is shifting to rationalize low natural gas prices. This infrastructure shift is a slow process, but it is enough to impact marginal demand and hence prices. While it is hard to see how demand for hundreds of products will shift as renewables are injected into the power markets, it is a bit easier to see the impact on prices. Coal trades at about the same cost per MMBtu as natural gas, while oil seems to want to be within 2 to 3 times the price of natural gas per MMBtu. Thus with hanging out around $2.1/MMBtu, oil wants to be in range of $24 to $36 per barrel. So the question becomes, can solar and wind scale fast enough to keep gas below $3/MMBtu? If this is so--and I believe it is--this keeps oil below $52/b. So from this vantage point, you can ask, if demand for oil caps out at about $50/b, how fast can the oil supply grow? This is not the question of how low can producers go on existing capacity, but the price of oil were understood to cap out at $50/b, how much new investment would this attract? This knocks out deep ocean and most tight oil, fracking. You're pretty much left with conventional oil only, and in that case we are already post peak conventional oil. So basically, production increases and the glut persists as long as non-conventional oil producers are willing to lose money doing so. I'm playing pretty loose with numbers here. We could tighten this up, but the basic conclusion. Oil is price bound wrt natural gas and natural gas is price bound wrt renewables. This price bounds are bounds on demand, and consumption falls off rapidly when those price bounds are exceeded. This is complementary route to my fossil offset analysis. I think that path is good for understanding the magnitude and pace of transition, but the price bound path is better for understanding why this offsets must propagate out to the oil market.
 
What is the normal timing for the announcement of quarterly earnings? I'm figuring February 10th or 3rd for the call. Could the announcement be this week?

Google Finance says [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

Sounds right but Yahoo finance shows a date range and the TM 'investor's section' still has no announcement. I would expect the formal announcement early this week.
 
I'm pretty sure Elon lied/misspoke in the BBC interview a couple weeks ago; hopefully someone can correct me.

He said @ 5:17 in:
"..if you look at what Tesla is doing, every year we are doubling our total cumulative production; at the beginning of last year we had 50,000 cars in total worldwide, and then last year we produced another 50,000 cars. So the total fleet of Tesla vehicles doubled last year, and it will approximately double again this year.."

Tesla produced ~35K cars in 2014, and 50K cars in 2015, which is more like a 43% increase, not 100%.. hmm. :frown:

On a separate note, when Tesla announced deliveries for Q4 earlier in the month, Elon used some interesting verbiage:
That ramp has been increasing exponentially, with the daily production rate in the last week of the year tracking to production of 238 Model X vehicles per week.

Sounds like it doesn't have to mean they produced 238 during the final week of Dec, anyone agree?
 
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I'm pretty sure Elon lied/misspoke in the BBC interview a couple weeks ago; hopefully someone can correct me.

He said @ 5:17 in:

Tesla produced ~35K cars in 2014, and 50K cars in 2015, which is more like a 43% increase, not 100%.. hmm. :frown:
He didn't say annual, he said total cumulative, I.e. Teslas ever produced. The number sounds right to me.
 
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