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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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Question for longs and shorts alike. Why have we not seen any independent reviews of the Model X by Road and Track, Consumer Reports, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Edmunds, etc.? Isn't it normal to allow these "experts" to review the car as soon as it is being sold? I would think independent reviews would be a good thing. Thoughts?

The same thing happened with Model S. Members of the press were allowed short "preview" drives, but independent reviews didn't show up for awhile, because Tesla prioritized getting cars into customer hands first.

Consumer Reports buys all the vehicles they review, so they have to wait in line like everyone else. The same is true for Edmunds if they decide to evaluate a car for a year on a long-term test. I suspect that in-depth independent reviews from Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and others won't show up until Spring at earliest. Overall impact on TSLA would probably be minimal, because enough information about Model X has become available: it drives much like a Model S, but has far better cabin space and passenger amenities.

Manufacturing/delivery ramp and associated costs (like warranty repairs) are what is crucial to the financials at this point. I think there is little doubt that the Model X design will sell.
 
The same thing happened with Model S. Members of the press were allowed short "preview" drives, but independent reviews didn't show up for awhile, because Tesla prioritized getting cars into customer hands first.

Consumer Reports buys all the vehicles they review, so they have to wait in line like everyone else. The same is true for Edmunds if they decide to evaluate a car for a year on a long-term test. I suspect that in-depth independent reviews from Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and others won't show up until Spring at earliest. Overall impact on TSLA would probably be minimal, because enough information about Model X has become available: it drives much like a Model S, but has far better cabin space and passenger amenities.

Manufacturing/delivery ramp and associated costs (like warranty repairs) are what is crucial to the financials at this point. I think there is little doubt that the Model X design will sell.

Let me add that at the moment, Tesla can produce Model S vehicles faster than Model X vehicles. Until the production speed of Model X increases, Tesla has little incentive to make these vehicles available for reviews because Tesla benefits more from S sales. Steering customers away from S and towards X is not in Tesla's best interest right now, and reviews can shift demand to X if they are glowing.

Although Tesla wants to get Model X vehicles into the hands of customers, the lack of Model X demonstrators in Tesla stores also helps prevent the shift of demand from S to X.
 
Perhaps they they already do but choose not to share. I don't think Tesla should give out any information about where in the process a given car is. Why? Because then people start to obsess about stupid things. For example, someone will start tracking how long cars spend in the paint shop. The'll do all sorts of statistical analysis showing the average time in the shop. Then, one one persons car takes longer, that person will start to feel something is wrong and obsess about poor quality paint, and why oh why did my car take an additional 2 hours? Then one one persons car takes shorter, that person will start to feel something is wrong and obsess about poor quality control and how could it possibly have gone through so fast and still be a quality job?

Don't believe me? Check out this thread:
VINs assigned way too early

I don't think any information about the car, including the VIN, should be given until the SC is ready to hand over ownership. Until that time, the car is owned by Tesla, and it's status is Tesla's proprietary information. Only when the car is scheduled for delivery should the VIN be given to the potential owner, for finance and insurance paperwork.

^^I have no problem with this being the standard^^. Unfortunately, it is not the current mode of operation at TM. So, either do as you indicate or provide more information as I have suggested. Doing it half way in between is what gives rise to more issues than either your extreme or mine.
 
The Overvaluation Trap

While I generally find HBR articles a bit pompous and overly conceptual, this one is no exception. Even so, the authors make an excellent point of the valuation trap at work in the oil and gas industry. Indeed, the massive glut is prima facia evidence of overinvestment. It is time for the oil industry to cease exploration. Shareholders should demand this.
 
I'm more optimistic on TSLA's potential stock price and here's why. Even if the macro world is funky in 2016, fund managers need a place to park their money. TSLA looks more attractive than most other companies because:
1) Even though TSLA spends tons on R & D right now, it is a company with high gross margins which are likely to stay high, even in a weak economy, because of a lack of meaningful competition
2) Tesla is production constrained, not demand constrained. A reduction of demand for Tesla products may not affect production and delivery levels in 2016
3) For battery production, Tesla can shift resources between Tesla Energy and Tesla Motors, if needed.
4) Tesla going free cash flow positive in 2016 is just too big an upward move for the market to shrug off
5) If Model 3 receives 200,000 or more reservations, the bear argument of lower oil prices = fewer Tesla sales is debunked
6) Model X transitions from production underperformer to darling of the luxury SUV market this year
7) As Julian pointed out, R & D will decline in 2016 while S, X, and Tesla Energy all produce lots of revenue during the year

Hey papafox,
those are all very valid points, especially the cash flow positive. As you are aware number 2 was hotly debated this year, and I imagine will continue to be, especially if the economy buckets.
 
There been a lot of talk about oil on this thread lately, which by me is completely fine, since what happens with oil now is a big driver of short term market (thus TSLA) moves. I found this article and its interactive graph (slide the grey arrow at the top side to side to make the graph change according to $$/barrel). It shows very clearly how and why Saudi Arabia and some of it's Middle East neighbors are the only few who can wither the storm with these low prices over time.

Daily chart: Adjusting the taps on oil price | The Economist
 
Everybody, please stop posting TSLA stuff here in the ice cream thread!

Thank you!
Not to be a ice cream snob, but there are advantages to living in NYC....gelato around almost every corner - just ask my daughter. Also some specialty stores - Jacques Torres wicked chocolate, Ample Hills and Brooklyn Ice Cream Factory. Just have to be serious about your ice cream, even with 24in of snow on the ground.

Would say something about TSLA, but wanted to keep the post short. :biggrin:
 
There been a lot of talk about oil on this thread lately, which by me is completely fine, since what happens with oil now is a big driver of short term market (thus TSLA) moves. I found this article and its interactive graph (slide the grey arrow at the top side to side to make the graph change according to $$/barrel). It shows very clearly how and why Saudi Arabia and some of it's Middle East neighbors are the only few who can wither the storm with these low prices over time.

Daily chart: Adjusting the taps on oil price | The Economist
Wow, those are excellent infographics. At current prices, almost no producers outside OPEC stand a chance.
 
You can buy the good stuff even in American grocery stores it will just cost a you a premium.

Hear in LA we have ultra premium shops like Cold Stone Creamery.

16238549920_fe63f20661_z.jpg




DSCN4568-800x600.jpg

The "good stuff" you quote here is most certainly NOT the good stuff.

Here's an excersize:

Step 1
Grab a container of Dreyers and a container of Breyers and compare the ingredients.

Step 2
Become a lifelong Breyers customer.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much everything you need to know about a particular ice cream can be found in the ingredients list & fat content. Here is Haagen-Dazs Vanilla:
http://www.haagendazs.us/Products/Product/2473



This is a fine recipe with a good amount of cream.

Here is turkey-hill all natural:

Vanilla Bean All Natural Recipe | Turkey Hill Dairy



The bad: they use less cream, resulting in a lower fat content. The good: it's about 1/4 the price by volume.

Here is a typical ingredient list of 'normal' ice cream sold in stores:

Breyers® - Original - Homemade Vanilla



and they call that 'homemade', lol

Crud! I guess Breyers have let their ingredients list slip since I performed the Dreyers vs. Breyers ingredients comparison years ago. :(
 
Out of respect for your contribution and excellent insights that have delighted me, and clarified for me some of my own thoughts, I'll try to rephrase and clarify my statements. x

#1 My point is that Elon is in actor in TSLA price story. You and I are observers. Here is why that is important. Assume Elon is trying to build new, cheaper, better battery. He starts from first principle, looking at elements and how much they cost. While everyone says not possible, first principle says that battery can be much, much cheaper. It doesn't say it's easy or what to do and how to get to the cheap battery, but that it's perhaps possible and worth exploring. So, he comes up with the GF.

If there is a World War, Elon can start making electrical tanks. Maybe self-driving electrical tanks. He could say: based on first principle and cost/talent/technology advantage over conventional car industry, given reasonable timeframe, stock price of TSLA will rise.

You and I can't do squat over unknowns, unexpected events and black swans, so we don't have that certainty

#2 'Reasonable timeframe' - I very much agree. But you were calling 9 weeks (not reasonable timeframe) and laying down (almost) month by month play. You can't be certain of that, however, you projected certainty. I actually think there is very good probability you're correct to a high degree. The only reason I keep bringing this up, is because I felt your unwillingness to consider probabilities lead to fairly rigid posture that made other opinions unwelcome.

Humans are very, very poorly equipped to handle unique black swan events, based on experience. You can't imagine something if your experience didn't prepare you for. Hence our blindness to black swans. Have you considered war? Real war, with bombs under your window, not war at foreign soil that you don't feel. I almost woke up to one after living for many years in supposedly civilized country in Europe. There was NO SIGN couple years before it.

If you think this is all impossible, that's your experience lying to you, so you can't see black swan coming.

I don't anticipate any of this in reasonable timeframe, however, my point is about lack of certainty, i.e. one has to be open to possibilities.

#3 I'm afraid this is not true. Entropy and second law of thermodynamics ensures Black swan events are default when it some to surprises, and white swan doesn't really exist, it's called hard work.


Sunday sermon on the philosopy of determinabilty. tl;dr version: skip this unless you fancy (hopefully) enjoying a read. It has nothing directly to do with the short term, more like a 50 year term.


The above post that prompted me to assemble some thoughts on this topic is a response is to something I wrote that contains this line:

"Tesla and its EV colleagues [are] following the tech disruption trend line, as these emerge [it] will precipitate an auto industry recession with numerous ramifications across the economic and political spectrum because it does not take much to send a traditional auto maker bust. Much less than it takes to re-supply its customers or re-employ its workers."

If you look closely enough at this line, especially the bit I have highlighted, you can deduce four things. One, that I am fully aware of black swan events. Two, that it is possible to assign probabilities to them. Three, that being alarmist about these things I feel is imprudent. Four (and for a reasons mentioned), they are incorporated in the world-view I have presented. Wars for example are made of the military industrial and technological capabilities of the times in which they occur and the probabilities intersect at the point where Tesla (and SpaceX and Solar City) in a future timeframe would definitely be incorporated into the military industrial complex. Autonomous, silent, satellite guided troop insertion, extraction and patrol, automated supply lines and ordinance delivery that can run lights-out at night and so close to ambient temperature that it is just about invisible to night-vision or heat-seeking weaponry (Tesla's auto-piloted EV architecture - especially where supported by a resilient 4000 satellite command and control network) is a powerful and eminently advanced military technology. I am itching to see Model X off-road capabilities, enhanced AWD traction has military and security implications too. SpaceX is emerging as the de-facto US Airforce space wing - we just watched eleven what might as well be precision guided warheads deployed via livestream from a booster that can technically be relaunched many times per day - this advanced weapons technology that is already classified accordingly under ITAR. Discreet micro grid based power networks that cannot be knocked out by hitting a central power plant naturally deliver significantly upgraded strategic energy security and could be deployed readily deep in-theatre, ending the vulnerability of securing energy supply lines, particularly in connection with EV based mobility. There is precedent for this. Ford for example was a massive net beneficiary of WW2 supplying both Allied and the Axis military machine and allegedly that involved some kind of pact for the Allies not to bomb Ford facilities in Germany. VW is literally the product of Nazi Germany and Toyota very much the net beneficiary of WW2 Japan. Today Toyota is anecdotally the transportation of choice for ISIS and similarly horrific groups in the trouble spots of Africa.

There are also an omega points in statistics: Nobody need care about the TSLA stock price post a society-ending event. Thus making the null thesis irrelevant. By definition apocalyptic scenarios do not weigh on the averages in any frame of reference where civilization continues to exist at the point of measurement. i.e. if civilization completely ceases to exist, the stock price would not be low. In the absence of both money and the stock market it would become indeterminable.

It is also worth mentioning a precedent that every major change in the energy and transportation basis of society has resulted in disruption to the balance of power and has resulted in widespread wars to re-establish it. That is true from horse to steam and from steam to the internal combustion of oil and its refinery products. On that basis, the default thesis would be war as a result of a transition to the irrelevance of oil an internal combustion. Huge power bases are built on these things. The US armed forces for example is the world's single largest consumer of oil and its primary function in the world under the euphemism of 'American Interests Abroad' is the protection of its own strategic oil supply lines. Typically flowing from unfriendly territories. A more technically advanced military that does not need oil would change matters drastically. Think of an alternative plot for the movie Independence Day - Aliens show up but they can't sustain a fight without drilling oil wells and operating oil refineries and tankers. Nothing to fear. There is good reason why a change to renewable energy and battery storage may result in unprecedented peace instead of war. Nobody has a national super-concentration or scarcity of it and the advantages of a historically strong oil-based economy also lend themselves to rapid innovation and access to capital for transition that need not alter the global power balance more than to deflate the tensions surrounding the oil concentrations in the Middle East. Even in Saudi the regime has figured out that solar powered electricity production is more economical that the use of their own abundant natural gas supply. The term GreenPeace may actually turn out to prophetic.

I almost explained this the first time out and I deleted it again for the avoidance of alarmism.


Routing back to Future History (psychohistory, Asimov style). It is very popular at present and especially in the West to regard the future as indeterminable. This is NOT the truth. What is the truth is that it is very widespread cultural meme at present that is frequently regarded as a general truth that needs to be defended. This is not the only cultural meme that there has ever been neither is it the only cultural meme that currently exists. At times and in places it has been widely popular (and defended adamantly) that the future is highly determinable. In China right now the general working population is certain that the country is progressing successfully along a definite plan from general poverty to general wealth. They know it is true because for example the young professionals I met in Shenzhen have realistic goals to buy BMWs while once a year at Spring break they return to far-off villages to visit grandparents that in their day counted access to a paddy field as their primary source of net worth.

In fact the hard-core of the prevailing future indeterminability meme surrounding energy and transportation is bat-sh*t crazy when you really stop and think about it. It goes like this: Nobody can know the future and it will definitely not change for as long as you and I live. Sorry, but that is a self-defeating and completely illogical statement of an absolutely predetermined future. To make matters worse I have to object to the concept of entropy in a socio-economic context. That's a load of rubbish too. We are each a member of a species that was semi-naked and chasing after wild animals with sticks not so very long ago. Now we sit in machine-woven outfits in air conditioned buildings watching space ships on the freaking internet. What entropy? One relatively fool-proof definition of life itself is that it is counter-entropic. It assembles order out of chaos. We are in fact living beings surrounded by things that have massive negative entropy produced by massively counter-entropic chains of business processes that ultimately get stuff that was once distributed relatively randomly throughout rocks in the ground and assembled in a definite order with really mind-blowing entropy reduction - like this computer in front of me. The drive for order out of chaos and its products is so ubiquitous in Western society that vacation breaks from it all to see some chaotically distributed sand and water or snow and rocks for example can be really really nice.

Given that an uncertain future is the prevailing cultural Western meme and that the meme itself it is not objectively true. It is true to say that this cultural meme is the 'psychohistorical' canvas on which Future History will now be written. It is a recipe for surprise rather than expectation when things change radically, especially things that change radically for the better. This is a time for extraordinary success of 'visionaries' that can see through the cultural mist and act accordingly.

Perhaps on another weekend I could consider writing something about the exceptional predictability of Elon Musk. Even as an observer is possible to know just about exactly what he will do as a system component when faced with a novel deliverable like a Gigafactory. Musk according to my observations represents the epitome of counter-entropic behavior. It is stupidity that introduces entropy (chaos and unpredictability). Musk is extremely non-stupid and the thing about that is, that if you also know what the truth is and what the optimum decision is given that truth, then just as there are thousands of ways to be wrong and only one way to be right if you set the axioms and parameters correctly then you know with great precision what Musk and hence Tesla will do - and because the actions of Tesla affect a very large population in various contingencies from competition to the investment community and media to consumers, politics and economics it is highly possible to generate a semantic tree of Future History that has a single very high probability path that within the range of probabilities interesting to the art of investing for gain (win significantly more than you lose) is in my opinion as deterministic as anything ever gets.
 
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Actually, very small fraction of electricity produced in US generated by burning oil. Levelized cost of energy (LCOE) when batteries used to time shift energy is still more expensive than using gas peakers, but is getting very close. Installing battery energy storage systems also requires slightly more capital, but situation is probably going to improve a lot with Tesla power pack type pricing. The overall economic assessment, though, is pretty involved, especially when stacking of battery energy storage services is employed. In addition, decision making by Utilities influenced by other than pure economics as well.

I've done some research on this, and will try to post over in the battery storage thread over the weekend.

About 5% of oil is consumed for power generation, about 4.5 mb/d. Japan uses about 0.9mb/d and is actively replacing this with solar. Bank of Abu Dhabi did an analysis on this and found that $10/b oil cannot compete solar. Look up their Future of Energy report.

The percentage of oil that is consumed for electric power generation by itself is not sufficient to determine the impact of growth of solar generation on oil demand. This 5% just means that if **all power generation in the world** will be replaced by solar, demand for oil will decrease by 5%. This by itself shows that increase of solar generation has minor impact on oil demand.

The other statistic that need to be taken into account is the one that I mentioned in my original post: the percentage of electricity that is generated using oil, and it is rather low, about 1% for US and about 5% world wide.

Snap145.png


If only 5% of electricity generated world wide is produced using oil, the question is whether solar generation is more likely replace oil burning power plants or other power plants (coal, nuclear, natural gas or hydro). Using the same reference linked above, and digging further, about 23% of world wide oil based electricity production is concentrated in Middle East, and I doubt that they will rush replacing of oil based power generation given that they have existing oil based generation capacity and glut of oil to burn.

Another major user of oil in generating electricity is, as you mentioned, Japan. They are responsible for another approximately 11% of world wide oil based electricity production. I am not sure why you mentioned that solar is actively replacing oil based power plants in Japan, as intuitively, in light of the major disaster at Fukushima, it would be more logical for them to try to shut down nuclear plants before getting rid of the oil power plants.

So overall, I does not seem that increase in solar generation will have significant impact on oil demand.

In addition to all of the above, there is another major change that will significantly increase demand for electricity - mass adoption of the EV. So increase of electricity production from solar might not have major impact on shutting down existing power plants after all, because solar-generated electricity will be absorbed by the increased demand in electricity from the growing fleet of EVs. Perhaps you can update your modeling with this? :wink:

BTW, I am big fan of your modeling efforts and really appreciate the time you put in to share it with the TMC community.
 
Suggestions that people should *accept* poor communication because that is what we get from ICE dealerships and mechanics..really? Is that our standard now?


I think all that people are saying is that given consumer acceptance of ICE dealerships, Tesla being on-par with them for communication purposes will not be a bad deal at all. On non-communication issues, Tesla has already far surpassed your average dealership except for perhaps service wait times at some overcrowded centers.

I have a horrible history with a Mercedes dealership for my last car. That's a top-notch luxury carmaker, right? Yet they're still horrible, and their dealership was above 4.5 stars on Google--so they're one of the better ones out there!
 
The percentage of oil that is consumed for electric power generation by itself is not sufficient to determine the impact of growth of solar generation on oil demand. This 5% just means that if **all power generation in the world** will be replaced by solar, demand for oil will decrease by 5%. This by itself shows that increase of solar generation has minor impact on oil demand.

The other statistic that need to be taken into account is the one that I mentioned in my original post: the percentage of electricity that is generated using oil, and it is rather low, about 1% for US and about 5% world wide.

View attachment 109125

If only 5% of electricity generated world wide is produced using oil, the question is whether solar generation is more likely replace oil burning power plants or other power plants (coal, nuclear, natural gas or hydro). Using the same reference linked above, and digging further, about 23% of world wide oil based electricity production is concentrated in Middle East, and I doubt that they will rush replacing of oil based power generation given that they have existing oil based generation capacity and glut of oil to burn.

Another major user of oil in generating electricity is, as you mentioned, Japan. They are responsible for another approximately 11% of world wide oil based electricity production. I am not sure why you mentioned that solar is actively replacing oil based power plants in Japan, as intuitively, in light of the major disaster at Fukushima, it would be more logical for them to try to shut down nuclear plants before getting rid of the oil power plants.

So overall, I does not seem that increase in solar generation will have significant impact on oil demand.

In addition to all of the above, there is another major change that will significantly increase demand for electricity - mass adoption of the EV. So increase of electricity production from solar might not have major impact on shutting down existing power plants after all, because solar-generated electricity will be absorbed by the increased demand in electricity from the growing fleet of EVs. Perhaps you can update your modeling with this? :wink:

BTW, I am big fan of your modeling efforts and really appreciate the time you put in to share it with the TMC community.

I see, so the money is in killing coal. Which, from my limited understanding, is a lot cheaper.
 
I see, so the money is in killing coal. Which, from my limited understanding, is a lot cheaper.

If you are comparing operation costs of coal vs oil (I am not sure) the ratio is obviously vary widely depending on oil price: oil priced at $120 will produce very different result than oil priced below$30...

The other consideration, of course, is pollution, and coal plants produce more of it, and cleaning up this pollution by modernizing coal plants is a double whammy: it costs money (a lot) and it reduces coal plant output...
 
If you are comparing operation costs of coal vs oil (I am not sure) the ratio is obviously vary widely depending on oil price: oil priced at $120 will produce very different result than oil priced below$30...

The other consideration, of course, is pollution, and coal plants produce more of it, and cleaning up this pollution by modernizing coal plants is a double whammy: it costs money (a lot) and it reduces coal plant output...

I meant the utilities's cost analysis when weighing battery+solar vs coal baseload. The battery enables the possibility if solar to be baseload.
 
I meant the utilities's cost analysis when weighing battery+solar vs coal baseload. The battery enables the possibility if solar to be baseload.

Yes, battery energy storage+solar are indeed suitable for base load and would be a good replacement for the baseload coal plants. A lot of them are very old, nearing end of their useful life, and having problems to keep up with tightening environmental regulations, and being shut down because of this...


My bigger point, though, is that Mass EV adoption will require significant increase in energy production
 
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