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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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Well maybe just have more of these buses to shuttle people to their final destination instead of a clumsy bus bus that stops at bus stops.

I like this concept
Sure, lots of people do. And history is littered with the bankrupt fools who tried to commercialize it, because *there's no market*.

The market for mass transportation is really dependent on the *mass*. If you have to shuttle tiny groups of people to their final destination, you probably don't have the mass. If you do have the mass, people are probably walking 1 or 2 blocks to their destination.

I suppose something like this could be the driverless taxi. But that's not mass transportation, that's a taxi.
 
Which is why it's odd that he is being stupidly utopian about human nature with regard to car lending, and hasn't done his historical research on public transportation.

The stupid utopian has created a $32B car company that is being transitioned into a sustainable energy transportation company.

Someone as wise as you should stop wasting time on TMC and start your own company.

Clearly it will be multiples more valuable than the stupid guy's company and bring that much more value to humanity.
 
The stupid utopian has created a $32B car company that is being transitioned into a sustainable energy transportation company.

Someone as wise as you should stop wasting time on TMC and start your own company.

Clearly it will be multiples more valuable than the stupid guy's company and bring that much more value to humanity.
If I weren't sick so much (chronic illness), bluntly, I would. I am smarter than Elon in some ways, but I can't work 24 hour days like he does; I can't even work 8 hour days like most people do. Making money off passive investments is, thankfully, a rather low time commitment.

Being smart is less valuable than most people think. Being healthy is much more useful.

I would be happy to advise Elon if he is interested in listening. In many areas he has seemed very willing to listen to people who know more than he does about a specialty, which is why his blind spot on public transportation is weird.
 
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There is a reason these things are worthless for mass transportation. I'm not going to bother to go into detail; suffice it to say they aren't mass transportation. You can't fit 40 people in there, let alone the hundreds you can fit in a typical train. That is an incredibly inefficient use of space compared to a BUS WITH AN AISLE. Do the math, geez.

There is a whole history of doofuses trying things like this which failed. History is littered with them. They all failed because they do not provide the basic high-density transport which is valuable for *mass* transportation. If your area is low-density enough that you don't need to supply that sort of high-density mass transportation... people will just take cars or taxis.

Thats... kind of the whole point though. Mass transportation like buses and trains with dozens or hundreds of people aboard aren't really efficient either, because they don't take you to your final destination, so you end up wasting time on both ends travelling from your origin TO the mass transit, and then from the mass transit to your destination.

Elon's suggesting more vehicles which are smaller, and transport you directly to your destination. Since they're autonomous, pollution-free and on-demand, there isn't a problem with using more of them. Imagine how much better taxis could flow in a major metropolis if they didn't have to deal with slow moving buses, and fewer cars.
 
Yeah. Musk identified early on that people irrationally wanted private cars with more range than they needed... and provided that. He also did his historical research on early car companies. Which is why it's odd that he is being stupidly utopian about human nature with regard to car lending, and hasn't done his historical research on public transportation.
I'm not sure which generation you belong to, but I think you may be assigning a little too much value to your personal view on car sharing. Like it or not (I personally do not like it, for the record, I share your uneasiness with sharing my car), we are becoming a sharing economy and obviously it's being driven by the younger generation. Personally, I'm glad Elon is aiming his product at the younger generations (which, btw, these products become affordable to the young thanks to their willingness to share stuff). The trend is toward more and more sharing and I'd rather get in on a big trend at its infancy. Especially since full, permitted autonomy is probably 5 years away. Attitudes will continue to trend towards less sole ownership of cars and Tesla will be at the center. Let Tesla continue to produce more upscale, less sharing-oriented cars for the boomers and other outliers like myself. Something for everyone.

As to the repeated mentions of Elon being stupid and not doing his research on the bus - you are certainly entitled to your own opinion - but it might make sense to learn more about it and possibly wait for an early sketch of the design before drawing strong conclusions. If there's intelligence or research in question I personally tend to give Elon the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, as I believe he has earned that.
 
I'm not sure which generation you belong to
Elon's.

As to the repeated mentions of Elon being stupid and not doing his research on the bus - you are certainly entitled to your own opinion - but it might make sense to learn more about it and possibly wait for an early sketch of the design before drawing strong conclusions. If there's intelligence or research in question I personally tend to give Elon the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, as I believe he has earned that.
He's been proven wrong about buses already. Look, he's talking about a field I have studied fairly extensively, and what he's written is not just dumb, it's *common* dumb -- it's the stuff which people who are ignorant in the field typically spew, and which the professionals have to spend most of their time correcting. Which is why I'm being so rude about it.

So, I think best case scenario here is that it's another idea like using the AC Propulsion drivetrain. He goes in with a bad idea which will not work, and partway through he figures out that it won't work and designs something entirely different which will work. OK, but doing a little research would help him avoid spending a lot of *stockholder* money before figuring this out.
 
Sure, lots of people do. And history is littered with the bankrupt fools who tried to commercialize it, because *there's no market*.

The market for mass transportation is really dependent on the *mass*. If you have to shuttle tiny groups of people to their final destination, you probably don't have the mass. If you do have the mass, people are probably walking 1 or 2 blocks to their destination.

I suppose something like this could be the driverless taxi. But that's not mass transportation, that's a taxi.

Why does it matter how many there are? This granular approach will allow greater utilization of the fleet by sending them where they're needed when they're needed. It will result in a faster / cheaper service.

Buses made sense because:
1) You only had to pay one person to drive all these people around.
2) It's more energy efficient / less polluting to operate a single large vehicle vs several smaller ones.

This concept addresses both of those points:
1) No driver required.
2) Electric drivetrains scale down efficiently.

Can you name me a self-driving electric bus company that has gone bankrupt? :)
 
For those who want to know, Jarrett Walker, a professional public transportation consultant (who is also a big supporter of automation) has explained better than I can, and more politely, why Musk is being really dumb and ignorant about *mass* transportation: Does Elon Musk Understand Urban Geometry? — Human Transit

Read that. Then you'll understand why Musk doesn't know what he's talking about. And honestly, if Musk read it, he'd probably change his views in about ten minutes.
 
I'm not sure which generation you belong to, but I think you may be assigning a little too much value to your personal view on car sharing. Like it or not (I personally do not like it, for the record, I share your uneasiness with sharing my car), we are becoming a sharing economy and obviously it's being driven by the younger generation. Personally, I'm glad Elon is aiming his product at the younger generations (which, btw, these products become affordable to the young thanks to their willingness to share stuff). The trend is toward more and more sharing and I'd rather get in on a big trend at its infancy. Especially since full, permitted autonomy is probably 5 years away. Attitudes will continue to trend towards less sole ownership of cars and Tesla will be at the center. Let Tesla continue to produce more upscale, less sharing-oriented cars for the boomers and other outliers like myself. Something for everyone.

As to the repeated mentions of Elon being stupid and not doing his research on the bus - you are certainly entitled to your own opinion - but it might make sense to learn more about it and possibly wait for an early sketch of the design before drawing strong conclusions. If there's intelligence or research in question I personally tend to give Elon the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, as I believe he has earned that.

Bingo.

Elon is capitalizing on the trend away from car ownership, not so much on the "love" of public transportation.

A super-cheap autonomous bus like Elon describes would be absolutely loved by urban millennials. It'd likely be a tenth the cost of Uber and even less than a private autonomous taxi.

How I imagine what Elon is imagining is a nearly full point-to-point transportation system. While it may not be as fast as a personal autonomous vehicle, it'd still be much faster than current public transportation, won't create more traffic/congestion compared to an urban SUV, and likely far cheaper in exchange for the longer timeframe. It'd operate sort of like an elevator, except each car could operate in a pre-determined space and it'd automatically snake itself around that area as efficiently as possible as people request pick-ups and drop-offs. It's a hybrid of public and private transportation, and I Imagine it'll be nothing like any current form of public transportation.

I could easily see this becoming a "free" service (tax-provided) by all major urban centers even. Free, fast transportation is incredibly powerful for lifting people out of poverty.
 
Why does it matter how many there are? This granular approach will allow greater utilization of the fleet by sending them where they're needed when they're needed. It will result in a faster / cheaper service.

Buses made sense because:
1) You only had to pay one person to drive all these people around.
2) It's more energy efficient / less polluting to operate a single large vehicle vs several smaller ones.
Wrong. Learn your history.
This concept addresses both of those points:
1) No driver required.
2) Electric drivetrains scale down efficiently.

Can you name me a self-driving electric bus company that has gone bankrupt? :)
Google PRT. (Personal Rapid Transit)
 
Sure, lots of people do. And history is littered with the bankrupt fools who tried to commercialize it, because *there's no market*.

The market for mass transportation is really dependent on the *mass*. If you have to shuttle tiny groups of people to their final destination, you probably don't have the mass. If you do have the mass, people are probably walking 1 or 2 blocks to their destination.

I suppose something like this could be the driverless taxi. But that's not mass transportation, that's a taxi.

Yes. Autonomous electric Taxi bus . Exactly!

I read the link you posted. Actually. It makes a lot of sense. Increasing taxi buses at the expense of mass transit sounds like a bad idea for the cities. But who says mass transit needs to go? Maybe taxi bus just replaces a bunch of personal cars that's only really used to buy groceries. Could still help a lot

And ever since I heard of about autonomous cars, I thought about the spreading out of populations. The invention of the car completely changed the landscape of civilisation. Automation can refine it further.

But I do understand your geometry argument. It sounds interesting. I hope to see elon address it in the future.
 
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If I weren't sick so much (chronic illness), bluntly, I would. I am smarter than Elon in some ways, but I can't work 24 hour days like he does; I can't even work 8 hour days like most people do. Making money off passive investments is, thankfully, a rather low time commitment.

Being smart is less valuable than most people think. Being healthy is much more useful.

I would be happy to advise Elon if he is interested in listening. In many areas he has seemed very willing to listen to people who know more than he does about a specialty, which is why his blind spot on public transportation is weird.

I've appreciated what you've contributed to the board. I always learn from your posts. I'd love to hear your analysis on where you think demand will end up for the X and S this year and the next few years. To me, demand and production are the only things that will have the most effect on the stock price, particularly in this period skepticism. Everything else is just sizzle.

Looking back on the boards, it seems that VIN 100,000 was issued sometime around August 1, 2015. VIN 153XXX was issued in the past few days. So it seems that demand / production on average over the year has been roughly 50-55K for the S. I think demand and production are pretty in sync these days given that wait times aren't really increasing and are holding steady. I know there are intricacies but this seems like a reasonable approximation.

Best I can tell, there have been roughly 15K VINS issued for the X through September. There are probably many orders for several foreign countries which haven't gotten VINS yet.

My concern is that Model S demand may plateau at 50-55K for the next few years. I cant say with confidence that Model X + S demand will be more than 80 K per year, unless the X takes off which I currently am not seeing evidence of. Perhaps adding new markets like South Korea will add some to this.

I would love to be proven wrong, by you or the many other smart people on the board. Not trying to ruffle feathers but bringing up the demand issue, just asking for help seeing concrete evidence of further escalation in demand.

Thx.
 
Elon's.


He's been proven wrong about buses already. Look, he's talking about a field I have studied fairly extensively, and what he's written is not just dumb, it's *common* dumb -- it's the stuff which people who are ignorant in the field typically spew, and which the professionals have to spend most of their time correcting. Which is why I'm being so rude about it.

So, I think best case scenario here is that it's another idea like using the AC Propulsion drivetrain. He goes in with a bad idea which will not work, and partway through he figures out that it won't work and designs something entirely different which will work. OK, but doing a little research would help him avoid spending a lot of money before figuring this out.
I'm guessing he's done some research before throwing this idea out there. Being an expert in a field can sometimes narrow your view a little bit because you are knowledgeable about the history of the thing. There may be an angle you haven't considered or an underserved market you never thought of or a clever design that makes it work. Maybe wait for more details before getting so agitated.

Personally, I see a market for this in dense, walkable urban areas (like where I live) for something between an Uber and a city bus. Parking is super expensive so people tend not to drive in to work or to nonwalkable city features. Public transportation to me and many others is just a terrible experience - smelly, overcrowded, being bound to a schedule, limited stops, etc. So I pretty much never use it. I walk most places (as I am young and healthy) or take a cab - which also kind of sucks and is very expensive. I'm not going to spend $20 every day to cab back and forth to work. I won't take public transportation for the reasons above. I would, however, pay a monthly fee to use the Tesla bus on demand. And I'd pay a premium over a city bus pass to avoid some of the unpleasantries associated with traditional public transit.

Then I think about people who don't like walking as much as I do, those who live in a bad weather city, food delivery companies, etc. etc. I think there's a market.
 
I'm not sure which generation you belong to, but I think you may be assigning a little too much value to your personal view on car sharing. Like it or not (I personally do not like it, for the record, I share your uneasiness with sharing my car), we are becoming a sharing economy and obviously it's being driven by the younger generation. Personally, I'm glad Elon is aiming his product at the younger generations (which, btw, these products become affordable to the young thanks to their willingness to share stuff). The trend is toward more and more sharing and I'd rather get in on a big trend at its infancy. Especially since full, permitted autonomy is probably 5 years away. Attitudes will continue to trend towards less sole ownership of cars and Tesla will be at the center. Let Tesla continue to produce more upscale, less sharing-oriented cars for the boomers and other outliers like myself. Something for everyone.

As to the repeated mentions of Elon being stupid and not doing his research on the bus - you are certainly entitled to your own opinion - but it might make sense to learn more about it and possibly wait for an early sketch of the design before drawing strong conclusions. If there's intelligence or research in question I personally tend to give Elon the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, as I believe he has earned that.

Sharing things (AKA "renting"), and receiving compensation for them, has become popular in recent years. Think; AirB&B, VRBO (Vacation Rentals By Owner), why there's even an online personal car rental site that already lets you rent other people's cars; (turo.com). Many have proved they are willing to do this, and it's becoming more popular all the time. Sure, many of us would rather not let some stranger use our homes or cars, but many are just fine with the idea. Like the guy who recently rented his gorgeous Tesla Model S (through turo) to my wife, so she could give me the best 2 day birthday present of my life. (8>))) 650 mile road trip in a Model S. Yeah baby!

We took exceptional care of his car, as I'm sure most would. Upon returning it, and thanking him for the opportunity, I said to him, "Wow, it's amazing you would trust a total stranger with your Tesla!" To which he responded, "You know, it's just a thing." !!!
 
I'm guessing it's a few other things:
(1) ships are slow, and our "want it now" society has caused shipping to move to trains, trucks, and airplanes. Shipping is mostly intercontinental now.
(2) Intercontinental shipping is badly unregulated, and mostly uses "bunker fuel" (nasty garbage). It's rather hard to compete on price with garbage; it's like the situation with gasoline in the 1900s. Until some international environmental regulations on shipping start happening, it'll be a tough market

I should note that Musk badly underestimates the efficiency of railroads (he's done this repeatedly), perhaps because he has never looked at the basic physics advantages which they have. (Does he even know about the conical wheels?) He can be really dumb in areas where he *has not done the basic research*.

I hope he does his research before investing stockholder money in his really stupid bus ideas. He wrote "eliminating the center aisle and putting seats where there are currently entryways," -- but we had streetcars, railroad trains, and buses like that in the 19th century. He should have bothered to look up why we don't have them any more. The situations which caused them to be eliminated (a -- safety for doorless systems, b -- cost of doors) hasn't changed. The aisle was a *technological improvement*."

Given the hassle he's had with car doors, I'd think Musk would be way more leery of designing a bus which had to have a door for each row. But apparently he hasn't bothered to think it through at *all*. The utter ignorant nonsense regarding buses is actually the most disappointing thing; the rest of the Master Plan seems well thought out.
Neroden, I'm curious. What do you view is new about this electric highway that was not available decades ago? If not much, then why is this technology not already widespread? Or why should we expect this technology to take off in the next ten years? My suspicion is that it is not truly cost competitive and requires significant public funding. Have any of these projects been completed without public funding? This is not meant to be a rhetorical question, I'm simply trying to understand why an obvious good idea has thus far failed to gain significant traction.
 
Bingo.

Elon is capitalizing on the trend away from car ownership, not so much on the "love" of public transportation.

A super-cheap autonomous bus like Elon describes would be absolutely loved by urban millennials. It'd likely be a tenth the cost of Uber and even less than a private autonomous taxi.

How I imagine what Elon is imagining is a nearly full point-to-point transportation system. While it may not be as fast as a personal autonomous vehicle,
Possibly faster.
it'd still be much faster than current public transportation,
Much slower than existing metro rail systems, and slower than existing light rail systems.
won't create more traffic/congestion compared to an urban SUV,
A bit less than taxis. But the congestion level is almost entirely determined by the drivers of private cars. In the busiest, most popular locations, induced demand causes them to fill up any available space, if they're allowed in. Enough private car drivers have weird biases about this that they'll drive their private cars even if it's significantly *slower* than the alternatives. In a city big enough and dense enough to need *mass* transportation, you *cannot* avoid congestion as long as you allow private cars into the lanes. Heck, if the lanes open up enough, you even get joyriders clogging them up.
and likely far cheaper in exchange for the longer timeframe.
Yeah, cheaper than a private SUV!
It'd operate sort of like an elevator, except each car could operate in a pre-determined space and it'd automatically snake itself around that area as efficiently as possible as people request pick-ups and drop-offs. It's a hybrid of public and private transportation, and I Imagine it'll be nothing like any current form of public transportation.

Interestingly, elevators actually have a problem with scaling up to huge passenger volumes, you just don't see it very often because most buildings don't have nearly enough people travelling for it to be an issue. It shows up in skyscrapers where added elevators to combat the traffic start crowding out rentable space.

Look, this is pretty much automated taxis. There's massive inefficiency in taxis right now -- drivers all clustering around the most profitable locations, for example -- so automated taxis are great. But it isn't *mass* transportation; it doesn't scale up. Consider what percentage of people take taxis vs. subways in major cities which have both. It's not just due to the price... it's because during rush hour, the taxis are stuck in traffic, and the subways are actually *faster*.

Mass transportation is what you need when you just have so many people moving that you can't give everyone their own two-ton armored vehicle and still fit them into the street. (And the distances are too far to walk.) That's why it was called "mass" transportation.

Personally, I see a market for this in dense, walkable urban areas (like where I live) for something between an Uber and a city bus.
Maybe, but it'll face the same congestion as Uber or a cab. In rush hour it will be slower than a subway, metro, light rail, or Vancouver Skytrain. (Look, fully automated electric trains, already in use.) This sort of "intermediate" option is not mass transportation, it's a driverless taxi.

Which is fine, except that Musk claimed he was addressing "high passenger-density urban transport". Which shows that he *does not know what he's talking about*, because he immediately proposes smaller buses which have inherently lower density.
 
Neroden, I'm curious. What do you view is new about this electric highway that was not available decades ago?
Ability of the trucks to run on battery for a few miles off the wire. So really this is made possible by battery improvements. Interesting, eh?

A few years ago, you would have had to have complicated trolley-wire junctions at every junction for each truck to diverge and park. Yeeech!
 
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