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I think it important that we not look at batteries or electrolyzers in isolation to RE. Stand-alone systems are not capital efficient.

Not for generators. But there is opportunity along the chain:
- Utility: deferral of transmission upgrades by placing storage beyond bottlenecks
- Business: peak shaving, smart charging EVs, V2H, V2G.
- Individuals: smart charging EVs, V2H, V2G

In particular, when considering future storage solutions, it's important to remember that if EVs are successful there will be a _huge_ amount of both battery capacity and electricity demand.
 
Not for generators. But there is opportunity along the chain:
- Utility: deferral of transmission upgrades by placing storage beyond bottlenecks
- Business: peak shaving, smart charging EVs, V2H, V2G.
- Individuals: smart charging EVs, V2H, V2G

In particular, when considering future storage solutions, it's important to remember that if EVs are successful there will be a _huge_ amount of both battery capacity and electricity demand.
One of the energy thought leaders I follow is starting to project that by 2040 80% of all energy will be self-generated. I'm not sure how he's getting to that specific, but I agree with the general direction.

So let's suppose a business has its own solar resources. It would be beneficial to tie this to on-site battery storage. This can help with peak shaving, peak generation, and help with transmission. First it avoids transmission, but if it is open to influence by grid operators, it can also reduce congestion locally and provide other grid services.

So the sort of opportunities you point to above can be also be realized by distributed storage integrated with solar or other RE. I would recommend that the capital efficiencies of integrated storage will tend to motivate faster scale up of capacity. Stand alone systems also run the risk of becoming stranded assets. Indeed if 80% of power were self-generated, the whole grid becomes a secondary distributor of surplus power and runs the risk of asset stranding.

For example, the whole grid in California is scaled up to support annual peaks around 50GW. But average consumption is about 25GW. So if there were sufficient battery capacity integrated with consumption and generation, the peak could be shaved down to 35GW. This strands some 30% of T&D capacity. But let's take this a step further and imagine some 80% or 20GW avg is self-generated. Thus average demand for grid power drops to 5GW and the peak could be shaved down to about 7GW. Thus, some 85% of grid capacity could become stranded.

Tony Seba has also warned against this possibility calling it "God parity." Basically once distributed solar+battery is cheaper than the transmission and distribution cost of grid power, then zero cost centralized power generation becomes uncompetitive. This basically means that all centralized generation is priced out of the market. So the role of the tramission grid is greatly reduced, it mostly carries surplus self-generated power and acts a a backup system.

Now I am not quite ready to buy into Seba's vision here. I do accept that distributed power generation can get to this level, but I also anticipate that electrolyzers and other commercial uses of bulk centralized power can keep the value of grid power sufficiently high. Hydrogen figures into seasonal balancing of energy supply. So that is a tough nut to crack that throws a wrench into God parity ideas, to mix three metaphors.
 
Now I am not quite ready to buy into Seba's vision here. I do accept that distributed power generation can get to this level, but I also anticipate that electrolyzers and other commercial uses of bulk centralized power can keep the value of grid power sufficiently high. Hydrogen figures into seasonal balancing of energy supply. So that is a tough nut to crack that throws a wrench into God parity ideas, to mix three metaphors.
Why would I buy bulk centralized grid power when I can buy Tesla's aggregated decentralized offering at a much lower price during peak hours(days, seasons)?

I would think anything centralized will purely be for "topping off" by 2040. As in a grid operator saying, "Hey, everyone's at 60%....fire up the gas plant for 8 hours tonight."
 
Thanks. We need to correct a few misconceptions from this article. First, the IEA estimates are high, which is not a typical for the agency when it comes to RE technologies. Nel, a leading producer of electrolyzers in Europe, is willing to write large (GW scale) contracts at $300/kW, well below the $840/kW quoted from the IEA. They have written such a contract with Nikola, though I am skeptical about Nikola being able to live up to its side of the contract. Even so, the issue for Nel is scaling up to achieve lower production costs. Moreover, in Asia, electrolyzer costs have already fallen into the $300/kW range. Further global scale up of the industry should support declining prices. Getting to the multi GW scale is critical.

The second issue regards operating electrolyzers at high load factors. The idea goes like this, the high capex of electrolyzers mean they have to be operated near 100% of the time to achieve a low levelized cost of hydrogen. This is a common framing, but it is misleading and commits a sunk cost fallacy. Once capacity has been built, the levelized cost of production is irrelevant. All prior investment is a sunk cost. What matters for obtaining optimal return is that the capacity is operated whenever it marginally profitable to do so. So this depends on the marginal value of hydrogen and the real-time marginal cost of power. Whenever there is power below a certain parity price for the price of hydrogen, the electrolyzer will run. Running strictly off grid power means that load factors are limited to 30% to 50%. However, there is a way to boost the load factor by coupling electrolyzer capacity to RE generation that in excess of what can be delivered to the grit.

For example, suppose you build a 100MWac solar farm that has say 200MWdc of actual panels. This means the inverter and interconnection capacity is limited to 100MWac and the farm can never put more than 100MW onto the grid. The PV capacity, however, is twice this amount. Whenever the PV modules are generating above about 105Mdc, the excess power cannot be put on the grid. This is called clipping, and it a way to increase the reliability and capacity factor of solar power. So presumably there is a PPA offtake contract for this 100MWac. So what can an electrolyzer or battery do with this surplus power above 105MWdc? Suppose we co-locate 50MWdc of electrolyzer capacity. So when the sun is cranking out more than 105MWdc, the electrolyzer has access to power at zero marginal cost. We know this has zero marginal cost because it is excess to what can physically be put on the grid and there are no other buyers for the power. (Now if we add a battery to the mix, then the battery also competes with electrolyzer for this surplus power, but the battery is limited in how much energy it can store and what rate it can charge. Thus, even with a battery, they system still obtains conditions under which surplus power has zero or very low marginal cost. So to keep the analysis simple, we will ignore the marginal demand from a battery, though it is an important part of optimizing the economics of a hybrid system.) Thus, the electrolyzer operates when there is surplus power (zero marginal cost). This may be only a few hours per day, but this is only a lower bound on the load factor. Because again, the electrolyzer can also run profitably whenever the grid power price is below parity for hydrolysis. To make the most of this we will assume that the interconnection and inverter are bi-directional. Thus, whenever the sun is not shining the electrolyzer can pull cheap power off the grid. Even when the solar is delivering 100MWac per PPA a fraction of this can be bought back for the electrolyzer.

This may be surprizing to many, but it makes total economic sense. The PPA is generally sold to a utility which is trying to make money selling power. It has an interest in both cheap supply and price responsive demand. So consider a PPA structured so that the buyer pays $40/MWh for upto 100MWac of solar, however the sell retains the option to buy back up to 50MWac at wholesale price whenever the price is below $40/MWh. This is actually beneficial for the PPA buyer to offer the buyback option. Otherwise, the buyer is obligated to pay the seller $40/MWh on a full 100MW even when the wholesale market is a cheaper source of power for the buyer. That is, under a standard PPA, the buyer is actually losing money whenever the wholesale price is below $40/MWh. So the buyback option for the electrolyzer limits how much the PPA buyer can lose. The arrangement also helps the grid to avoid extremely low prices and the need for curtailments. This is beneficial for all competing generators, especially other solar generators that need to fetch reasonable prices while the sun shines.

So in conclusion for this little example of solar PV+electrolyzer, the electrolyzer operates whenever wholesale price is below parity or when there is surplus PV power that can't be sold on the grid. Thus, this placement of an electrolyzer has a higher profitable load factor than an electrolyzer that draws power only from the grid. I would also point out that the electrolyzer shares inverter and interconnection capacity with the solar PV, which improves the utilization of those assets beyond what solar alone or electrolyzer alone would obtain. Thus, the combination achieves higher capital efficiency and larger load factors.

I would also point out that the opportunity to add battery storage to solar is quite similar. The difference there is that the battery discharges back into the grid with the wholesale price is high. The higher expected daily prices set the parity price up to which the battery can profitably charge. Suppose you have 200MWdc PV with inverter and interconnection at 100MWac and a 100MWac / 400MWh battery. While solar PV output is above 105MWdc, you have a surplus with zero marginal cost with which to charge the battery. So usually there is enough surplus solar to top off the 400MWh storage capacity. Suppose this gets discharge at peak prices in th evening. There is also an opportunity to recharge the battery overnight from the grid for early morning generation. Suppose the you have two hours at a price of $55/MWh in the early morning. You can sell 200MWh. So overnight you will charge the batteries for the cheapest two hours, so long as the price is below parity, abut $50/MWh. Buying at say, $20/MWh, provides $30/MWh of marginal profit, or $6,000 for the 200MWh discharge. Let's suppose the evening discharge was 400MWh at $60/MWh. This was charged from surplus solar at zero marginal cost, so the marginal profit here is $60/MWh on 400MWh, or $24,000 for the evening. Putting these together the 400MWh battery is discharging 600MWh per 24-hour cycle and generating $30,000 in marginal profit. The point here is that the battery that is co-located with the PV supply is able to achieve higher capacity factor (discharge utilization) and has access to power at lower marginal cost than the grid. And it is able to share inverter and interconnection capacity with the solar. So both solar and battery achieve higher capital efficiency when combined.

This is very similar to how combining with an electrolyzer improves financial performance. But a key difference is that the battery is limited by how much it can store (400MWh) and by how much it can profitably deliver in a narrow window of time (200MWh in the early morning). An electrolyzer is not really limited in this way (assuming tank capacity and offtake agreements are more than adequate for high load factors). So the battery will be hunting for the cheapest power to buy for charging, while the electrolyzer will simply run whenever power is available below parity prices. They have different and complementary buying profiles. Thus, it makes sense to pair solar (and/or wind) with some combination of battery and electrolyzer capacity. The combination will make optimal use of surplus RE generation (above the interconnection capacity) and lead to higher capital efficiency. The superhybrid operations are even harder to describe than the simpler setups. There is even a case where it can be marginally profitable to run the electrolyzer off of the battery. For simple example, if peak power prices are not of sufficient duration to use the full charge of the battery the excess gets dumped to the electrolyzer before RE goes back into surplus generation again. I would also point out that this can be a little more energy efficient than using the inverter to pull AC from the grid to supply DC to the electrolyzer. Even though these operating modes can be infrequent it could add a few points to both the electrolyzer load factor and the battery capacity factor and load factor. So it is all about driving up the capital efficiency. The flip side for the grid is that more RE can be integrated into the grid this way to be available to supply the grid when wholesale prices climb higher. And this is absolutely essential to realizing as soon as possible a 100% renewable grid.

I think it important that we not look at batteries or electrolyzers in isolation to RE. Stand-alone systems are not capital efficient. This kind of siloed thinking can lead us to think that these technologies are too expensive and will take too long to reach scale. I do think that the superhybrid (solar+wind+battery+electrolyzer) is the Holy Grail of deep decarbonization. The challenge is not really cost at this point. The challenges is how to integrate these technologies to optimize financial performance. Companies are going to need to get a lot of experience doing this to figure out how the combination can create the most value for the grid (and investors). The electrolyzer bit is still at demonstration scale, but the how superhybrid needs to find its optimal scales efficiency. As innovative companies advance on this learning curve, I think well find an inflection point where superhybrids run ahead of conventional demand for generation capacity. That is, at some point, the economic value extracted from the hydrogen market cracks open an energy market much bigger than the power grid has served. Through superhybrids, the grid becomes a net producer of gases rather than a net consumer. This will take demand for wind and solar power to much higher levels than mere service to the grid. So there is a tipping point where these new economics start to take over. But anyone whose imagination is limited to batteries or electrolyzers as stand-alone assets tied to the grid only will not see the synergies that make this inflection point much more immediate.
Here's an interesting idea...
Using Ammonia As Jet Fuel - Sustainable Aviation Fuel

Could ammonia be the next great hope for carbon-neutral aircraft flight? Researchers have finished an early feasibility study of how the noxious chemical might be concentrated and used as propulsion fuel. The project is a collaboration between the startup Reaction Engines and U.K. Research and Innovation’s Science and Technology Facilities Council (STFC).
 
Here's an interesting idea...
Using Ammonia As Jet Fuel - Sustainable Aviation Fuel

Could ammonia be the next great hope for carbon-neutral aircraft flight? Researchers have finished an early feasibility study of how the noxious chemical might be concentrated and used as propulsion fuel. The project is a collaboration between the startup Reaction Engines and U.K. Research and Innovation’s Science and Technology Facilities Council (STFC).

Ammonia (NH3) produces NOx byproducts (same byproducts of burning gasoline due to nitrogen in air), which are the primary components of smog. Waste of research dollars.
 
Here's an interesting idea...
Using Ammonia As Jet Fuel - Sustainable Aviation Fuel

Could ammonia be the next great hope for carbon-neutral aircraft flight? Researchers have finished an early feasibility study of how the noxious chemical might be concentrated and used as propulsion fuel. The project is a collaboration between the startup Reaction Engines and U.K. Research and Innovation’s Science and Technology Facilities Council (STFC).

Don't forget how ammonia is made at scale: by reacting N2 + 3H2 at high temperature and pressure. Today almost all H2 is so-called "brown hydrogen", produced via steam reformation of natural gas. So replacing jet fuel with H2 and ammonia is basically a complicated and inefficient way to replace petroleum with natural gas.

Naturally this changes if we can scale up production of green hydrogen from surplus renewable energy. But today green hydrogen is still in single-digit percentages of total hydrogen production.
 
Why would I buy bulk centralized grid power when I can buy Tesla's aggregated decentralized offering at a much lower price during peak hours(days, seasons)?

I would think anything centralized will purely be for "topping off" by 2040. As in a grid operator saying, "Hey, everyone's at 60%....fire up the gas plant for 8 hours tonight."
No I'm not saying there would be centralized generation. That's debatable, and it makes no sense to fire up a gas generator to run electrolyzers. Rather what I am suggesting is that the grid becomes a clearinghouse for excess (mostly decentralized) generation. This could create an opportunity for centralized adaptive consumption like electrolyzers. So this is a complete reversal of a grid sending power from centralized generators to distributed consumer to the oppose where you have centralized consumers receiving power from distributed generators.
 
Big battery costs have reached a tipping point – and gas is struggling to compete | RenewEconomy

Gas is losing ground to batteries. It's all about declining cost.
Gas is struggling to compete with batteries, with gas prices globally being at historic lows.

When gas prices recover, gas will not be able to compete. The cost deflation will ensure batteries pay a larger role in the power system at the expense of gas in the very short term.
upload_2020-9-7_8-42-37.png

Note that the levelized cost of battery storage (belive this include cost of charging) was cheaper in 2018 than was PV in 2010. It is now cheaper than PV was in 2014. So batteries are quickly catching up to solar and wind in terms of levelized cost. Of course, the value of stored electricity will always be higher than that for solar or wind because batteries can discharge whenever the price of power is higher. So it is not necessary for battery storage to completely catch up with solar cost.

Naturally, this cost decline will put increasing price pressure on gas. Gas and LNG prices are unsustainable low. I don't see much opportunity for gas prices to recover much. Higher gas prices will only result in higher demand for batteries.
 
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So it looks like Tesla Energy installed 419 MWh of storage last quarter. The article in the previous post lists, by my count, about 14 GWh of battery projects planned for the next few years (and it included only projects in Australia and California). Seems like a pretty decent growth opportunity, if battery capacity holds up. Will be great to hear about the battery production road map on the 22nd. :)
 
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So it looks like Tesla Energy installed 419 MWh of storage last quarter. The article in the previous post lists, by my count, about 14 [GWh--edit.] of battery projects planned for the next few years (and it included only projects in Australia and California). Seems like a pretty decent growth opportunity, if battery capacity holds up. Will be great to hear about the battery production road map on the 22nd. :)

And here's another 2.7 GW in the pipeline (probably about 10 GWh). NextEra’s next era in California could see 2,700MW of batteries installed by 2024

Note that 3 huge multiple GWh initiatives have been announced in California alone in just the past month (Vistra, NextEra and Capital Dynamics).

The next few years we should see more and more of these massive projects, along with very large virtual power plant initiatives, primed by rapidly falling costs of rooftop solar and home batteries and VPP pilot projects proving successful.

NextEra’s next era in California could see 2,700MW of batteries installed by 2024
 
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Jhm is my goto for understanding the shifting market. I just learned of the "Energy Options Network" via interactions with one of their founders. Seems to me they have a lot of nulcear talent, and are really pushing geothermal, hydrogen and all manner of new ideas for fission/possible fusion. I'm not against any solution that works, however a lot of these types of groups are:

1. fronts for delaying roll out of renewables, delaying fossil fuel declines
2. fronts for centralized power generation, whether large-scale utilities (Duke Energy grads in this case) or governments who have picked these lines of thinking.

My reading is summarized thus:
1. Traditional fusion is dead as a near term option to build more in time. But we must keep the existing ones open for now.
2. SMR like Nuscale are overbudget and keep pushing deadlines, who knows how viable.
3. We don't have time to wait for the other tech to become viable, if they ever do. We can meet 75% of emissions goals with existing tech. Yes, the last 25...or really 10% will be tough without new tech. But I'm afraid those investing for tech that will be sussed out 10-20 years from now will on the whole be much, much too late. We are deeper into climate change than we predicted, and it's speeding up.

What do others know/think of this group?
Home | Energy Options Network
 
WTI down nearly 8% today on "demand fears". I think we're gonna see a pretty big end of year glut both in oil contracts and actual oil.

Will be interesting to see how the oil tanker stocks move with this glut trading, they're mostly hovering around their recent lows. 3Q earnings/dividends will be very interesting. Hopefully the 2Q glut boost to revenues continues thru 3Q and we hear talk of the "storage play" being more of a permanent fixture post-demand-peak.
 
OMG... I am embarassed I wrote that! Traditional FISSION. Ugh.

What is with the nuclear groups? Nuclear engineers, lots of engineers actually seem to support. I get that fossil fuel and large utility corps push it with heavy bias/self-interest. Is that it? I'm met with Union of Concerned Scientists and followed for years, their nuclear advocacy/hesitancy over the years seems better balanced.
 
Jhm is my goto for understanding the shifting market. I just learned of the "Energy Options Network" via interactions with one of their founders. Seems to me they have a lot of nulcear talent, and are really pushing geothermal, hydrogen and all manner of new ideas for fission/possible fusion. I'm not against any solution that works, however a lot of these types of groups are:

1. fronts for delaying roll out of renewables, delaying fossil fuel declines
2. fronts for centralized power generation, whether large-scale utilities (Duke Energy grads in this case) or governments who have picked these lines of thinking.

My reading is summarized thus:
1. Traditional fusion is dead as a near term option to build more in time. But we must keep the existing ones open for now.
2. SMR like Nuscale are overbudget and keep pushing deadlines, who knows how viable.
3. We don't have time to wait for the other tech to become viable, if they ever do. We can meet 75% of emissions goals with existing tech. Yes, the last 25...or really 10% will be tough without new tech. But I'm afraid those investing for tech that will be sussed out 10-20 years from now will on the whole be much, much too late. We are deeper into climate change than we predicted, and it's speeding up.

What do others know/think of this group?
Home | Energy Options Network
The nuclear advocates annoy the sugar out of me. It's too expensive and not deployable or scalable in a relevant timeframe for halting climate change. Only wind, solar and battery can deploy fast at scale. Even if nuclear capacity were to double over the next three decades, it would still provide less than 10% of the energy the global economy requires. But as it is, it is struggle just to replace aging nuclear plants with new ones just to maintain global production levels.

Moreover, it is silly for nuclear advocates to pitch hydrogen from electrolysis. Nuclear power is simply too expensive to generate hydrogen. If SMR really was a great as proponents talk it up, the industry would be cranking them out faster than solar panels.

WSB is the scalable tech we've got, and it is driving costs down low enough to make hydrogen work. Nuclear advocates are constantly fighting with each other over whether they should be nice to renewable advocates. But ultimately the cost economics of WSB drive both fossil and nuclear generators out of the market. So it doesn't matter whether nuclear advocates play nice with renewable advocates; they lose on economics in either case. They know they lose on economics which is why they have to push so hard on politics to secure public funding. WSB on the other hand benefits in the short run and locally from public funding, but ultimately does not require subsidization.
 
WTI down nearly 8% today on "demand fears". I think we're gonna see a pretty big end of year glut both in oil contracts and actual oil.

Will be interesting to see how the oil tanker stocks move with this glut trading, they're mostly hovering around their recent lows. 3Q earnings/dividends will be very interesting. Hopefully the 2Q glut boost to revenues continues thru 3Q and we hear talk of the "storage play" being more of a permanent fixture post-demand-peak.

Holy cow, that is a brutal price drop. Brent is under $40 again.

On a positive note, the oil tankers could take this opportunities to install solar panels. Then they could cruise on slowly solar power alone into port before the oil is actually needed.

Oh, wait. Would that be greenwashing to use solar power to ship oil?
 
My home and car are powered by nuclear fusion. The fusion reactor is a relatively safe 93 million miles away and it transmits power to my home wirelessly for roughly half the 24-hour day, allowing me to capture and store enough to carry me through the night. The advocates of fusion are going about it wrong. They are trying to solve the problems of containment through magnetic fields. The correct way to solve containment is with a gravitational field. Then you use a magnetic field to protect yourself from charged particles that escape the gravitational containment. Nikola Tesla in his loony years claimed to be able to transmit power wirelessly, but that was the wrong question. The power is already being transmitted wirelessly, for free. All we need to do is receive it, which is so easy that the hardest part is deciding which company you want to buy your collector from. Where I live, the state and federal governments combined paid for 1/3 of my fusion-energy collector and storage.

Free thermonuclear power generator:

APOD: 2018 September 16 - A Solar Filament Erupts
 
On a positive note, the oil tankers could take this opportunities to install solar panels. Then they could cruise on slowly solar power alone into port before the oil is actually needed.

Oh, wait. Would that be greenwashing to use solar power to ship oil?
You start a SPAC tomorrow with the plan to retrofit tankers with solar for floating storage and I'm all in! Genius!

Talk about the perfect hedge for this transition.
 
  • Funny
Reactions: jhm
My home and car are powered by nuclear fusion. The fusion reactor is a relatively safe 93 million miles away and it transmits power to my home wirelessly for roughly half the 24-hour day, allowing me to capture and store enough to carry me through the night. The advocates of fusion are going about it wrong. They are trying to solve the problems of containment through magnetic fields. The correct way to solve containment is with a gravitational field. Then you use a magnetic field to protect yourself from charged particles that escape the gravitational containment. Nikola Tesla in his loony years claimed to be able to transmit power wirelessly, but that was the wrong question. The power is already being transmitted wirelessly, for free. All we need to do is receive it, which is so easy that the hardest part is deciding which company you want to buy your collector from. Where I live, the state and federal governments combined paid for 1/3 of my fusion-energy collector and storage.

Free thermonuclear power generator:

APOD: 2018 September 16 - A Solar Filament Erupts
I was telling some friends that my daughter helped me install a "solar system". They were quick to point out that we didn't install the solar system, it was already installed. I then modified my boast to explain that we just plugged into the solar system.