So… Highland is out…

[FastLaneJB]

Frankly I hope there’s enough push back that they reverse course on this. Just waiting for a steady stream of Sun articles on it and others. I can see the headlines now:

“New model 3 missed the turn to the EV charger as driver tried to find the indicators. It then ran out of juice leaving the owners stranded, not long after it caught fire and exploded just after everyone got clear! Bill says he’s never buying an EV again.”

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

These are mere speculations.

I am not in the stalk or no stalk camp. But I don’t think it is that hard to indicate without the stalk. Yes, I haven’t driven it, so I can’t comment on whether this is an improvement over stalks or not and I don’t agree with the view of @GeorgeSymonds and few others that this is definitely not an improvement over stalks. But when a group of people constantly saying how dangerous it is to take the eye off the road, I am slightly concerned - not finger pointing at anyone but if you are a Tesla owner the car does to an extent make you take the eye off the road many times because of the way we interact with the car. And a slight gaze from the corner of our eyes on the steering wheel while near the round about isn’t going to increase the accident rate dramatically and that is my humble opinion. The switches are marked visually with a reasonable distance where you can quickly figure out which one to press even if it is upside down. And there is some tactile feedback on top of that.


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I’ve said nobody is arguing they’re better, at best the argument is they’re parity. I’ve also said I think some will be put off buying because of them, and I doubt anyone will buy a Tesla because of them. Do you really believe they’ll be better? In what way? What’s wrong with stalks that you think will be improved upon? I’m happy to be educated I’ve just not heard an argument that suggests they’ll be better, only that if people don’t like them they can by aftermarket add ons

 

[Pagemakers]

They are cheaper!

 

[pdk42]

The fact that there are so many posts about the stalks tells us all we need to know about how controversial their removal is. Personally, it’s a deal breaker - I can see no positive benefit, but a whole lot of downsides (a bit like Brexit really!). However, if a decent after-market option becomes available (i.e. it works and is reasonably easy to install) then I’d go for it. Strangely, I don’t feel the same about the loss of USS parking sensors and could live without them.

But overall, I think many people will hesitate because of the lack of stalks - so I think it will cost them some sales - how many of course will be hard to know. It seems a totally bizarre decision - a solution to a problem no one had.

 

[Pagemakers]

Cheaper not to have them. There will be some BS spin though.

 

[spdpsba]

Do you really believe they’ll be better? In what way? What’s wrong with stalks that you think will be improved upon? I’m happy to be educated I’ve just not heard an arg

I don’t know that and none of us have a crystal ball. The only analogy but a bit flawed one is Steve Jobs removed the buttons from the very first edition iphone - not many people believed that is an improvement over blackberry or Treo. We now know what happened. It is hard to quantify certain things without knowing what will be there in the future. None of us thought the whole process of iding in a bank app using face recognition or even getting some mobile connections with finger print recognition in asian/african countries is possible without the invent of modern phones. What made that possible was big screen space in a mobile phone and no buttons.

As mentioned above there is nothing wrong with the stalks but assuming the removal of these stalks are just cost cutting/Elon’s weird idea is too simplistic view and dismiss how innovative ideas evolve over a period of time challenging the existing ideas. Stalks been there for a long while and their functionality can be done in a different way - and more can be integrated either as a button in a steering wheel or as part of the larger concept. Losing stalk isn’t going to be the end of model 3.

 

[pdk42]

I don’t know that and none of us have a crystal ball. The only analogy but a bit flawed one is Steve Jobs removed the buttons from the very first edition iphone - not many people believed that is an improvement over blackberry or Treo. We now know what happened. It is hard to quantify certain things without knowing what will be there in the future. None of us thought the whole process of iding in a bank app using face recognition or even getting some mobile connections with finger print recognition in asian/african countries is possible without the invent of modern phones. What made that possible was big screen space in a mobile phone and no buttons.

As mentioned above there is nothing wrong with the stalks but assuming the removal of these stalks are just cost cutting/Elon’s weird idea is too simplistic view and dismiss how innovative ideas evolve over a period of time challenging the existing ideas. Stalks been there for a long while and their functionality can be done in a different way - and more can be integrated either as a button in a steering wheel or as part of the larger concept. Losing stalk isn’t going to be the end of model 3.

Removing stalks isn’t innovative or new. It’s been done before (e.g. by Citroen in the original XM). It didn’t catch on because it offered no benefits over the stalks on nearly every other car.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I don’t know that and none of us have a crystal ball. The only analogy but a bit flawed one is Steve Jobs removed the buttons from the very first edition iphone - not many people believed that is an improvement over blackberry or Treo. We now know what happened. It is hard to quantify certain things without knowing what will be there in the future. None of us thought the whole process of iding in a bank app using face recognition or even getting some mobile connections with finger print recognition in asian/african countries is possible without the invent of modern phones. What made that possible was big screen space in a mobile phone and no buttons.

As mentioned above there is nothing wrong with the stalks but assuming the removal of these stalks are just cost cutting/Elon’s weird idea is too simplistic view and dismiss how innovative ideas evolve over a period of time challenging the existing ideas. Stalks been there for a long while and their functionality can be done in a different way - and more can be integrated either as a button in a steering wheel or as part of the larger concept. Losing stalk isn’t going to be the end of model 3.

Some people didn’t like the removal of keyboards on their phones because they were used to how it worked. Apple proved that it wasn’t the best solution.

However I also remember Steve coming out and telling people they were holding their phone wrong on the iPhone 4 when you held it at the bottom and the mobile signal hugely reduced or dropped completely. They had to ship out free cases to all iPhone 4 owners to solve it. The fixed it on the iPhone 5 by fixing their hardware design.

This is Elon’s holding it wrong moment, the same as his Yoke. He’s not offering a revolutionary solution to something that people will grow to love. He’s just trying to save some money on manufacturing. I’m sure he’d love to ship them without a steering wheel and you could turn by sliding your finger left and right on the touch screen like in a driving game until FSD arrives but sadly it’s not legal so he cannot.

 

[MrT3]

Someone who specifically wants a Tesla will possibly be willing to compromise and accept it will take time to get use to the buttons.

Someone who is on a salary sacrifice scheme who schedules a 30 min test drive is going to hand it back at the end and tell the sales agent there is no way I'm ordering a car without stalks and will choose something else.

Given that Tesla is pushing for mass market adoption, and a large proportion of EV car sales in the UK are because of tax incentives rather than people specifically wanting an EV, I can only see it having a negative impact on sales.

As has been said above, there is no upside to the owner in removing stalks.

 

[zoomer0056]

I’ve just not heard an argument that suggests they’ll be better

That's because there's no argument . . . nobody is saying it'll be better.

 

[FastLaneJB]

That's because there's no argument . . . nobody is saying it'll be better.

Some seem to be defending Tesla or saying if might not be that bad. Maybe it’s not as bad as we all think but they could have avoided this completely by just leaving the stalks.

There might be one plus… massive price cuts when they cannot sell enough and need to shift them. Might be a reason why the Model Y refresh is coming a year later roughly, gives them a bit of time to see if they need stalks on that car or not. More than anything they cannot afford to screw up Model Y volume.

 

[SO16]

Removing stalks isn’t innovative or new. It’s been done before (e.g. by Citroen in the original XM). It didn’t catch on because it offered no benefits over the stalks on nearly every other car.

The difference is that Tesla is banking on autonomy. (Rightly or wrongly.). They are thinking one day people won’t even be using the steering wheel.

 

[MrT3]

The difference is that Tesla is banking on autonomy. (Rightly or wrongly.). They are thinking one day people won’t even be using the steering wheel.

Removing stalks doesn’t advance their pursuit of autonomy. Once they achieve it they can then remove the stalks.

 

[SO16]

Removing stalks doesn’t advance their pursuit of autonomy. Once they achieve it they can then remove the stalks.

Tesla seems to want to do things in reverse. Remove something before the next thing is ready. Maybe Elon feels it puts pressure on their autonomy team. I don’t like this method either but it’s what they appear to do. (And for cost cutting.)

 

[pdk42]

The difference is that Tesla is banking on autonomy. (Rightly or wrongly.). They are thinking one day people won’t even be using the steering wheel.

I can see world peace happening before FSD actually works.

 

[MkPotato]

Some people didn’t like the removal of keyboards on their phones because they were used to how it worked. Apple proved that it wasn’t the best solution.

However I also remember Steve coming out and telling people they were holding their phone wrong on the iPhone 4 when you held it at the bottom and the mobile signal hugely reduced or dropped completely. They had to ship out free cases to all iPhone 4 owners to solve it. The fixed it on the iPhone 5 by fixing their hardware design.

This is Elon’s holding it wrong moment, the same as his Yoke. He’s not offering a revolutionary solution to something that people will grow to love. He’s just trying to save some money on manufacturing. I’m sure he’d love to ship them without a steering wheel and you could turn by sliding your finger left and right on the touch screen like in a driving game until FSD arrives but sadly it’s not legal so he cannot.

Thats suggesting that the entire car industry is going to move towards stalkless design because it’s the “best way” of indicating. It isn’t. Decades of muscle memory has evolved in the driving population; we expect indicators on the left hand side of the steering wheel, and changing that is like deciding a hand control for acceleration is better in the steering wheel. Even if it were “better”, it would be idiotic to change it, as we subconsciously know how cars drive.

If you’ve ever driven a car with “rocker” (Citroen) or right hand side stalk (some 80s Japanese cars), you’ll know what an utter pain in the arse it is. It takes a long time to get used to (if at all - you still make mistakes on occasion), then as soon as you drive a normal car, you’re all over the place again. There’s a reason controls are standardised, and Tesla are idiotic for messing with it.

Driving requires concentration, and doing anything to detract from that makes it less safe. The 3 isn’t niche model bought by techie enthusiasts willing to try something new (like the yoke based S and X), it’s a mass-market volume product that they presumably want ICE drivers to migrate to. Making it awkward to drive is mental.

If car reviewers (who are used to hopping from one car to another) find it awkward, I can safely say I (never mind eg my wife, parents etc) will find it an utter pain in the arse.

 

[spdpsba]

Removing stalks doesn’t advance their pursuit of autonomy. Once they achieve it they can then remove the stalks.

That’s not how things work. Modern phones didn’t get all these great apps as soon as Steve removed the buttons. It took almost 5 iterations before the concept of apps for business solutions became available to common man.! Steve didn’t wait till all of them developed the apps before removing buttons from the phones.

 

[spdpsba]

right hand side stalk (some 80s Japanese cars), you’ll know what an utter pain in the arse it is. It takes a long time to get used to

Almost a billion population drive with right hand stalk in south east Asia without any problems and call the European way of left hand stalks as a pain if you’ve not been to that part of the world. We get used to it and it is not hard to change unless you don’t want to change.

 

[MrBadger]

That’s not how things work. Modern phones didn’t get all these great apps as soon as Steve removed the buttons. It took almost 5 iterations before the concept of apps for business solutions became available to common man.! Steve didn’t wait till all of them developed the apps before removing buttons from the phones.

Your confusing removal of buttons on a phone with fundamental change of critical interface on a vehicle that potentially has safety implications.

FSD will not come any faster because the buttons are removed. And many posts use the flawed argument that every Tesla has or will have FSD or even EAP both of which require indicating to initiate some of their features.

I see an argument that indicators are no longer indicators, but a control that initiates a lane change and the rest is handled automatically. But how many cars in UK are delivered with that feature set? I’m guessing much less than 10%. So it’s a flawed argument for 90%+ of Teslas sold.

Applications developed as they did not because ‘Steve removed buttons’ (he didn’t btw, I had touch screen devices long before Apple adopted that approach). What app developers leveraged was a general performance shift in handheld device technology and they would have done that with or without buttons.

Loss of buttons did not drive that, in same way that loss of indicator stalks will not drive autonomous vehicles. Other technology improvements will drive that (whilst maintaining or exceeding safety parity) and confusing that with Tesla removing indicator stalks is rather naive.

 

[MrBadger]

Almost a billion population drive with right hand stalk in south east Asia without any problems and call the European way of left hand stalks as a pain if you’ve not been to that part of the world. We get used to it and it is not hard to change unless you don’t want to change.

Why do racing car drivers have their car controls specifically set up for them? Why do we have adjustable controls in most vehicles?

Because otherwise it would impact performance and safety.

Would love to see you arguing ‘just get use to it Max’ in the Formula 1 drivers briefing.