So… Highland is out…

[Pagemakers]

There is a huge difference in the road structure in Musk’s USA compared to the roundabout riddled streets of the UK. Our indicator use here must be x10 if not more. In most cases in the USA the steering wheel will be correctly orientated when simply turning left or right at a junction.

Another thought, what happens to all the Tesla hire cars where Joe Public hire a vehicle and have never seen indicator buttons before? They are going to have a steep learning curve.

I see Highlanders are starting to be delivered across Europe. Will be interesting reading some Joe Public reviews over the coming days and weeks.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Thats suggesting that the entire car industry is going to move towards stalkless design because it’s the “best way” of indicating. It isn’t. Decades of muscle memory has evolved in the driving population; we expect indicators on the left hand side of the steering wheel, and changing that is like deciding a hand control for acceleration is better in the steering wheel. Even if it were “better”, it would be idiotic to change it, as we subconsciously know how cars drive.

If you’ve ever driven a car with “rocker” (Citroen) or right hand side stalk (some 80s Japanese cars), you’ll know what an utter pain in the arse it is. It takes a long time to get used to (if at all - you still make mistakes on occasion), then as soon as you drive a normal car, you’re all over the place again. There’s a reason controls are standardised, and Tesla are idiotic for messing with it.

Driving requires concentration, and doing anything to detract from that makes it less safe. The 3 isn’t niche model bought by techie enthusiasts willing to try something new (like the yoke based S and X), it’s a mass-market volume product that they presumably want ICE drivers to migrate to. Making it awkward to drive is mental.

If car reviewers (who are used to hopping from one car to another) find it awkward, I can safely say I (never mind eg my wife, parents etc) will find it an utter pain in the arse.

I never said the whole car industry would go that way. I think we fully agree, it’s a bad idea and they’ll likely reverse course when and hopefully if it impacts their sales enough.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

That’s not how things work. Modern phones didn’t get all these great apps as soon as Steve removed the buttons. It took almost 5 iterations before the concept of apps for business solutions became available to common man.! Steve didn’t wait till all of them developed the apps before removing buttons from the phones.

The screen could toggle between a numeric keypad and a qwerty layout. The removal of the need to press a numeric button multiple times to cycle through numbers and letters was an immediate and great improvement when searching for names or sending text messages. Consequently, from day one there was an easy argument for it being better.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

There is a huge difference in the road structure in Musk’s USA compared to the roundabout riddled streets of the UK. Our indicator use here must be x10 if not more. In most cases in the USA the steering wheel will be correctly orientated when simply turning left or right at a junction.

Another thought, what happens to all the Tesla hire cars where Joe Public hire a vehicle and have never seen indicator buttons before? They are going to have a steep learning curve.

I see Highlanders are starting to be delivered across Europe. Will be interesting reading some Joe Public reviews over the coming days and weeks.

I predict there will be many saying it’s fine just like many of those who have bought LHD cars in the U.K. say you soon get used to it. A combination of confirmation bias with those that bought and those who predict it being an issue not buying mean they’ve avoided the problem

 

[Pagemakers]

Musk is too stubborn to reverse anything. Wipers have been utter garbage for years because of his instance of vision only and neural learning. He hasn’t admitted defeat on that and made a working system. He could in an instant. Indicators buttons are here to stay no matter how much we moan about it. Don’t forget in the USA they have a working beta of FSD so their reliance on indicators is reducing by the day.

 

[FastLaneJB]

The screen could toggle between a numeric keypad and a qwerty layout. The removal of the need to press a numeric button multiple times to cycle through numbers and letters was an immediate and great improvement when searching for names or sending text messages. Consequently, from day one there was an easy argument for it being better.

It’s also a boon for multilingual people like my wife pretty much instantly. Can switch keyboards to align with each language. You also got the screen space back when you didn’t need the keyboard.

It was clearly always better, the only negative some really said was the lack of a tactile feel from real buttons. Turns out that wasn’t the big negative people thought or well they accept it because of all the other benefits.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I predict there will be many saying it’s fine just like many of those who have bought LHD cars in the U.K. say you soon get used to it. A combination of confirmation bias with those that bought and those who predict it being an issue not buying mean they’ve avoided the problem

On a Tesla forum? Yes but the general public that doesn’t post on car sites, I don’t think so. Obviously some will still buy the car, I still think it might put at least 10 - 20% of people off buying maybe at a minimum. That’ll be a lot of demand to lose, especially when interest rates are high and EV’s are harder to shift at the moment.

 

[MkPotato]

Almost a billion population drive with right hand stalk in south east Asia without any problems and call the European way of left hand stalks as a pain if you’ve not been to that part of the world. We get used to it and it is not hard to change unless you don’t want to change.

That’s not really the point. We (Us, Europe, US as far as my experience) have a “standard” and unless all car manufacturers in our market chose to change thing to a new one, it’s mental to mess with it. All you’re going do is unecesarily take people’s mind off driving.

 

[Adopado]

An analogous situation to the indicator stalk issue is with cars that have the horn button(s) on the steering wheel, but not placed in the middle of the steering wheel. I always felt that when I needed to press the horn in an emergency/dangerous circumstance the horn button should be where I last saw it! I specifically recall situations where I was going to press the horn but failed to make contact in time for it to be useful. I wasn't going to take my eyes off the road in a dicey situation to look for it! Pressing the horn is a fairly rare occurrence (for me) so there's not much hope of acquiring the skill through frequent usage ... I suppose to that extent the indicator buttons do at least require frequent interaction so developing familiarity will have some benefit... but that shouldn't be necessary. Essential controls should simply not change their position between uses.

 

[randompixel]

I get the reason for that though as having the horn not on the airbag could be argued is safer in a deployment situation.

 

[Pagemakers]

Never realised Ferrari have been doing no-stalk indicators for years. Google it and see what those users say about the idea!

 

[Adopado]

I get the reason for that though as having the horn not on the airbag could be argued is safer in a deployment situation.

If you've got a stalk you can have the horn button on the end of it ... like was done years ago.

 

[init6]

If you've got a stalk you can have the horn button on the end of it ... like was done years ago.

Before that you didn't even need stalks

 

[spdpsba]

Loss of buttons did not drive that, in same way that loss of indicator stalks will not drive autonomous vehicles.

You can argue anyway you want, but some visionary has to start. I had mobile phones without buttons before Steve removed it. But they were all handicapped because of the loss of buttons. The point is Model 3 is not going to be handicapped because of the loss of stalks. You may think it is but not me. You have all the rights to keep your views and I have mine. Elon may offer stalks as an option in the future but that doesn’t mean we all have to stick to the idiom of ‘if ain’t broken do not fix it’.

 

[spdpsba]

We (Us, Europe, US as far as my experience) have a “standard” and unless all car

We are the ones - the rest use it on the other side - that’s solely the point. Human beings get used to changes.

 

[Leytonstone]

Never realised Ferrari have been doing no-stalk indicators for years. Google it and see what those users say about the idea!

Right so this reinforces the point that it's a niche curiosity. Ferrari have seriously quick steering, to the point you rarely need to reposition your hands on the wheel, and the indicator buttons are separated either side of the wheel hub so that they fall naturally under left and right hands, yet a decade later people still moan about it on forums and in recent Roma reviews.

 

[spdpsba]

Never realised Ferrari have been doing no-stalk indicators for years. Google it and see what those users say about the idea!

Ferrari indicators slightly different in how they are oriented. However the older models had indicators similar to Tesla orientation.

The new ones:

The older model:
Don’t have a picture of one of those but remember Clarkson making the same comments.

 

[Leytonstone]

The company's aim is motorsport products for the road, to the point that they even deliberately limit autonomy features to L2 to 'maintain authenticity' and 'preserve emotion' blah blah. As a Ferrari owner, you might even argue that the deletion of stalks and the scattergun recreation of every ancillary function as a separate button on literally every inch of spare room on the wheel (see above) even helps make it feel special and racelike and, well, unique. Here's the thing though. Mainstream family car buyers don't want that.

Those of us old enough to remember cars like the CX will remember that Citroen found out the hard way.

 

[Pagemakers]

Here's the thing though. Mainstream family car buyers don't want that.

Reading Ferrari reviews online, nor do their drivers.

 

[Roy Batty]

Those of us old enough to remember cars like the CX will remember that Citroen found out the hard way.

The Citroen BX and CX both had indicators in a fixed position, just happened to be on the binnacle not a stalk.

Very different to indicators that move around with the steering wheel as it still allows for muscle memory to work, indicators that move don't allow for that as they're in a different position in space.

I had the BX with the binnacle indicators, worked fine.