So, why does Tesla have such a hard time painting cars?

[Stellavator]

That’s literally the entire explanation.

What does that even mean? Some right wing political ideological reason for car painting issues at Tesla? Crazy much?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

What does that even mean? Some right wing political ideological reason for car painting issues at Tesla? Crazy much?

Laws and regulation around paint and its emissions.

 

[seattlite2004]

What does that even mean? Some right wing political ideological reason for car painting issues at Tesla? Crazy much?

I'm thinking the other side...environmental, clean air, etc......which is more a left agenda then right.

 

[Gavyne]

Read this if you don't understand California's regulations on paint:

HOW WATERBORNE AUTO PAINT IS CHANGING THE RULES | Mopar Magazine

 

[TeeEmCee]

I'm guessing some of your clearly conservative, anti-california, anti-government, probably internet libertarianism is bleeding into this conversation.

You're saying that as if it's a bad thing.

The problems we are seeing, most of which have been solved already, have been down to Tesla trying to reinvent manufacturing.

Full agrement on this one.

Let me promise you, California isn't as bad as talk radio has you believe.

Yes, it is.

I presume they're attempting to rely on some AI computer vision system, but it sucks if they are. And the presumably human training system is not providing proper feedback fast enough to train the neural network to the level they need.

Then that's the problem right there. They need TWO such systems, one standing on each side of the conveyor belt as the cars roll by under neon lights. A third system on hot standby is needed for the pee breaks of the two primary systems.

several owners are reading forums like this, seeing things get blown out of proportion ...

I watched more than a dozen cars being delivered as I was waiting for mine. I looked for the known mfg issues on all of them. My car, which I love to complain about around here, was the best one of that batch. It's not blown out of proportion, certain things are just poorly done on a significant percentage of delivered vehicles.

I've seen complaining of panel gaps with a variance of between one and four millimeters.

4 mils is an absolutely huge variance when it comes to fitting doors. Allow me to point out that in my high-tech POS, the interior pressure varies with speed, i.e. at high speed the dynamic pressure at the outer end of these fine panel and window gaps leads to a drop in interior pressure (see Bernoulli law) and one can physically feel this pressure variance in the ears. I never felt this before in any car I ever bought. I'm hoping the problem will go away when they re-align my doors next week.

There are a lot of people that have never ever looked at this kind of thing, and now that they're being told to they see something that doesn't exist.

'Cause they didn't have to and yes, the quality issues do exist. Many are subtle enough but most annoying once you ecounter them.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I'm guessing some of your clearly conservative, anti-california, anti-government, probably internet libertarianism is bleeding into this conversation.

You're saying that as if it's a bad thing.

The problems we are seeing, most of which have been solved already, have been down to Tesla trying to reinvent manufacturing.

Full agrement on this one.

Let me promise you, California isn't as bad as talk radio has you believe.

Yes, it is.

I presume they're attempting to rely on some AI computer vision system, but it sucks if they are. And the presumably human training system is not providing proper feedback fast enough to train the neural network to the level they need.

Then that's the problem right there. They need TWO such systems, one standing on each side of the conveyor belt as the cars roll by under neon lights. A third system on hot standby is needed for the pee breaks of the two primary systems.

several owners are reading forums like this, seeing things get blown out of proportion ...

I watched more than a dozen cars being delivered as I was waiting for mine. I looked for the known mfg issues on all of them. My car, which I love to complain about around here, was the best one of that batch. It's not blown out of proportion, certain things are just poorly done on a significant percentage of delivered vehicles.

I've seen complaining of panel gaps with a variance of between one and four millimeters.

4 mils is an absolutely huge variance when it comes to fitting doors. Allow me to point out that in my high-tech POS, the interior pressure varies with speed, i.e. at high speed the dynamic pressure at the outer end of these fine panel and window gaps leads to a drop in interior pressure (see Bernoulli law) and one can physically feel this pressure variance in the ears. I never felt this before in any car I ever bought. I'm hoping the problem will go away when they re-align my doors next week.

There are a lot of people that have never ever looked at this kind of thing, and now that they're being told to they see something that doesn't exist.

'Cause they didn't have to and yes, the quality issues do exist. Many are subtle enough but most annoying once you ecounter them.

 

[dhanson865]

I don't know squat about painting cars, but I do know that most of the complaints about new Model 3's seem to be about the paint job or the phone key. Who can tell/speculate about why this is such a problem with Tesla's when other companies have been doing nearly flawless paint jobs for at least a couple decades?

Tesla paints cars in California. California limits the type of paint you can use more than any other state. All the other car manufacturers avoid the issue by painting cars outside California.

Every car plant that painted cars in California closed down before Tesla bought the Nummi plant in 2010.

Ford Motor Company Assembly Plant - Wikipedia stopped making Fords there in 1953.
Maywood Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Lincoln/Mercury in 1957.
Long Beach Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Fords in 1958.
Oakland Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Chevys in 1963.
Los Angeles (Maywood) Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Chryslers in 1971.
Los Angeles Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Fords in 1980.
South Gate Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Chevys in 1982.
San Jose Assembly Plant - Wikipedia stopped making Fords in 1983.
Van Nuys Assembly - Wikipedia stopped making Chevys in 1992.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TABC,_Inc. stopped making Toyota truck beds in 2004. (not sure if those were painted or just shipped raw)

and not a single car plant has been opened in California since.

Until such time as Tesla moves car manufacturing outside of California they'll always have some of the softest least durable paints in some colors.

 

[Eno Deb]

Read this if you don't understand California's regulations on paint:

HOW WATERBORNE AUTO PAINT IS CHANGING THE RULES | Mopar Magazine

German manufacturers have used waterborne paint for decades, and a few years ago the BMW plant in South Carolina was the first to use it in the US. I am not aware of any widespread issues with their cars.

I think Tesla has some problems both with their paint shop and with their QC. How else could something like this leave the factory:

New Delivery - Bad Paint Job - Opinions

 

[MXWing]

I would pay a paint price premium for the very first Tesla painted in Nevada if it was a configurator option.

Occam’s razor would tell us that a company that can produce space age, military tech should have no problems painting a frieken car.

The only counter to the above is scalability issues.

The counter to scalability limitations is to scale up or out. Or adjust the manufacturing process to reduce the defect rate - unless an external factor prevents them from doing so.

They built a tent to create another assembly line. You are a fool if you don’t think they can’t carve out a few thousand square foot to double paint production or double the time it takes to paint each vehicle.

 

[MSR]

I don't know that Tesla has more paint issues than anybody else. I do know that Tesla buyers are hyper-sensitive about this because the Internet tells them to be

If Tesla buyers are 'hyper-sensitive' about paint issues, it's because of the numerous crappy paint jobs that should have been caught before delivery by QC, but that they continue trying to deliver to customers anyway, sometimes multiple times.

We've seen many cases documented here with photos of defects that are far worse than anyone should accept on any new car, whether it's an under $20K Honda Fit or over $50K for a Red Tesla with a $2,500 paint upcharge.

And those of us who have had or seen repainted cars know that repainting a new car is not really a viable solution. In addition to the fact that a repainted vehicle has diminished value, most repaints do not hold up over the long term as well as factory paint jobs.

Perhaps Tesla would fix their paint QC problems quicker if more of us rejected deliveries of new cars with obvious paint defects.

 

[BrandonLive]

I’m a economist so a scientist of resources and production. Not one of those fake Nobel theorists but one that solves everyday problems.

So in other words... not an economist. Got
it.

Sigh, so much to pick apart but I’ll start here.
Subsidies are obviously a zero sum game with winners and losers.

That is absolutely, in no uncertain terms, completely untrue.

 

[SoCalGuy]

California has the highest manufacturing output of any state. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
2014 State Manufacturing Data Table | NAM
I really don't get all the California hate.

MXWing is just playing the part of the ill-informed OC conservative. Just hit “disagree” and ignore like I do

 

[SoCalGuy]

Obviously there is some tongue in cheek and of course California is going to manufacture SOMETHING because it’s the 5th largest GDP in the world. 50 million people.

Compare absolute advantage and comparative advantage. California is a poor place to do it in absolute terms.

I was born in California and I have never left California on a permanent basis.

Just telling it how it is. (With a little bit of exaggeration and saltiness at California’s anti business climate)

California has 40 million people - you are off by 25%. If you really are an economist (and not just playing one on TMC), I shudder to think how fast and loose you are with your quantitative data analysis.

 

[BrandonLive]

I would pay a paint price premium for the very first Tesla painted in Nevada if it was a configurator option.

Occam’s razor would tell us that a company that can produce space age, military tech should have no problems painting a frieken car.

Occam’s Razor tells us no such thing.

The counter to scalability limitations is to scale up or out. Or adjust the manufacturing process to reduce the defect rate - unless an external factor prevents them from doing so.

They built a tent to create another assembly line. You are a fool if you don’t think they can’t carve out a few thousand square foot to double paint production or double the time it takes to paint each vehicle.

I don’t think you understand much about manufacturing. The “tent” is just for final assembly. Production and sourcing of parts happens beforehand.

Doubling paint production doesn’t increase quality at all. Doubling the time it takes doesn’t necessarily increase quality, and your statement is essentially a reversal of cause and effect. Increasing quality *may* increase the time it takes.

It’s possible, even likely, that they have decided to sacrifice quality in order to reduce the latency between a car being assembled and being shipped. But don’t conflate latency/speed with bandwidth/volume. Doubling production may increase volume without affecting latency at all.

It’s also possible they simply lack (or have lacked) the skills and experience to set up and maintain a reliable and consistent painting facility. Just because they have battery and motor experts at another part of the company does not at all mean that they have equivalently expert paint specialists.

Also, it’s worth noting that other manufacturers have paint problems. My 2011 Audi S5 in Brilliant Black had a paint defect from the factory on the passenger door. It wasn’t noticeable unless you were looking for it, and I only found it after my detailer pointed it out. The dealer acknowledged it and offered to repaint it (but also recommended I consider not, and I didn’t) or a discount/refund which I took. Audi also has their Audi Exclucive paint shop closed for renovations until the middle of next year, making premium and custom colors unavailable.

Clearly, Tesla has had far more problems than Audi in this area (and seem to be worse at addressing them from many accounts). My point is just that even for the best well-established pros, it isn’t a solved problem.

 

[SoCalGuy]

So in other words... not an economist. Got
it.

I’ve found after reading numerous posts of his that his economic training (if indeed we are to believe he’s had any) is fairly superficial and probably equivalent to a high school level macro course or at best, an intro level college course. His arguments lack nuance and rest largely on cliches. Maybe that’s fine for his day job or a policy advisor gig in the current administration.

 

[KG M3]

Occam’s razor would tell us that a company that can produce space age, military tech should have no problems painting a frieken car.
. . .
They built a tent to create another assembly line. You are a fool if you don’t think they can’t carve out a few thousand square foot to double paint production or double the time it takes to paint each vehicle.

Wow. There seems to be a nearly perfect misunderstanding of what is required for a modern automotive paint facility.

The skill sets required to accurately paint about 7000 vehicle bodies per week (S, X and 3) with imperceptible color differences and zero defects have almost zero overlap with the skill sets to make space age or military hardware. The processes that have to be relentlessly optimized include the body materials selection and prep, contaminant removal, surface prep, electrostatic aerosol applications, consistent handling of a fluidized slurry (paint), maintenance of a class 100 or better clean environment for paint application, temperature and airflow control in the baking ovens and a variety of inspection methods to assure color match and minimized defects on the surface. Most automotive plants today have 10-20 year veterans working non-stop to maintain their existing processes.

The fool here is anyone who thinks that an automotive body paint shop is a few thousand square feet. Take a look at the description of the BMW Spartanburg paint shop below - 4 miles of conveyors, 100 robots and a 12 hour process. All in a few thousand square feet?

Paint Shop | BMW US Factory

Tesla Fremont has about 5 million square feet of space - a large fraction of which is devoted to the paint shop. They might build a second paint shop and line if they expand to the 9 million square foot proposed. But they certainly won't put a new paint shop in a few thousand square feet.

I get that people are frustrated by the paint issues. Tesla has to do better. But this is not a trivial issue as some are suggesting.

 

[Shizzrock]

Also, it’s worth noting that other manufacturers have paint problems. My 2011 Audi S5 in Brilliant Black had a paint defect from the factory on the passenger door. It wasn’t noticeable unless you were looking for it, and I only found it after my detailer pointed it out. The dealer acknowledged it and offered to repaint it (but also recommended I consider not, and I didn’t) or a discount/refund which I took. Audi also has their Audi Exclucive paint shop closed for renovations until the middle of next year, making premium and custom colors unavailable.

That explains why the salesguy was so weird about my Nardo Gray request. Why couldn't he just tell me this lol, instead tried to sell me a black model.

 

[Perry]

Let me promise you, California isn't as bad as talk radio has you believe.

Its worse than talk radio has you believe. I live here and I know. Living with these libs in their group think bubble is torture. If it wasn't for the good weather and jobs I would be out of here.

 

[Perry]

California they'll always have some of the softest least durable paints in some colors.

Which colors are those? Are you saying certain colors are softer than others?

 

[mike123abc]

I suspect the the issues are the result of a simple lack of expertise in car painting at Tesla. It is a weakness in some ways, but in other ways it is a strength... Tesla did not take a bunch of experts from the automotive industry to build electric cars. They instead took a bunch of software engineers and other engineers and came up with a different way of building cars. One of the main differences of Tesla is that they continuously evolve the process. A car made this week may be different from one built last week because of various changes. Traditional car markers really only change things once a year.

Unfortunately they have not resolved the paint issues all the way, but I suspect each week they fix some problems and the process keeps getting better. If you buy an early car you will suffer. Later cars will always be better. The same is happening with panel gaps, fewer and fewer issues are being reported as they work out the factory programming. Given the volume increase lately, they seem to have fixed a lot of the issues. Fewer and fewer people are complaining about it as the volume goes way up.