Solar happenings

[Reykjavik]

I think utilities should charge a flat rate for grid connectivity separate from the cost of the actual electricity, and charge it to everyone connected whether they have solar or not. Base the price of being connected on the actual cost to maintain and upgrade the grid. This would lower the per kWh cost for people who consume energy, and increase the price paid to users who produce energy. Instead of baking the cost of connection into the price per kWh, it would have it clearly separated, and charge the actual cost of the energy.

There is no need to have a fight here. Utility companies can be secure in their business model if they are prepared to offer services to people even when distributed power provides more energy than is consumed. If they stake their companies on always being energy producers, they may be toppled.

 

[JRP3]

I think utilities should charge a flat rate for grid connectivity separate from the cost of the actual electricity, and charge it to everyone connected whether they have solar or not.

They do. My bill has separate listings for electricity charges and delivery charges. Plus I pay about $20 per month even if no electricity is used, just because I'm connected to the grid.

 

[nwdiver]

The key to sustainable distributed generation is a financial incentive for self-consumption and storage coupled with a fair rate for excess exported power. That means...

- ELIMINATE NET-METERING (Looking at you 43/50 states)
- No Fees on Solar Production (Looking at you Xcel Energy in NM)
- No Fees on Installed capacity (Looking at you AZ)
- Fair rate for exports mandated by law (Looking at you TX)

 

[Reykjavik]

They do. My bill has separate listings for electricity charges and delivery charges. Plus I pay about $20 per month even if no electricity is used, just because I'm connected to the grid.

Then they should continue charging $20 per month if you install solar, and it should still be $20 per month if you produce more than you use. And if they argue that they have to charge more because you aren't paying your share for grid maintenance, you can point to the $20 per month and tell them to **** off. And by tell them to **** off, I mean get your representatives in government to regulate this in a fair way, depending on how your power company operates in relation to the government.

 

[lolachampcar]

The above are all very good suggestions for how to polish a turd.

Utilities need to see the writing on the wall. If I can do it with my small brain processing images from old eyes they most certainly should be able to.

Use their financial strength to build out solar on people's roofs and add local storage where needed. Use that same strength to drive down the cost of local storage and improve the systems that manage it. Remove the overhead of solar and we have passed the cost tipping point. Utilities have the scale to remove that overhead.

Do everyone a service by being proactive, adding value and earning the return you seek instead of seeking rent.

Sorry to be so blunt but the path is obvious.

 

[nwdiver]

The above are all very good suggestions for how to polish a turd.

Utilities need to see the writing on the wall ..... Use that same strength to drive down the cost of local storage and improve the systems that manage it. Remove the overhead of solar and we have passed the cost tipping point. Utilities have the scale to remove that overhead.

To which are you referring? I seriously doubt most utilities will be willing to "dig their own grave". Most areas still have a complete vertical monopoly where the local utility owns Generation, Transmission and Distribution. What business would willingly give that up? That's like Amazon owning UPS and the road system. At minimum Utility commissions need to break these up into separate companies. No single company should be allowed to control more than one... let alone all three.

 

[lolachampcar]

nwdiver,
I'm looking at it from the other direction. Without non-value add overhead, PV is now price competitive with the utilities in most southern states. The price incentive is there and people will start to realize this. As time progresses, the financial incentive will only increase. PV costs will decline while grid defection will drive up utility rates. This is writing on the wall.

Utilities will dig their own grave if they continue with business as usual thinking they can maintain their vertical monopoly through a PR campaign or legislation. Sure, they may have limited success given the lack of common sense and the influence of money in our political system but that will ultimately run its course.

I'm suggesting that the utilities re-invent themselves. If they can, pay for the PV on every house possible. When PV production in an area warrants, build local storage to support that area. Use the grid to do area wide off production storage, which would seem to be the most efficient method, instead of having storage prices fall to the point that home owners do it themselves and defect. Put differently, solve the problem before the home owner can solve the problem and, by doing so, add value moving forward and justify your existence.

A clear sound business mind is much better than relying on commissions to act. I have no problem with utilities jumping off in this direction. However, they need to do the job well enough and with enough foresight that they do not create a customer mutiny when the PV and storage prices fall even further.

 

[tigerade]

A nice chart from Green Tech Media
Is the SolarCity Model the Only Way to Scale Residential Solar? : Greentech Media

Solar City was by far the largest residential solar installer of 2013, performing 26% of all residential solar installations.

 

[lolachampcar]

I'm doing 10 KWHr DC owner/builder now and should be able to do it with point inverters for about $2/WHr. It would take double that to pay someone else to do it which is crazy.

Standardize racking system cad interfaces to be directly linked to approved code.
Standardize roof stand-offs such that any/all roofing companies can install them quickly and efficiently.
Now anyone can go to their local municipality and permit solar that is code compliant.
Add to that panel/inverter combinations to further ease connection and installers should be able to make a good living delivering systems at $2/WHr.

The only reason installers can extract undue return is confusion and turf protection. It is in all our interests to remove these obstacles (and then watch solar continue to fall in price and the revolution occur).

 

[DCWitt]

I'm doing 10 KWHr DC owner/builder now and should be able to do it with point inverters for about $2/WHr. It would take double that to pay someone else to do it which is crazy.

lolachampcar...I'm interested in doing a similar install at my home. Could you point me to the panels, inverters and racking that you are using? I have just begun researching products/pricing and your info would sure be useful.

Thanks!

 

[Anzir]

lolachampcar...I'm interested in doing a similar install at my home. Could you point me to the panels, inverters and racking that you are using? I have just begun researching products/pricing and your info would sure be useful.

Thanks!

+1 thanks

 

[Anzir]

Attended the local Home and Garden show this weekend. Surprisingly (to me) there were no less than 5 solar companies. Their fees ranged from 3.10-4.5 per watt. I've learned quite a bit from Lolachampcar and if my contractor can follow the detailed information he has given me, I should be able to get it done for definitely less than 3. They all said that solar water heating was a must but I've heard a few stories about roof leaks with those systems.

 

[nwdiver]

They all said that solar water heating was a must but I've heard a few stories about roof leaks with those systems.

I absolutely LOVE solar PV but I HATE solar thermal. The ROI for thermal systems is ABYSMAL. You would be FAR better off installing this...

for ~$1k (available at Lowes) and spending the $2-3k you saved vs a thermal system on more PV.

 

[RichardC]

I absolutely LOVE solar PV but I HATE solar thermal. The ROI for thermal systems is ABYSMAL. You would be FAR better off installing this...

for ~$1k (available at Lowes) and spending the $2-3k you saved vs a thermal system on more PV.

Right on. I ran the same analysis and couldn't get the solar thermal to make much sense for our climate. You get very little heat when you need it most, and lots when not much is required. I have chosen solar PV and a heat pump water heater (to use the heat from our string inverters and other waste heat sources) to achieve good efficiency. However, care needs to taken with the heat pump water heaters in cold climates or the water heater will simply be stealing heat from the central heating system.

 

[nwdiver]

Right on. I ran the same analysis and couldn't get the solar thermal to make much sense for our climate...... However, care needs to taken with the heat pump water heaters in cold climates or the water heater will simply be stealing heat from the central heating system.

Yeah... thermal systems make almost ZERO financial sense for residential systems. You're almost always better off with a heat pump.... It's actually a little troubling that installers push these systems at all since the math is so lopsided. A friend of mine bought one for $7k... $7K! That borders on outright fraud! They made sense 5 years ago when PV was ~$6/watt and heat pump hot water heaters were $3k... those days are gone. They do make sense for some commercial applications... and maybe for heating pools.

 

[Norbert]

They do. My bill has separate listings for electricity charges and delivery charges. Plus I pay about $20 per month even if no electricity is used, just because I'm connected to the grid.

Perhaps wherever delivery charges are rolled into the electricity charges, the reason, or part of the reason, is to increase the incentive to save on electricity usage. Regarding solar, it simply results in an additional incentive for a larger solar array. What's wrong with that?

The utilities may then argue: but who pays for the grid when everyone is using solar? First of all, that would be a great problem to have, and secondly, a simple minimum fee would solve the problem.

 

[lolachampcar]

I replaced all our electric water heaters with point of use on demand gas water heaters. I knocked roughly $100 off our total energy bill (range and cloths dryer went to gas as well). Gas stays on after a hurricane which is also helpful for me.

 

[JRP3]

I absolutely LOVE solar PV but I HATE solar thermal. The ROI for thermal systems is ABYSMAL. You would be FAR better off installing this...

for ~$1k (available at Lowes) and spending the $2-3k you saved vs a thermal system on more PV.

How well would that work in an unheated basement? Mine was below 40F on some cold days this winter. (Yes I need to do some insulating).

 

[RichardC]

How well would that work in an unheated basement? Mine was below 40F on some cold days this winter. (Yes I need to do some insulating).

Not great. Our setup is designed so that our solar power inverters, central vac, air compressors, dryer, range hood and washroom vents dump all of their heat and moisture in a separate room where the heat pump water heater is able to extract some of the heat from the air and latent heat of evaporation and then a high efficiency air exchanger recovers much of the remaining heat and energy from moisture and provides fresh air into the return air duct. It sounds as though some insulation would make sense for your basement, and even then the heat pump will likely only make sense during warmer months when you are not merely recycling the heat from your funace into the hot water. (The heat pump merely moves the heat from the air into the water and is consequently less helpful in the northern climes, unless you have access to some waste heat and moisture in the winter.)

 

[JRP3]

I've often considered moving my water heater up to the peak of my upstairs loft, which is always warm. Of course I'd need to build in some major spill containment in case of a leak :scared: I've also thought about running some ducting from the loft to the basement so I could pull hot air down there in the winter, and with a reversible fan to pull cool basement air up in the summer.