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From what I gather the market is taking care of renewables storage in Germany.

Solar skyrocketed over the last three years and took away the entire profit base of the traditional utilities.
They make up for that loss the only way they can......by raising rates.
Solar is so cheap and the feed-in-tariff so low that now it's advantageous to store solar rather than pay the grid for half your juice.

This will probably happen here too as natural gas becomes less plentiful in 10-15 years.
 
From what I gather the market is taking care of renewables storage in Germany.

Solar skyrocketed over the last three years and took away the entire profit base of the traditional utilities.
They make up for that loss the only way they can......by raising rates.
Solar is so cheap and the feed-in-tariff so low that now it's advantageous to store solar rather than pay the grid for half your juice.

This will probably happen here too as natural gas becomes less plentiful in 10-15 years.

Agreed... I think we'll use natural gas but only as a "stand-by" source. If we get serious about energy independence I think we can be in a position where we just fire up a turbine for a few hours a night in ~20 years. Hydro, pumped storage and wind will help too. In 30 years we could probably be in a position where those turbines could sit idle for months or years.

LFTRs are still a nuclear plant with cheaper more abundant fuel... Solar is already so cheap that even if you had a magic hot rock you STILL would have a hard time competing with solar since you have to turn that heat into electricity and steam turbines aren't cheap.

Going from cold steel to full power takes ~5 minutes with a gas turbine. Cold steel to full power with a thermal plant takes ~12 hours. ANY type of thermal plant IS NOT a good fit in a world where >50% of electricity comes from renewables.
 
Well,
This is kind of par for the course for me... Just one day after I laid out the energy future of the country to get to 100% renewable power, I see that Forbes has figured out that solar will *never* replace coal:
Solar Power Is Booming, But Will Never Replace Coal. Here's Why. - Forbes

Can't wait to dig into this, but "never" is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking it has to be one of the following:
1. There is an infinite supply of coal available, even given the seemingly finite nature of the planet
2. Maybe he presumes we will extinct ourselves, thereby not needing to tap the "infinite" coal reserves
3. Perhaps our path to extinction will be via the burning of the inexhaustible coal supply. So even the arctic circle will resemble Beijing on a summer day...

I'm betting he is counting on #3.

RT
 
Well,
This is kind of par for the course for me... Just one day after I laid out the energy future of the country to get to 100% renewable power, I see that Forbes has figured out that solar will *never* replace coal:
Solar Power Is Booming, But Will Never Replace Coal. Here's Why. - Forbes

Can't wait to dig into this, but "never" is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking it has to be one of the following:
1. There is an infinite supply of coal available, even given the seemingly finite nature of the planet
2. Maybe he presumes we will extinct ourselves, thereby not needing to tap the "infinite" coal reserves
3. Perhaps our path to extinction will be via the burning of the inexhaustible coal supply. So even the arctic circle will resemble Beijing on a summer day...

I'm betting he is counting on #3.

RT

He also mentions the "shortage" of natural gas in the northeast, which was really related to pipeline capacity, being the first severe winter after expansion of use. (It's becoming available in our area and I'm hoping to go natural gas for heat this year, replacing heating oil.)

As the article notes, solar (and wind) generally substitute for natural gas consumption, so rising natural gas prices will also push renewables since the NG capacity itself is very cheap so there can be installation of NG+PV without raising price excessively. Also, natural gas price increases would generally lead to additional fossil production and more biogas, which should tend to put something of a cap on pricing.

The real wildcard, which the article should have focused more on, is the effect of NG exports.
 
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Lots of good points. To go completely renewable with no baseload (coal, nuclear, natural gas) would require massive storage like JRP mentioned. And unless you want to make EVERY end point power user be able to both generate and store all the power they would ever need, there will have to be at a minimum a local massive storage facility or a local/regional baseload power supplier with some kind of grid connections still in place.

The way I think things might play out, would be as follows. Obviously wind and solar are getting installed at ever increasing rates.
The wind is falling out of wind's sails in the US. "Wind capacity additions (1,032 MW) dropped sharply in 2013 to less than one-tenth of the capacity added in 2012.". And while solar was up sharply, continuing the growth trend, just more than 50% of new utility-scale generation burns natural gas. (This doesn't account for small-scale PV, which was also big.) What changed with wind? The big issue was the end of investment tax credits, but also (a) the best sites are used or have over-crowded transmission and (b) increasing public resistance to more on-shore wind.

This cuts into the baseload power suppliers revenue, and also makes it tougher for the maintaining of the grid. Someone from England suggested that the running of the grid be separated from the generation of the power. I guess that was done there. That seems to me like a good idea. The grid would be nationalized, and run for the benefit of all connected to it. Then the power companies can compete against each other concerning who can supply power when and at what cost. They would also be competing against the individual homes that supply power via their solar panels. This would be a major change, no doubt.
What you describe is almost exactly what we have in much of the United States: from Maine to Maryland to Ohio, and Texas. The grid is owned and maintained by transmission companies that own no generation, and the grid is controlled by Regional Transmission Operators that are independent and accountable only to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. California and the Midwest also have RTOs, but they lack the full separation of transmission from generation. You'll notice all the fighting about roof-top solar has been in areas that still have the old vertically-integrated utility model.

From strictly a "lets emit as little CO2 as possible" point of view, I think something like this might happen: solar and wind keep ramping up, lessening the need for baseload power. Especially once personal or regional energy storage come into play over time as costs for that decrease. As less baseload power is required, they could start turning off the more polluting plants first (i.e. coal). Any specific plant wouldn't be shut down until the surrounding community that uses it's power can reliably get all required power from other sources or stored power from renewables.
You are implicitly assuming a carbon tax, which I agree with but will be very controversial to implement. The current rule used by RTOs for dispatch is "least cost," so units with the lowest offer price are dispatched first. What *is* hitting coal units, even under this system and without carbon pricing (or with low carbon pricing in RGGI states) is how inflexible they are: typically these units need 16+ hours to start up, so once you fire them up, you leave them on-line. When prices fall low, these coal plants can ramp down to ~30% of their maximum output, but they're still losing money (cost > market price). When supplemental power is only needed in a few hours, these coal plants will likely shut down for economics.
Since baseload will still be required for a long time, the choice would be nuclear. One problem I could see doing this would be that should renewable and storage come down so fast that everyone is doing it, you could end up with a very expensive nuclear plant that runs for 10 years and then can't compete with the renewable/storage suppliers. Who then eats the cost if the plant is no longer economically feasible?
The only new nukes being built are by vertically integrated utilities (in the US, Southern Company). Their ratepayers will continue to pay these costs until the whole cost is recovered (with interest). For example, Long Islanders are still paying charges related to the abandoned Shoreham nuke, even though it never generated one kWh.

Sunshine is the most diffuse of all sources of renewable power. The energy density of wind is far higher, and moving water (ocean wave, tidal, etc.) higher still. These other "fuels" have the advantage, too, of being more predictable and higher availability than solar. So, while I certainly see an important role for solar in the future, any 100% renewable scenario will almost surely have a mix of solar, wind, biomass, and marine. Having this diversity of generation sources will reduce (but not eliminate) the need for storage.

The cheapest form of storage is hydro--which is a component of nearly every region's power supply. The challenge is integrating the dispatch of hydro with the need to balance renewables, while at the same time respecting the water-release requirements to keep riverine environments healthy.
 
Well, we got to 6% solar in California yesterday :smile:. I'm guessing that September we may hit 10% for the first time:
Yesterday was even better than that at 6.4% of total demand. Of course, peak generation at 14:17 yesterday was around 4.4GW, or about 16% of total demand at the time. When we get to 10% total generation we'll probably be peaking at 25%+ total generation. Need to add a couple more kW of PV to my roof to help hit those targets. :)
 
A "must read" article in the NYT revealing why the restrictions/taxes on solar are so quickly gaining traction. In two words: Koch brothers.

Log In - The New York Times

Thanks for the link. So essentially, the Koch Brothers are destroying their industry without even knowing it.
They particularly dislike state laws that allow homeowners with solar panels to sell power they don’t need back to electric utilities. So they’ve been pushing legislatures to impose a surtax on this increasingly popular practice, hoping to make installing solar panels on houses less attractive.

From this quote, by the time 2017 hits and solar is cheaper to install than regular utility rates even without or 10% the tax incentive, they are creating that "death spiral" that we have been talking about.
 
Anytime someone offers an answer of "George Soros" or "Koch Brothers" to the reason that some action is taken, I have to immediately write off the conversation summarily, like when Krugman tries to play an economist. Perhaps they act as amplifliers but underneath there is a reason for the actions.

That's why I covered the fixed vs. variable cost case that my co-op works with -- right now, the cost structures of electricity service probably aren't structured correctly and there is some level of subsidy given. We're now reaching the level where we have enough of a critical mass that the subsidy is noticeable to the majority, and so "the empire strikes back" is something we should try to understand rather than just rally against. I understand the concern, and I would much rather work to establish fairness than just fight it and be run over.
 
> The cheapest form of storage is hydro [Robert.Boston]

But this is not 'storage' in the same sense that everyone is lusting after, i.e. night balancing solar. Unless you mean hydro plants also have pumped storage capability, or that they shut down/throttle back until renewables output drops periodically?
--
 
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When you speak of fairness, it all comes down to two things (WRT solar).

(1)
Utilities are getting sun up generation for average costs in places like Florida.

(2)
Homeowners are getting a "free" battery for 24 hour cycle usage.

Utilities should pay the correct price for the power they get from PV homes including the concept that the power is provided locally so there is a grid component to its value.
Home owners should be charged for the battery function that net metering provides.

What will become of this is simple. Homeowners will reach a point where industrious companies can provide local storage for less than the utilities charge for their "battery" service. Homeowners will then retain the power they generate and utilities will be left to maintain their grid with fewer customers. This will drive more of those customers to solar which will accelerate the process.

I do not intend for this to sound condescending in any way but the results of this "fairness" approach are the obvious death of the utility and the most inefficient form of PV plus storage.
 
all the other variables are creations by one group or another. The points I list are the two transactions of value that are actually taking place. You can cover these up with Fud for a while but it still comes down to these two basic items of value.

I disagree on those two points, in my area at least. Here people don't get paid on any power they generate, the meter does roll backwards however. Any excess you produce is free power for the power co, most of that during peak periods. I reduce their costs to operate during the day, and they are selling my power to others. In exchange, I get power at night, keeping their average load up. I don't see how this isn't a net win for my power company.
 
I disagree on those two points, in my area at least. Here people don't get paid on any power they generate, the meter does roll backwards however. Any excess you produce is free power for the power co, most of that during peak periods. I reduce their costs to operate during the day, and they are selling my power to others. In exchange, I get power at night, keeping their average load up. I don't see how this isn't a net win for my power company.

That's basically the same situation here. Net metering credit (if negative) can only be held for up to a quarter, and you won't receive any checks in the mail. I consume far more than I produce (to the tune of thousands of kWh/month even with a 9 kW plant), so it's not an issue for me - although between 1-2 pm I can usually spot the meter spinning backwards, slowly.

The issue I spoke of earlier in the thread comes into play - if part of the fixed cost of connecting you to the grid is recovered by the utility in their usage charges, then when you reduce your usage charges by using net metering, you're effectively pushing more of the fixed cost of your grid interconnection onto other customers that don't have PV systems.
 
That's basically the same situation here. Net metering credit (if negative) can only be held for up to a quarter, and you won't receive any checks in the mail. I consume far more than I produce (to the tune of thousands of kWh/month even with a 9 kW plant), so it's not an issue for me - although between 1-2 pm I can usually spot the meter spinning backwards, slowly.

The issue I spoke of earlier in the thread comes into play - if part of the fixed cost of connecting you to the grid is recovered by the utility in their usage charges, then when you reduce your usage charges by using net metering, you're effectively pushing more of the fixed cost of your grid interconnection onto other customers that don't have PV systems.

But wouldn't the electric company selling my power at peak make up for the reduction in my usage? In your case maybe not, but on a system closer to neutral over the 3 month time?
 
But wouldn't the electric company selling my power at peak make up for the reduction in my usage? In your case maybe not, but on a system closer to neutral over the 3 month time?
I don't know how it works where you are, but when PG&E calculates my bill, I get full tariff (retail) credit for the energy that I push into the grid at MY rate schedule price. The neighbor that actually uses that power may be on a different rate schedule where they do not have time-of-use charge, thereby paying less for the energy than the utility credited me for. It is compounded by the fact that I charge my car at night and pay an even lower price for the energy that I take back from the grid. They set the rules, I'm just playing the game...