Solar Roof, big price increase

[jimm01]

Musk said it himself, “significant mistakes” were made. So this is all on Tesla. The rest is just my opinion.

Did Tesla violated some state statutes? Possibly. Will they have to pay up? One has to file a suit and take their chances, (it’s probably 50/50). If Tesla loose is one entitled to damages? Yes, it’s up to the court and what one can document. Are the penalties stiff? They can be. What about the arbitration clause? File a suit then ask the court to repudiate the clause. Will Tesla be forced to install a solar roof as per original agreement? My guess is no. The best thing is to file complaints with state authorities and the FTC. However, if actual damages occured, beyond the $100, consult an attorney whose litigated construction law claims.

Frankly, I would like to see Tesla Energy investigated. I think what would be reveled is high expectations and reporting due to internal pressure and gross incompetence. The “mistakes” Tesla made due to complexity are the result of the same underlying complexities any installer faces installing any roofing material. The complexities here are the result of the product itself, which is what Tesla has been refining over the past 5 years and three versions of the solar roof. Now it seems Tesla is installing more steel to simplify the install, so version 4, (and charging more for it). Calling this a mistake is like calling getting the wrong leg amputated merely a mistake. No this is a complete breakdown and a total misrepresentation of what product was first represented to be. Totally integrated? Now more like a Rube Goldberg cartoon. Somebody’s guilty of something, if not utter stupidity then an outright liar.

 

[FurryOne]

Pretty big assumptions for a fully grown adult there. What makes you think folks on this forum are acting "entitled" because they filled an online form and put a $100 deposit and did "zero work"? This is not a preorder for some gimmick on kickstarter that didn't pan out.

Because they are. Anyone that just put down the $100 and demands Tesla honor a loosing proposition is acting entitled.

If you care to read the whole thread, you'd know folks are in the middle of construction, some have taken loans to install this product. So, yes: there are people who have invested $$, because a fully enforceable contract was signed between two parties.

I've been here the whole thread - I've been around this before this thread - I had $8K on the line after signing up for a solar roof only to find out that Tesla had no installers in my area, so yeah, big deal. I realized the situation and moved on.

Something to consider: "moving on" is exactly what Tesla wants i.e. letting a big corporation unilaterally change the terms of contract and walk all over you. If you have a spine, you'd stand up for yourself and others, not cower down under the pretext of "dealing with it" and "moving on".

That sounds like the mantra of the "ME" generation. You only see your side, which is why America is in such a sorry state right now. If the price increase was just "because we can" then yes, get angry about it. But the price increase was because Tesla's solar roof division was going down the crapper due to bad pricing. There's "standing up for yourself" and there's "understanding". I understood Tesla's situation and reasoned that the best thing to do was to pivot to panels. If Tesla had been able to schedule a solar roof for me I would have weighed the benefits and made a choice depending on the change in cost.

 

[DoodleX]

it seems there may have been unrealistic expectations on both sides not realizing how long construction may take, etc. and newbies on both sides

Yes, I can see that happening. But that in itself doesn't de-legitimize the concerns of others who did their due-diligence before getting into this.

 

[K1Special]

it seems there may have been unrealistic expectations on both sides not realizing how long construction may take, etc. and newbies on both sides

What unrealistic expectation? That a multi billion dollar company, one of the most valuable and cash rich in the world and owned by the third richest man in the world, wouldn't burn a bunch of loyal middle class customers by breaking a legally binding contract? The expectation that a company of the caliber and brand value of Tesla wouldnt be violating a variety of professional and civil laws/rules/codes in mass. The expectation that one of the highest IQ and most data driven companies on Earth would have known how to price their products after three iterations and 5 years of development and growing pains?

I cut down trees and changed my house's entire color scheme to match a black roof. Now my house sticks our like a sore thumb in this neghborhood.

 

[h2ofun]

What unrealistic expectation? That a multi billion dollar company, one of the most valuable and cash rich in the world and owned by the third richest man in the world, wouldn't burn a bunch of loyal middle class customers by breaking a legally binding contract? The expectation that a company of the caliber and brand value of Tesla wouldnt be violating a variety of professional and civil laws/rules/codes in mass. The expectation that one of the highest IQ and most data driven companies on Earth would have known how to price their products after three iterations and 5 years of development and growing pains?

I cut down trees and changed my house's entire color scheme to match a black roof. Now my house sticks our like a sore thumb in this neghborhood.

Better than being a ghost. You are now unique.

 

[DoodleX]

Because they are. Anyone that just put down the $100 and demands Tesla honor a loosing proposition is acting entitled.

I am speaking about the people who have done much more than the $100 deposit. And it's high time to start treating Tesla like the big corporation that it is, and not a startup, as much as they would like their engineering side to operate like that. And the larger point, being that, as a business they may have made mistakes and now want to increase pricing: that is completely fair for them to do. But, by law, they cannot weasel out of already signed contracts.

I've been here the whole thread - I've been around this before this thread - I had $8K on the line after signing up for a solar roof only to find out that Tesla had no installers in my area, so yeah, big deal. I realized the situation and moved on.

Glad to read that. That looks like a pragmatic decision. I was merely pointing out there are others for whom this situation didn't play out as well as it did for you.

That sounds like the mantra of the "ME" generation. You only see your side, which is why America is in such a sorry state right now. If the price increase was just "because we can" then yes, get angry about it. But the price increase was because Tesla's solar roof division was going down the crapper due to bad pricing. There's "standing up for yourself" and there's "understanding". I understood Tesla's situation and reasoned that the best thing to do was to pivot to panels. If Tesla had been able to schedule a solar roof for me I would have weighed the benefits and made a choice depending on the change in cost.

Understanding? Sorry state of America? So you'd rather have corporations continue screwing us over *as they have* like the "good old days"?. A consumer standing up for themselves is not "ME" generation. It's a consumer who is aware of their rights. You would want that if there has to be some change. "Moving on" and "understanding" would be saying "Bad boy! Don't do it next time" and expecting a different result.

Moreover, Tesla's dubious pricing squeezed other companies out of the equation and no choice for the consumer. Does that sound like "ME" generation complaining or more about holding these companies accountable.

Stop treating Tesla and other tech darlings like children. Yes, they work on some amazing technology, but they don't get to wash their hands off their responsibility to the consumer. Again, they are not a kickstarter gimmick. I am an early adopter of their products, and I love that they are pushing the boundaries, but I'm not going to sit by idly because the business/legal side of their company didn't see this coming and have the balls to tell Elon to not risk screwing loyal customers.

What unrealistic expectation? That a multi billion dollar company, one of the most valuable in the world and owned by the third richest man in the world, wouldn't burn a bunch of loyal middle class customers by breaking a legally binding contract? The expectation that one of the highest IQ and most data driven companies on Earth would have known how to price their products after three iterations and 5 years of development and growing pains?

This. 100%

 

[jimm01]

I cut down trees and changed my house's entire color scheme to match a black roof. Now my house sticks our like a sore thumb in this neighborhood.

So the question is: Is it the product or Tesla that was not ready?

Having experienced an install it’s Tesla. What I witnessed was someone learning by doing (that’s just being polite). So I could assume one of at least two things (there are variations on a theme).

1) Tesla did not do enough prototype installs and rolled out the product to fast, or

1) Tesla did what the felt was enough prototype installs and just figured we’ll get better at it as we practice on people’s place if residence.

In either case shame on them.

To rollout a new product and not know the basics of the business you're entering in is reckless. One has to approach it as a roof first, not a solar energy system. After all, as Musk admitted, this where the complexities are. If so these were complexities hidden in plain sight.

 

[DoodleX]

@jimm01 Exactly. These complexities didn't develop overnight. This must have been an internal discussion for more than a year, while they kept signing contracts and doing permits with customers. There must have been a point where their head of business operations would have brought this up as a concern and asked for early mitigation and figure out a strategy to handle that. Or my other theory: Nobody dared say anything because "Elon wants it done" till *sugar* hit the fan!

So, Tesla does not get to say, "Sorry, there were complexities, we can't lose money now" -- at least not on the already signed contracts.

 

[jimm01]

@jimm01 Exactly. These complexities didn't develop overnight. This must have been an internal discussion for more than a year, while they kept signing contracts and doing permits with customers. There must have been a point where their head of business operations would have brought this up as a concern and asked for early mitigation and figure out a strategy to handle that. Or my other theory: Nobody dared say anything because "Elon wants it done" till *sugar* hit the fan!

So, Tesla does not get to say, "Sorry, there were complexities, we can't lose money now" -- at least not on the already signed contracts.

The problem is Tesla doesn't not know a damn thing about estimating and installing a roof. That is more than telling and if I were to sue that's were I would focus.

 

[FurryOne]

I cut down trees and changed my house's entire color scheme to match a black roof. Now my house sticks our like a sore thumb in this neghborhood.

The old saying goes "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched." I have a tree that will shade my system, but I won't let a contract until my panels are installed. That's just plain common sense.

 

[DoodleX]

The old saying goes "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched." I have a tree that will shade my system, but I won't let a contract until my panels are installed. That's just plain common sense.

That's not how projects work in the real world. Everything cannot be bottlenecked on finishing the install of your solar roof/panels. There are probably 4-5 sub-contractors to do different things and that work needs to be scheduled. Especially in a pandemic world where lead times are 12-16 weeks out. And it's perfectly common sense to schedule other work *in parallel* once you have secured a commitment (read legally enforceable contract). Not to mention, Tesla themselves ask you to specifically prepare for installation after the design approval stage. This might involve getting your main electrical line upgraded, getting rid of some trees, replacing existing skylights etc. etc.

 

[DoodleX]

The problem is Tesla doesn't not know a damn thing about estimating and installing a roof. That is more than telling and if I were to sue that's were I would focus.

I agree. I think the focus should be the customer cannot pay for Tesla's mistakes, which are neither a function of the installation location or an unforeseen circumstance.

They must have known internally, that they messed up for some time while still signing new contracts.

 

[FurryOne]

I am speaking about the people who have done much more than the $100 deposit.

And who told them to spend that extra money? Did Tesla say "You need this and this before we'll do anything?" Probably not.

And it's high time to start treating Tesla like the big corporation that it is, and not a startup, as much as they would like their engineering side to operate like that.

Tesla Energy IS a startup compared to the rest of the Company.

And the larger point, being that, as a business they may have made mistakes and now want to increase pricing: that is completely fair for them to do. But, by law, they cannot weasel out of already signed contracts.

Unless they have a built-in clause, which they did.

Understanding? Sorry state of America? So you'd rather have corporations continue screwing us over *as they have* like the "good old days"?. A consumer standing up for themselves is not "ME" generation. It's a consumer who is aware of their rights. You would want that if there has to be some change. "Moving on" and "understanding" would be saying "Bad boy! Don't do it next time" and expecting a different result.

This isn't a case of Tesla just screwing people over. If they did they wouldn't be offering an out and offering compensation.

Moreover, Tesla's dubious pricing squeezed other companies out of the equation and no choice for the consumer. Does that sound like "ME" generation complaining or more about holding these companies accountable.

Seriously? What other Companies had an equivalent product? I've looked at the other stuff out there, and it was pretty pathetic, like GAF's supposed solar roof.

Stop treating Tesla and other tech darlings like children. Yes, they work on some amazing technology, but they don't get to wash their hands off their responsibility to the consumer. Again, they are not a kickstarter gimmick. I am an early adopter of their products, and I love that they are pushing the boundaries, but I'm not going to sit by idly because the business/legal side of their company didn't see this coming and have the balls to tell Elon to not risk screwing loyal customers.

Until 3 years ago Tesla might have gone down the drain, so yeah, Tesla is still a child compared to other Companies. And just like other Companies they make mistakes in running too fast. They've offered many people a free PowerWall that's $16K if they go ahead - try to get a $200 freebie from GM when they screw up something.

 

[FurryOne]

That's not how projects work in the real world. Everything cannot be bottlenecked on finishing the install of your solar roof/panels. There are probably 4-5 sub-contractors to do different things and that work needs to be scheduled. Especially in a pandemic world where lead times are 12-16 weeks out. And it's perfectly common sense to schedule other work *in parallel* once you have secured a commitment (read legally enforceable contract). Not to mention, Tesla themselves ask you to specifically prepare for installation after the design approval stage. This might involve getting your main electrical line upgraded, getting rid of some trees, replacing existing skylights etc. etc.

If your Service Entrance needs upgrading, then it needed upgrading anyways. Same with skylights. Landscaping is a personal preference type of thing. Tesla may be responsible for compensation on a Service Entrance upgrade if it's stated in the requirements, but skylights are a bit iffy, and landscaping - meh.

 

[cali8484]

They must have known internally, that they messed up for some time while still signing new contracts.

Of course they knew. That reminds of an old saying from sales "don't confuse sales with delivery ... just get the order"

It seems Tesla's mistake really started with the acquisition of SolarCity which always had a bad reputation.

 

[DoodleX]

And who told them to spend that extra money? Did Tesla say "You need this and this before we'll do anything?" Probably not.

Yes, they did. That's the preparation I am talking about. Main electrical line, skylight replacements etc. In case of partial remodel and extensions, they asked that you install temporary plywood decking on a new roof areas, before they even come onsite. Once they do go ahead with install, they will rip that out and install their own decking and underlayment. I am not questioning the validity of those requirements, but the fact is that they asked customers to do this. And the customers did so, because they had the promise of a signed contract.

Tesla Energy IS a startup compared to the rest of the Company.

This is like saying "Google X" is a startup inside Alphabet.

Unless they have a built-in clause, which they did.

Have you read the agreement? Their contract specifically states:

Read "unforeseen circumstances at the installation location". There is no case here for an unforeseen circumstance, since the customer hasn't changed anything about the location. It would be valid for Tesla to use that if they discover a completely damaged roof at the installation location, that is not the case here. Also, doesn't help that Elon admitted they made "significant mistakes" in the pricing. They cannot force the customers to absorb that, especially those who have signed contracts with this phrasing.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I have this vetted this reading of the phrasing with multiple folks in that profession.

This isn't a case of Tesla just screwing people over. If they did they wouldn't be offering an out and offering compensation.

It is not just screwing people over, it's forcing your customers to pay for your mistakes, however you characterize them. Elon said "teething pains", yeah, ok. Pay for it.

Seriously? What other Companies had an equivalent product? I've looked at the other stuff out there, and it was pretty pathetic, like GAF's supposed solar roof.

I forget the name. Someone on this forum had linked to that article. I'll paste it as soon as I find it again. This is not an argument that Tesla's product isn't compelling. It is, and that's why folks chose it. The problem is the pricing they promised, made it a sweet deal, and killed any other company from attempting this (or a version of it). Tesla then drags those customers through delays, and now says "Oops! my pricing was wrong, here you go"

Until 3 years ago Tesla might have gone down the drain, so yeah, Tesla is still a child compared to other Companies. And just like other Companies they make mistakes in running too fast. They've offered many people a free PowerWall that's $16K if they go ahead - try to get a $200 freebie from GM when they screw up something.

Ok, so they made a mistake, now fix it. System prices went up by 50% in some cases, throwing in a 8k powerwall ain't going to cut it. Yes, it's not 16k. And that's not the type of additional money customers may have ready at this point. So, that's not an offer.

 

[DoodleX]

Of course they knew. That reminds of an old saying from sales "don't confuse sales with delivery ... just get the order"

It seems Tesla's mistake really started with the acquisition of SolarCity which always had a bad reputation.

Yup exactly!

 

[DoodleX]

If your Service Entrance needs upgrading, then it needed upgrading anyways. Same with skylights. Landscaping is a personal preference type of thing. Tesla may be responsible for compensation on a Service Entrance upgrade if it's stated in the requirements, but skylights are a bit iffy, and landscaping - meh.

Not that simple. Tesla specified:
1. What type of skylights (curb mount VS deck mount), specific curb heights to adhere to.
2. Gutter systems compatibility. Don't use Copper gutters

So, let's make our assertions based on facts.

 

[DoodleX]

go ahead - try to get a $200 freebie from GM when they screw up something.

Let's not justify and try to rationalize one company's bad behavior by quoting another company's worse behavior.

 

[Dmahone]

Much as I would like to cause Tesla Solar Roof to spend a lot on lawyers trying to defend their arbitrary and capricious behavior (huge sudden increases to the prices of signed contracts), I have concluded that they cannot offer me any remedy that I would want (other than punitive damages).”

I am an architect, and I have never encountered a more incompetent contracting organization. I have been trying to purchase a Solar Roof for nearly two years now, and have encountered incompetent site surveys, errors in system sizing, arbitrary unwanted extras, numerous incommunicado sales reps, and arrogant take-it-or-leave it contract changes, to mention just a few of their screwups.

Even if Tesla did a sudden about face, and agreed to honor our signed contract, I would then become even more reliant on Tesla to correctly alter my house, properly install my system, and honor its warranty if things didn’t work right.

Based on my two years’ working with Tesla, there’s no reason to expect any of this would go better. I refuse to do any further business with the Tesla Solar Roof, and will discourage anybody who’s interested from dealing with this product. It is not worth the time, money, aggravation or risk.

I expect that this is exactly what Tesla wants me (along with hundreds of other Solar Roof customers who have gotten the same treatment) to do. They will save some money by walking away from their contracts, but they are also driving away many of their most loyal and enthusiastic early adopter customers. I, for one, will not be back.

If you would like more details of Tesla Solar Roof incompetence, see my other posts in this forum.