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It would be easier to install PV in non-optimal locations (partially shaded, other side of roof etc.) than constant battery transport, probably. You have a link to this flexiwatt thing??


Flexiwatt

5 things utilities need to know about “flexiwattsâ€￾ | Intelligent Utility

"...demand flexibility cost-effectively increased on-site solar PV self-consumption from 50–60% to 90+% under rates that did not compensate exported solar using net energy metering."
 
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EIA data also shows California lost over 14.2 Terrawatt hours due to t&d loss in 2013. If you look over the past decade, they've lost close to that on average per year. At .20c/kWh for retail, that over $2.85bln per year, $28.5bln over the past decade. Added cost shift onto ratepayers, in my opinion.

Winfield, have you ever researched how much money is spent on oil spills, failed nuclear plant closures, nat gas pipeline explosions, coal ash dumping violations, rail car derailment spills? how much has this has been cost shifted on ratepayers in higher rates? I imagine insurance rates for utitlies also go up or are higher because of such disasters... I wonder how many cents/kWh of cost avoidance DG solar installs create for utilities in this respect?

Also, how much avoided cost DERs have on power outages? Just over the past month, NV Energy has had numerous power outages, that have cost 10's of millions of not more...


if if we all recall the YouTube video of a Solarcity + tesla storage in operation during a power outage in the Bay Area... I wonder that what that stability in mass woul look like on the utitlity of this were to happen in the future again?
Foghat, I have been a PV enthusiast since I first read about the Douglas-Martin Sunscreens in "the roads must roll", probably before you were a gleam in your parents eyes. I have had a (tiny) PV array since 1999. BTW, US used around 4,500 terawatt hours per year a few years ago (electricity). If you took $3 Trillion (a famikiar number to some of us) you could install between 75 and 100 million, 10kW PV arrays, fully paid for and make ~70 trillion watt hours/year (and it would take a while to make and install the panels)(we have also pumped over 66 cubic miles of oil since 1965 planetary wide)(and spilled a lot too). If you havent read them, read the 2 papers, the economics of grid defection and the economics of load defection and get the excel spreadsheet from BP "bp-statistical review of world energy 2015..)

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failed nuclear plant closures,
if you do a casual back of envelop cost analysis of a nuke plant. 9.6 years from permit to completion, 40 year life span, cost of fuel and operators is vaguely $20-26 Billion before decomission and "what the heck do we do with the waste?" for a 1.2gw plant (RMI guestimates) vs same time span for PV @5.5hr/s/day generation. cost is not that too much different and you dont have them flood (rivers), run out of cooling water (TVA) and Florida where cooling water is over 100 degrees. Is this what you were asking?

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It would be easier to install PV in non-optimal locations (partially shaded, other side of roof etc.) than constant battery transport, probably. You have a link to this flexiwatt thing??
look at the Germans Solar Decathlon winning house. 5 of the 6 sides were almost completely covered in PV (4 sides and roof, including louvers on the windoes)
 
Foghat, I have been a PV enthusiast since I first read about the Douglas-Martin Sunscreens in "the roads must roll", probably before you were a gleam in your parents eyes. I have had a (tiny) PV array since 1999. BTW, US used around 4,500 terawatt hours per year a few years ago (electricity). If you took $3 Trillion (a famikiar number to some of us) you could install between 75 and 100 million, 10kW PV arrays, fully paid for and make ~70 trillion watt hours/year (and it would take a while to make and install the panels)(we have also pumped over 66 cubic miles of oil since 1965 planetary wide)(and spilled a lot too). If you havent read them, read the 2 papers, the economics of grid defection and the economics of load defection and get the excel spreadsheet from BP "bp-statistical review of world energy 2015..)

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if you do a casual back of envelop cost analysis of a nuke plant. 9.6 years from permit to completion, 40 year life span, cost of fuel and operators is vaguely $20-26 Billion before decomission and "what the heck do we do with the waste?" for a 1.2gw plant (RMI guestimates) vs same time span for PV @5.5hr/s/day generation. cost is not that too much different and you dont have them flood (rivers), run out of cooling water (TVA) and Florida where cooling water is over 100 degrees. Is this what you were asking?

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look at the Germans Solar Decathlon winning house. 5 of the 6 sides were almost completely covered in PV (4 sides and roof, including louvers on the windoes)


I was was wonder if there is a dollar amount utilities on average have had to pay for disasters, outages, and other mishaps over the course of their existence? How much rate payer dollars have been spent on clean ups and/or shutdown of costly assets that failed (like nuke here in SoCal)? How much have they padded into current rate case reviews for likely future disasters? I'm sure insurance companies have all that data in order to establish coverage.

It would be interesting to evaluate the cost avoidance distributed energy resources would bring to the table in mass across the country. It is interesting that commission are doing resource planning for 10-20 years out right now and I don't think they are taking this into consideration at the moment as far as I know. It appears there is ample historic evidence to show the added cost of inevitable disasters that happen with most of the generating assets in the works to be added. I think it is of significant importance for commissions to now include these disaster dollar costs into the value of DER during rate reviews that affect ratepayers for decades after since rate hikes are primary due to future capital investments.
 
There is no 15GW utility scale solar plant. Even on the utility scale they still get power from hundreds of sources. I'm pretty sure that outtages almost always happen not because of generation problems, but distribution problems. If some wants to pay for a battery as insurance against outtages then go ahead, but they shouldn't let everyone else pay for it.


You are pretty sure that outtages almost always happen b/c of transmission problems but you dont think transmission cost make up an amount worth mentioning when discussing the cost of utility vs residential.
 
I was was wonder if there is a dollar amount utilities on average have had to pay for disasters, outages, and other mishaps over the course of their existence? How much rate payer dollars have been spent on clean ups and/or shutdown of costly assets that failed (like nuke here in SoCal)? How much have they padded into current rate case reviews for likely future disasters? I'm sure insurance companies have all that data in order to establish coverage.

It would be interesting to evaluate the cost avoidance distributed energy resources would bring to the table in mass across the country. It is interesting that commission are doing resource planning for 10-20 years out right now and I don't think they are taking this into consideration at the moment as far as I know. It appears there is ample historic evidence to show the added cost of inevitable disasters that happen with most of the generating assets in the works to be added. I think it is of significant importance for commissions to now include these disaster dollar costs into the value of DER during rate reviews that affect ratepayers for decades after since rate hikes are primary due to future capital investments.

One of the biggest public subsidies is that in the US, the government has assumed liability for any nuclear disaster. Without the public assumption of liability, no nukes would have ever been economical after insurance in the US.
 
God Parity

GOD Parity - The End of Utilities using Centralized Generation - YouTube

Here's a simple video explaining the concept of God-parity solar prices. This is the point at which on site solar is cheaper than grid transmission and distribution costs. At this point even if central power producers could generate power a no cost (harnessing the god particle suppose), it would still not be cost competitive to send over the grid with solar onsite. This clip does not cover the issues of storage, but the same cost decline issue applies here as well.

The implication of this theory is that even remote solar and remote wind will not be worth transmitting. Denmark, for example, may need to consider its strategy of having enough wind to cover 150% of domestic demand. Overgenration makes sense now while the surplus power can be exported and fetch a good price. But that price will fall over time as solar and batteries continue down the cost curve. Of course, this need not be such a bad thing for Denmark, since falling battery prices mean that it will be more economical to store surplus wind energy for later domestic use than to export it. The vulnerable link in the supply chain are the transmission operators more so than wind farmers. But localities with too much wind concentration may have excesses that even storage cannot resolve.

Within the US some of our ISOs may be too large geographically. They may need to split into smaller markets over time.

The basic problem with all this is that the grid has up until recently evolved to serve the need of connecting large remote generators with distant populations. The value of this infrastructure depends on the cost differential of remote power and local power. As the cost of local power declines, the value of the long distance transmission infrastructure declines. Eventually it become very burdensome and contentious for society to keep paying for unneeded infrastructure.

I suspect this may already be happening with natural gas. Conventional gas turbines do not require massive water supplies as other thermal energy based on boiling water do, and they do not polute heavily like coal. So they can be located fairly close to population centers. They may not be as efficient as combined cycle natural gas, but not needing massive water resources is a big plus. I would expect you could design a pretty nice small grid with say one gas turbine plant, wind, and lots of distributed solar and batteries, and it would be pretty efficient and not need a whole lot of transmission resources. Essentially the gas plant would just be there to recharge batteries should wind and solar not suffice on certain days. This would suffice for a city of about 50,000 homes. It could function in island mode pretty much indefinitely. It this is true then we don't need massive grid infrastructure. Not that in the US transmission costs are about 3 times the distribution costs. So you can still have small grids with distribution capacity, but save 65% or more on the transmission costs. Really you just need a little transmission capacity to connect to the nearest three or four small grids, where the point is mostly for backup and a little trading of surplus power to stabilize local market prices for power.

So bringing this back to the God-parity idea. The lower the price of onsite power the less comptitive any remote source becomes. The value of transmission lines is largely a matter of arbitrage opportunity between two otherwise isolated power markets. If both local markets connected by a transmission line have pretty much the same price of local power, there is little arbitrage value. Suppose one town has a lot of solar power and another town about 50 miles away has a lot of solar too for about the same price. The two towns would have few occasions to trade power. But if one town has wind and the other town has solar, the transmission line creates value by trading power back and forth thoughout the day with the cycles of wind and sun. So we see that the value of the transmission line depends on the arbitrage opportunities, which depend on differences in how power is produced and consumed. So as onsite solar become cheap and ubiquitous, it affords little arbitrage opportunity from one community to another. Moreover as batteries become cheap and ubiquitous, then daily variation is production and consumption smooth out. If our towns with wind and solar both had sufficient battery storage to smooth out intradaily price fluctuations. So here there is little need to trade back and forth throughout the day, but this also depends on the cost to store. The solar town would need to decide if it is cheaper to use stored solar energy or to use imported wind energy, meanwhile the wind towe has to decide if it is worth more to store the extra wind energy or export it. So the transmission arbitrage is between the value of storing wind energy and the cost of stored solar energy. The cost of storage decreases the value of stored wind and increases the cost of stored solar. Thus, the arbitrage value of transmission increases with the cost of storage. So as the price of batteries decline we should expect that the value of transmission will also decline. I think if we follow this line of reasoning, we get to a place the differential in the cost of wind and solar determines the the arbitrage value of transmission. That is the cost of batteries is identical and increasingly cheep in both towns. So the predominant arbitrage opportunity is simply to use more wind if it is cheaper. Suppose incremental wind was 1 cent cheaper per kWh than incremental solar. Then the value of the transmission line is about 1 c/kWh. That is, the cost of importing incremental wind power (wind plus 1c transmission) to solar town is equal to the cost of incremental solar in solar town. Remember that storage is so cheap that there are no more issues around intermittency so that the levelized cost difference is all that matters to chosing to install more solar or more wind. So if the value of transmission comes down to 1 c/kWh, the critical question is whether the cost of the transmission line is less than its value. Only while value exceeds cost is it economical to add transmission capacity. Now wind town can probably add onsite solar for the same cost as solar town, so if solar becomes cheaper than wind, then there really is no arbitrage left between wind town and solar town, except in extreme conditions as backup. So if solar becomes cheaper than wind, there is practically no value left for transmission. This is the kind of microeconomic reasoning that gets to the place where all power is local. There is no sustainable market for transmission grids.
 
Moderator's Note

Remember, this is the Solar City investor's thread. There are several threads in the Energy, Environmental & Policy section that discuss the merits/flaws of net metering, balancing the grid without fossil, going off-grid, etc. I could probably move most of the last 100 posts into one of these threads, but I'll leave them here.

BUT -- please make sure your subsequent posts link back to the core question, should we be investing in SolarCity?
 
Found this story on another Solar forum. There is a pretty large savings delta between Solar City and the two competitors.

"According to Greenman-Pedersen's report, Solar City's proposal showed an annual savings in the first year of up to $94,525. Over 20 years, the city would save $2.95 million.Solar Liberty and Monolith could only provide a 20-year savings of $2.1 million and $2.4 million, respectively, the report said."

Council takes shine to Solar City proposal - LeaderHerald.com | News, Sports, Jobs, Community - The Leader Herald
 
I appreciate the deep debate that happened over last 100 posts or so. I equally appreciate Robert’s note that we should tie it back to SolarCity as an investment.

I find Foghat’s posts showing us various developments that are happening in the real world to be invaluable.

I was thinking of how we can model all of these challenges (and opportunities) into SolarCity’s prospects. Eg: What does it really mean in terms of losing net-metering entirely in AZ. How much does it affect SolarCity in today’s terms, in 2016 terms, in long-term terms.

Then how do we aggregate all of the circumstances in all the states? To put this all together will be nearly impossible task (or a full time job for a few people), especially given the sporadic nature of the data and the unknowns.

If anyone, the best people who can model this will be SolarCity’s top management. They will be making real money investments based on these opportunities/challenges. Thus they really would have to model all of it and plan for it.

So in a nut shell, the best form of projections really will be from SolarCity’s management itself, wether it’s in shareholder letters, sec filings, interviews. In my view, we shouldn’t try to overstretch ourselves beyond what the management is giving us as guidance/projections.

As it stands, 2015 still looks pretty good. We don’t have official guidance for 2016 but Lyndon said more than once they will do 2GW installations. We got 1mil customer by July 2018 target. And more recently we got 3mil customer by 2025(max) target. - All looking very good.

I want to add one comment to this whole Residential vs Utility debate.

If you read the recent Musk book excerpt on Bloomberg, you see that Musk at one point (in history) knew that Solar is going to be very big but he wasn’t sure how to make money off of it. If you watched/read many of Lyndon Rive’s interviews, he said at least once that, they spent a few years trying to figure out where the best value creation is (yes, a few ‘years’). If utility solar is really where the value is in, they would have started a company there. For what ever reasons, many we know, some we may not, some we can articulate, some we can’t quite articulate, they figured residential is where the opportunity is.

Add to that, at some point they thought there was no value in creating a panel making company/factory. What’s the point when Chinese were so willing to give us as many panels as we want for as cheap as possible? But then things changed and they saw an opportunity and now they are thinking of building huge giga-factories making panels. This simply proves that they are very agile and will simply move to where ever the opportunity is.

Even as per the latest 8K, they still think residential is where the opportunity is (3mil customer target). Still absolutely no mention of utility solar what so ever. I take that as - there is no opportunity there.
 
I want to add one comment to this whole Residential vs Utility debate.

If you read the recent Musk book excerpt on Bloomberg, you see that Musk at one point (in history) knew that Solar is going to be very big but he wasn’t sure how to make money off of it. If you watched/read many of Lyndon Rive’s interviews, he said at least once that, they spent a few years trying to figure out where the best value creation is (yes, a few ‘years’). If utility solar is really where the value is in, they would have started a company there. For what ever reasons, many we know, some we may not, some we can articulate, some we can’t quite articulate, they figured residential is where the opportunity is.

Add to that, at some point they thought there was no value in creating a panel making company/factory. What’s the point when Chinese were so willing to give us as many panels as we want for as cheap as possible? But then things changed and they saw an opportunity and now they are thinking of building huge giga-factories making panels. This simply proves that they are very agile and will simply move to where ever the opportunity is.

Even as per the latest 8K, they still think residential is where the opportunity is (3mil customer target). Still absolutely no mention of utility solar what so ever. I take that as - there is no opportunity there.

Excellent point. So it would seem all the situations jhm has provided us, Elon and Lyndon must have also thought about it in some form. I mean, when you take EVs and solar, plus storage (as JB has said they've been thinking about it for a long time as well), you gotta think they knew it was going to change everything and like you said, picked the best place to make money.
 
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Governor Iges energy future (Full interview) - YouTube

after watching this interview with Hawaii governor David Ige, Solarcity will have a massive market expansion there in short order. He is 100% on board with DER centric grid and is looking for "partners" (Solarcity et al) to achieve this path toward 100% renewable grid. He is completely skipping natural gas in this effort. He also is against the heco merger with Florida based utility(which is all about nat gas investments inhawaii).

With Powerwall installs starting in a few weeks, Hawaii looks primed for big numbers starting in 2016. Hawaii will really be the poster child for the mainland and give credence to planning big time DER integration.

he alluded to all homes having pv, so that is a 520,000+ market if all are available to pv installs, not including community solar for apartments and condos which would probably double the market if implemented.
 
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Yesterday from solarpaneltalk:


"I live in San Ramon, CA in the SF bay area. I've been reading this forums for a few days now. I recently had a solarcity guy come over and make a proposal. We have an electric car and are on PGE's EVA plan. He said that we need not offset 100% due to the PGE's tiered plan. He came up with a system for 80% offset. 7 KW, 28 panels. $35700 purchase price before any incentives. The federal tax credit would be around $10k. They are offering a 30 year loan at 4.99% with $0. He said that the panels solarcity uses are 260w, from REC Norway. Estimated first year production 10137kwh. At first glance, I felt this might be a little expensive. What do you guys think?"

This is the long term problem with solarcity. It's a business built on finding ignorant customers. This sub segment of the market is probably rapidly diminishing.
 
Yesterday from solarpaneltalk:


"I live in San Ramon, CA in the SF bay area. I've been reading this forums for a few days now. I recently had a solarcity guy come over and make a proposal. We have an electric car and are on PGE's EVA plan. He said that we need not offset 100% due to the PGE's tiered plan. He came up with a system for 80% offset. 7 KW, 28 panels. $35700 purchase price before any incentives. The federal tax credit would be around $10k. They are offering a 30 year loan at 4.99% with $0. He said that the panels solarcity uses are 260w, from REC Norway. Estimated first year production 10137kwh. At first glance, I felt this might be a little expensive. What do you guys think?"

This is the long term problem with solarcity. It's a business built on finding ignorant customers. This sub segment of the market is probably rapidly diminishing.

That's $4.90/W - Considering SCTY warranties everything for 30 years, gives you online monitoring and performance guarantees, it is upto the owner to decide what that extra is worth. Try getting someone else to give you the same warranties as SCTY. I have a bought system for just over 50% of the SCTY price (after many rounds of negotiation with many installers) but no monitoring, no performance guarantees and no warranty beyond the product warranties themselves and a 5 year workmanship warranty from the installer. And if you look at solarpaneltalk, other quotes from other installers are similar. It takes some negotiation to get better.
 
28*260W panels = 7.28kW. So rounding == fantasy??

Well it is when someone is trying to make a point that SolarCity is an evil company out to sell an inferior product.

I do think ~$5/watt is expensive, but I haven't seen someone else offer the 30 year loan and 30 year warranty. In California, for most people, this makes it cheaper per month to own solar than continuing to buy power from the utility.
 
IRS makes important ruling. Hint: It has to do with solar - FierceEnergy

I have to say again, policy changes are the biggest influence of SCTY volatility in the market. It is no secret that rooftop solar has a massive market, it is only truely restricted by state caps on expansion as well as net metering policies and soon to be solar+energy storage as ancillary grid services.

Today,(within the past hour) the residential ITC was detertimed applicable to community solar projects by the IRS, which is a positive policy development for Solarcity.
 
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