Sold my Model S after 5.5 years...moving on

[David_Cary]

And a problem with a pack doesn't automatically equal a warranty replacement. It isn't defective - it is degraded.
Tesla can show that your battery degraded. Easy.
They can show that your warranty does not cover degradation. Not a dispute.
Then they can show that they slowed down the charging speed as a safety measure. Hard to argue. Easy for them to have experts state as batteries get degraded, they can't take as fast as a charge. You won't find experts to disagree with that.
Trespass is great and all. Good luck.
Diminished value is in the eyes of the beholder. Tesla can sit up there and compare your value to a similar age and similar cost BMW.

The owner's level of being pissed off does not have a monetary value that amounts to a hill of legumes.

I suppose we can debate this until the end of time. Won't change anyone's opinions. The truly pissed off will continue to dominate the discussion because most people don't care. The don't cares don't post. Similar to paint issues, USB music issues etc.

I will be happy to cash a small check that comes out of this but I would rather we get a good remedy than a cash payout. I am also happy to place a bet on the size of a cash payout for anyone thinking there will be a significant one. We can come up with a odds based on dollar amount. Like I will give 100:1 for $10k and maybe 1:1 for $1k.

 

[whitex]

News flash, Apple caps the "range" of some MacBooks: Apple changes default MacBook charging behavior to improve battery health
However, notice the difference, this only changes the default behavior while customers retain the option to go back to original behavior without losing warranty.

 

[geoffmanley]

Where are the Apple superchargers for macbooks? Also, I'm sure the battery in a macbook is a little bit smaller and less expensive than in a car. You're comparing apples (literally) to oranges.

 

[glide]

Yes. I've never denied that there is a problem with the packs, obviously they are not operating as expected and that's why Tesla imposed these limits.

So they should be covered under warranty.

Why are you defending their actions?

 

[JRP3]

Where did I defend their actions?

 

[whitex]

Where are the Apple superchargers for macbooks?

Hotels, airports, casinos, schools, workplaces, and yet, even your home if you get one (and yes, they are much cheaper, because they charge 200+ times less cells).

Also, I'm sure the battery in a macbook is a little bit smaller and less expensive than in a car.

Not really, a Tesla car just has a lot more of them. Laptop batteries are often built out of the very same 18650 cell.

You're comparing apples (literally) to oranges.

Nope, apples to teslas.

The point of the post was that when another company updates their battery management, they allow customers to opt out.

 

[David_Cary]

I suppose the fire from an Apple computer is less liability than a Tesla fire? I also suppose that a runaway thermal event is more likely when you pack 200 of them together? Apple's warranty exposure on batteries is essentially zero. So that gets back to apples and oranges. (I have no knowledge of any apple product - perhaps they have a good battery warranty. Are we really using Apple as a good corporate citizen when it comes to software updates?)

Not sure when a product that has not been done before doesn't perform exactly as expected, that triggers a warranty claim. Bark loud enough and when your battery is 7.5 years old, they will allow faster charging. Go ahead and do it. Your choice and all. Remember, you have no degradation warranty.

 

[whitex]

I suppose the fire from an Apple computer is less liability than a Tesla fire? I also suppose that a runaway thermal event is more likely when you pack 200 of them together? Apple's warranty exposure on batteries is essentially zero. So that gets back to apples and oranges. (I have no knowledge of any apple product - perhaps they have a good battery warranty. Are we really using Apple as a good corporate citizen when it comes to software updates?)

Not sure when a product that has not been done before doesn't perform exactly as expected, that triggers a warranty claim. Bark loud enough and when your battery is 7.5 years old, they will allow faster charging. Go ahead and do it. Your choice and all. Remember, you have no degradation warranty.

Say a laptop catches on fire and brings down a plane, what do you think the liability there would be? What if the laptop just burns down a house? Laptops can have high liability too. If you're talking purely the replacement cost of the actual car vs. a computer, sure, but that's why cars cost much more money too.

Back to the topic at hand, Tesla limited the batteries without telling the customers why, Was it for safety, or was it to reduce their own warranty cost? Nobody knows, and there is the problem. What if they determined that the car catches on fire if it's driven in temperatures above 100F, would that be ok if they deployed an update which shuts the car down on hot days, or would they be required to provide a fix that does allow the car to operate at 100F? How about if Tesla determined that the battery dies after ~85K miles, which would likely be under the 8 year warranty, so they deployed an update which kills your car until the end of the year if you've driven 10K miles already, that way they can guarantee that most batteries die after the 8 year warranty. Would you still defend them?

 

[cpa]

I suppose the fire from an Apple computer is less liability than a Tesla fire? I also suppose that a runaway thermal event is more likely when you pack 200 of them together? Apple's warranty exposure on batteries is essentially zero. So that gets back to apples and oranges. (I have no knowledge of any apple product - perhaps they have a good battery warranty. Are we really using Apple as a good corporate citizen when it comes to software updates?)

Not sure when a product that has not been done before doesn't perform exactly as expected, that triggers a warranty claim. Bark loud enough and when your battery is 7.5 years old, they will allow faster charging. Go ahead and do it. Your choice and all. Remember, you have no degradation warranty.

I hold myself out as a CPA, because I am licensed as one. I have over forty years' experience in the accounting field. I keep up with changes in the accounting pronouncements and income tax rules because it is a requirement of licensure, and it is the professional thing to do.

Tesla holds itself out as a battery-electric car company. Li-ion batteries have been around about 40 years, with improvements, refinements, and enhancements evolving steadily. I assume that key Tesla employees, including Musk, have likely over a century of accumulated experience with Li-ion batteries and electrical engineering. I think the parallel works.

Despite my forty years' experience, I know my limitations as an accountant. It would be unprofessional and unethical of me to tackle an audit, review, or tax return in areas that I have never done and are beyond my expertise. If I were to undertake such an engagement, I would be liable for any misrepresentations, errors, or financial losses by not only my client but also third parties who relied upon my work. I'd probably have my license revoked too. Of course the materiality of my errors and any financial losses would be what triggers any complaint, lawsuit, or disciplinary action. A $1,000 audit that resulted in a financial loss of $2,500 is a lot different from a $200,000 audit that resulted in a $25,000,000 loss.

If I could alter your statement: "Not sure when an accounting engagement that has not been done before doesn't perform exactly as expected, that triggers a professional liability claim." It surely would.

If a person or a company holds themselves out as knowledgeable the public has a right to assume that they are getting what they paid for. Advertising and promotional statements serve to punctuate to the public that we can rely upon their products and services.

Tesla could have done things differently, and we would not be having this discussion. They could have offered a 4-year, 50,000 mile warranty. They could have disclosed up front at purchase that they reserve the right to reduce battery capacity artificially and L3 charging speeds any time in the future. They could have sent a text message with the dreaded update last year notifying us what changes were included in the update and the effects of opting out of the update.

This is my prolix explanation to say that ignorance is not a defense unless this ignorance is disclosed and the consumer is aware of any possible future repercussions of this ignorance.

 

[ACA Man]

...Tesla could have done things differently, and we would not be having this discussion. They could have offered a 4-year, 50,000 mile warranty. They could have disclosed up front at purchase that they reserve the right to reduce battery capacity artificially and L3 charging speeds any time in the future. They could have sent a text message with the dreaded update last year notifying us what changes were included in the update and the effects of opting out of the update.

This is my prolix explanation to say that ignorance is not a defense unless this ignorance is disclosed and the consumer is aware of any possible future repercussions of this ignorance.

I couldn’t have said any better.

I am sure Tesla had lost a lot of early loyal customers due to their unscrupulous way of doing business.
My guess is they don’t really care since there’s always a new wave of customers who’d rather bite the bullet and accept their new Tesla despite the lack of quality.

 

[David_Cary]

At some point, when you are growing exponentially, the original customers matter a lot less.
The 8 year warranty reassured many of us plunking down cold hard cash. Arguably we were all tacking a plunge and any caveats and limitations on the future would have given some or many of us pause. Maybe that would have been a big deal.

Li-on around for 40 years? Ok, tell that to Nissan. They made a much bigger mistake. Nissan is a mature global company.
Phones started quick charging about 3 years ago (at least my Samsung). I seem to remember Samsung had a little fire issue.

So Nissan had horrible degradation and Samsung had a lot of fires.

Ok - now how does that compare to accounting? Accounting is probably the most conservative profession whose entire livelihood is based on drawing within the box. Technology isn't moved forward by Accountants.(I happen to have an equally conservative profession so not meant as an insult to the profession).

 

[EVortex]

When customers trust vendors more sales are made. Lack of transparency leads to distrust. Successful companies that get this stay successful and those that don’t eventually fade over time (unless they are monopolies).

 

[P100D_Me]

I am sure Tesla had lost a lot of early loyal customers due to their unscrupulous way of doing business.
My guess is they don’t really care since there’s always a new wave of customers who’d rather bite the bullet and accept their new Tesla despite the lack of quality.

Yes companies can get away with that while customers options are limited, not saying Nokia treated customers badly but a classic case of being king of the hill one day and a few years later scratching their heads wondering what went wrong.

 

[David_Cary]

Apple treats its customers pretty horribly. Matter of opinion - sure. But I don't trust their battery life or that they aren't going to slow my old phone down. I know they won't touch the phone if someone else has touched it. Sound familiar?
Uber - try getting someone on the phone? Horrible.
Every cell phone company/cable company.

Nope - modern consumer doesn't care as much about such things.Tech dominates over such things.

Personally, I have banned Apple. But I would buy Tesla again.But, agree, some of that is because I have options. Remind me what equivalent or superior options I have to Tesla?

I am just saying that all companies have made mistakes. Pushing technology can always create issues. And, yes, trusting a car company is a big deal. I am able to give Tesla a partial pass. I don't need to supercharge often so it is a minor issue for me. And most Tesla owners do not supercharge often.

Now..... long auto travel may be more common in the coming months to years. So some owners might be discovering the issue soon....

 

[ACA Man]

Yes companies can get away with that while customers options are limited, not saying Nokia treated customers badly but a classic case of being king of the hill one day and a few years later scratching their heads wondering what went wrong.

Exactly.

 

[EVortex]

Exactly.

Can’t keep the plates spinning forever.

 

[EVortex]

Leadership and corporate culture drive company actions. When success fades some companies fail and others make changes with the hopes of a turnaround. Dish Network is an example of a company with some of the worst customer service and they nearly failed. New leadership improved customer service and made it a priority. Not that they are perfect now, but Dish made positive customer service changes, modified the culture and are more successful now because of it. Before all of the Dish haters respond, I am not saying they are the best, but they are better than before and they are more successful as a result. But why would a company like Tesla wait until a turnaround is needed? Why not change priorities and culture now? Ask Elon and the Board - it usually starts there.

 

[ACA Man]

Leadership and corporate culture drive company actions. When success fades some companies fail and others make changes with the hopes of a turnaround. Dish Network is an example of a company with some of the worst customer service and they nearly failed. New leadership improved customer service and made it a priority. Not that they are perfect now, but Dish made positive customer service changes, modified the culture and are more successful now because of it. Before all of the Dish haters respond, I am not saying they are the best, but they are better than before and they are more successful as a result. But why would a company like Tesla wait until a turnaround is needed? Why not change priorities and culture now? Ask Elon and the Board - it usually starts there.

This is purely my thought/opinion and so it may or may not worth anything.

I DO believe Musk started out with a desire to better the environment once he saw the benefit(s) of EV vs ICE.
Things were great for both Tesla & their customers for the first few years and then Musk started to try to please stockholders by pushing deliveries to meet quarterly numbers.

What he failed to realize is Tesla, without wasting tons of money on advertising, was dependent of words of mouth from loyal owners.
By pushing deliveries without a real QC department, both new owners and service centers are left to take care of those so-called blemishes.
To make the bad matter worse, the loyal fans didn’t help Tesla at all by attacking new owners whenever they got on here to state their cases. It got so bad it almost became a cult where Musk can do no wrong. At the end of the day, it’s just a car and nothing more.
The funny thing about a cult is the members do seem to be able to think for themselves.
I lost count of how many I saw people posted...Tesla is not a car company, it’s a tech company that happened to make cars.
What kind of bs is that?

Furthermore, as far as I can see, the reason why it’s not been publicly bad for Tesla is due to their rigorous exercise of NDA to keep things out of the public eye. The question is how much longer can they hide their unscrupulous business practice.

To be perfectly fair, as someone mentioned earlier, it’d be alright IF they disclosed everything to the potential owners so there’d be any ‘surprises’ later on. Take the CPO and then used cars programs for example. They said they performed 270 inspection points for CPOs and then 70 inspection points for used. I seriously doubt they did those at all.

To make a long story short, I honestly had high hopes for both Musk & Tesla and to say I am very disappointed is an understatement.

 

[EVortex]

This is purely my thought/opinion and so it may or may not worth anything.

I DO believe Musk started out with a desire to better the environment once he saw the benefit(s) of EV vs ICE.
Things were great for both Tesla & their customers for the first few years and then Musk started to try to please stockholders by pushing deliveries to meet quarterly numbers.

What he failed to realize is Tesla, without wasting tons of money on advertising, was dependent of words of mouth from loyal owners.
By pushing deliveries without a real QC department, both new owners and service centers are left to take care of those so-called blemishes.
To make the bad matter worse, the loyal fans didn’t help Tesla at all by attacking new owners whenever they got on here to state their cases. It got so bad it almost became a cult where Musk can do no wrong. At the end of the day, it’s just a car and nothing more.
The funny thing about a cult is the members do seem to be able to think for themselves.
I lost count of how many I saw people posted...Tesla is not a car company, it’s a tech company that happened to make cars.
What kind of bs is that?

Furthermore, as far as I can see, the reason why it’s not been publicly bad for Tesla is due to their rigorous exercise of NDA to keep things out of the public eye. The question is how much longer can they hide their unscrupulous business practice.

To be perfectly fair, as someone mentioned earlier, it’d be alright IF they disclosed everything to the potential owners so there’d be any ‘surprises’ later on. Take the CPO and then used cars programs for example. They said they performed 270 inspection points for CPOs and then 70 inspection points for used. I seriously doubt they did those at all.

To make a long story short, I honestly had high hopes for both Musk & Tesla and to say I am very disappointed is an understatement.

I really want Tesla to be successful. Great cars, good for the environment, international focus, innovation minded - and yes, I own stock. Tesla could have it all and stay at the top of the car industry for a long time, but they need to focus on the customer experience, transparency in process and action, standardization of SCs and communication, and long term success instead of short term profits. I hope the current leadership moves in this direction and if they don’t then I hope the new leadership will.

 

[JRP3]

Furthermore, as far as I can see, the reason why it’s not been publicly bad for Tesla is due to their rigorous exercise of NDA to keep things out of the public eye. The question is how much longer can they hide their unscrupulous business practice.

I'd say this forum and others provide plenty of examples that NDA's are not keeping people quiet. I think more likely is that the vast majority of Tesla owners are happy with their vehicles and the service they've received. Repeated surveys reflect this. This is not to take away from the terrible service and communication that too many people have experienced but it is still a small number in relation to the whole. Don't forget that every OEM has dropped the ball at one time or another yet people still buy their products.