[Speculation] Model 3 0.237 kwh/mile!

[JeffK]

It's not profit until they amortize the cost of the SC install.

-Jim

Cost of the install is $300,000 or less. Usually paid for by profits from vehicle sales up until this point.

 

[Alketi]

Not fair/ethical if they are claiming that the fees aren't for profit... In my area $0.20 per kWh would mean they were jacking up the price 500%.

The price they charge is based on state/location, at least it was the last time I checked. From the plans, it sounds like every Model 3 owner will get ~1,000 miles of free charging. So this would be aimed at consistent long-trippers and/or to prevent someone from earning minimum wage while reading a book every night at a Supercharger stall.

If Tesla doesn't make a profit on something we all realize there will be no Tesla, right?

 

[JeffK]

The price they charge is based on state/location, at least it was the last time I checked. From the plans, it sounds like every Model 3 owner will get ~1,000 miles of free charging. So this would be aimed at consistent long-trippers and/or to prevent someone from earning minimum wage while reading a book every night at a Supercharger stall.

If Tesla doesn't make a profit on something we all realize there will be no Tesla, right?

Yes exactly, they price by location which is why making a blanket $0.20 wouldn't be right for some locations.

Tesla makes a profit on cars and energy products. They say they are not using the superchargers or service centers for profit.

 

[S3XY]

We know these are the same motors used in the Semi, does that lend any hints into the form that any improvements might be taking. Something that would be good for a very large vehicle. Tesla would make a different motor for the Semi if the model 3 or S motors where less then ideal.

Not only is it a large vehicle, it's a high mileage vehicle. This speaks volumes to the expected durability of the new motors.

 

[Reciprocity]

I like the thought, but the first part is unfortunately untrue. Gasoline has been artificially priced for years. Even with that, you can still buy a gas car with a range greater than the longest range Model 3, enough gas to last the life of that car and all maintenance for less than the cost of solar plus EV (plus additional electricity or battery storage depending on your setup).

I'm hoping the price of solar comes down in the not too distant future. Once the price of solar and batteries comes down then it'll be a no brainer and far superior to gas I agree.

Yeah, but you can also power your house with the solar. Can you power your house with the gas?

If it has been artificially priced, what exactly does that mean? It should actually be more expensive because oil is subsidized.

Your argument is very confusing. Are you saying that gas is really 25c per gallon and its just price fixing to bilk us out of all of our money. If so, I want some XOM stock because that should be easy money.

 

[McRat]

Yes exactly, they price by location which is why making a blanket $0.20 wouldn't be right for some locations.

Tesla makes a profit on cars and energy products. They say they are not using the superchargers or service centers for profit.

How much are you paying for 8am-6pm 480 3-ph? Around here it's over $0.30/kWh, and could get much higher if your peak daytime draw in the summer is over 200kW. This does not mean you're using 200kW each hour average, it means at any time during the month, even for 15 minute, you exceed 200kW at the tap.

If you don't know, ask. Assume Peak is 240 kW Demand-based (two cars at 100kW each concurrently). Do not forget that part, it's very important. The more instant draw you need to support, the higher the effective kWh rate is. Example, if I wanted 200 kW Peak Demand service, I pay a fee of $3,464 a month BEFORE I pay for any kWh's of actual power.

If you think power gets cheaper the more you buy, and you get a corporate discount, you'd be mistaken in most areas. Businesses tend to use a lot of power during the day, when most houses aren't using peak power yet.

 

[ohmman]

The topic is about the .237kWh/mile data from the site scrape.

Supercharging electricity rate discussion is available all over this forum.

Much love.

 

[JeffK]

How much are you paying for 8am-6pm 480 3-ph? Around here it's over $0.30/kWh.

I just moved recently, my new company is a flat 10 cents per kWh... the older company had a tier based on usage but not time of day starting around $0.06 - $0.09 but with higher fixed costs than what I have now.

Yeah, but you can also power your house with the solar. Can you power your house with the gas?

If it has been artificially priced, what exactly does that mean? It should actually be more expensive because oil is subsidized.

Your argument is very confusing. Are you saying that gas is really 25c per gallon and its just price fixing to bilk us out of all of our money. If so, I want some XOM stock because that should be easy money.

Artificially priced means there's a national average of nearly $0.50 tax, on top of that crude oil prices are influenced by limiting production output in addition to pricing by speculation and hedging.

My argument is purely from a financial standpoint. I want and will by a Model 3, but for the price of a small gas car plus 30 years worth of gasoline + 30 years of energy from the grid is cheaper where I am than investing in Solar + EV + battery storage (at the moment at least).

0.237 kWh / mile though might help!

 

[Reciprocity]

I just moved recently, my new company is a flat 10 cents per kWh... the older company had a tier based on usage but not time of day starting around $0.06 - $0.09 but with higher fixed costs than what I have now.


Artificially priced means there's a national average of nearly $0.50 tax, on top of that crude oil prices are influenced by limiting production output in addition to pricing by speculation and hedging.

My argument is purely from a financial standpoint. I want and will by a Model 3, but for the price of a small gas car plus 30 years worth of gasoline + 30 years of energy from the grid is cheaper where I am than investing in Solar + EV + battery storage (at the moment at least).

0.237 kWh / mile though might help!

I have cheap rates as well but solar still drops my 10.6c to 4c over 25 years after Fed Tax incentives and SREC program. That still seems like pretty good savings.

Governments will tax anything it can, so I dont really see the point of your argument. At 4c, it is equivalent to like ~60c per gallon of gas (assuming 333WH/mi vs 30ish MPG). Even if you strip away the gas tax, and dont strip away the oil subsidies (lets assume fed credits offset subsidies, even though they do not) gas would have to be selling for under a $1 at the pump based on your 50c taxes, which cant go away because they are used for things like roads, but lets call that a wash because roads will need to be fixed even when no one is buying gas. So todays gas prices are around $2-2.50 or more for higher grades required for sports cars. Even without taxes and incentives, it still seems to be a pretty big advantage for Solar and that does not include any costs for externality of Co2. Even if you dont believe in climate change its hard to argue that dirty air is good for ones health and health costs are excessive. Anyway, I am not going to beat this dead horse and I think we can agree that .237/KWh is going to be even better.

 

[JeffK]

I have cheap rates as well but solar still drops my 10.6c to 4c over 25 years after Fed Tax incentives and SREC program. That still seems like pretty good savings.

Governments will tax anything it can, so I dont really see the point of your argument. At 4c, it is equivalent to like ~60c per gallon of gas (assuming 333WH/mi vs 30ish MPG). Even if you strip away the gas tax, and dont strip away the oil subsidies (lets assume fed credits offset subsidies, even though they do not) gas would have to be selling for under a $1 at the pump based on your 50c taxes, which cant go away because they are used for things like roads, but lets call that a wash because roads will need to be fixed even when no one is buying gas. So todays gas prices are around $2-2.50 or more for higher grades required for sports cars. Even without taxes and incentives, it still seems to be a pretty big advantage for Solar and that does not include any costs for externality of Co2. Even if you dont believe in climate change its hard to argue that dirty air is good for ones health and health costs are excessive. Anyway, I am not going to beat this dead horse and I think we can agree that .237/KWh is going to be even better.

What was the cost of your solar installation?

 

[Swampgator]

"Not fair/ethical if they are claiming that the fees aren't for profit... In my area $0.20 per kWh would mean they were jacking up the price 500%."
You're saying you get electricity for 4 cents a kWh? That does not seem possible.
I pay 11 cents and think that's cheap compared to lots of others.

 

[JeffK]

"Not fair/ethical if they are claiming that the fees aren't for profit... In my area $0.20 per kWh would mean they were jacking up the price 500%."
You're saying you get electricity for 4 cents a kWh? That does not seem possible.
I pay 11 cents and think that's cheap compared to lots of others.

4 cents is the commercial/industrial price. residential is 6-11 cents depending on where you are and how much power you use in a month.

 

[Reciprocity]

"Not fair/ethical if they are claiming that the fees aren't for profit... In my area $0.20 per kWh would mean they were jacking up the price 500%."
You're saying you get electricity for 4 cents a kWh? That does not seem possible.
I pay 11 cents and think that's cheap compared to lots of others.

I believe the poster already commented that he was just looking at supply cost and did not include transmission fees.

 

[KarenRei]

4 cents is the commercial/industrial price. residential is 6-11 cents depending on where you are and how much power you use in a month.

Except that if you're buying at industrial rates, you generally have line fees based on your peak power draw rate over a billing period. And the peak draws of a supercharger station are... let's just call them "large" Also, industrial rates are often time-of-day, meaning that when everyone is supercharging charging during the day....

Lastly, go on and try to amortize several hundred thousand dollars with a supercharger. You'll find that it takes much of a decade even on a busy supercharger. On a device that risks being obsoleted well within that timeperiod.

There is nothing at all unfair about these prices. They're if anything generous.

 

[JeffK]

Except that if you're buying at industrial rates, you generally have line fees based on your peak power draw rate over a billing period. And the peak draws of a supercharger station are... let's just call them "large" Also, industrial rates are often time-of-day, meaning that when everyone is supercharging charging during the day....

Lastly, go on and try to amortize several hundred thousand dollars with a supercharger. You'll find that it takes much of a decade even on a busy supercharger. On a device that risks being obsoleted well within that timeperiod.

There is nothing at all unfair about these prices. They're if anything generous.

Luckily they will soon install powerpacks at superchargers.

 

[KarenRei]

Luckily they will soon install powerpacks at superchargers.

Indeed. V3 is pretty exciting. They'll be even more expensive (packs big enough to charge several Teslas in a row won't be cheap), but the speed and power buffering will be worth it.

 

[ikjadoon]

Luckily they will soon install powerpacks at superchargers.

This would make all this moot, right? Sure, you have to amortize the cost of the powerpacks now, too, but they should be paying quite low rates in the evenings.

And, what is up with this "Transportation rate"? Residential, commercial, industrial, and transportation $/kWh rates? Specific for electric cars/buses?

EIA - Electricity Data

Transportation $/kWh rates seem on par with industrial/commercial, though sometimes a bit higher or a bit lower.

 

[Swampgator]

I believe the poster already commented that he was just looking at supply cost and did not include transmission fees.

Oh, duh...

But the overall point is electricity at his home is billed at 10 cents/kWh and Tesla must provide as you all point out the supercharger and related infrastructure, etc. I don't think 20 c/kWh is unreasonable.
At that cost it would be $15 to "fill up" a 75 kWh battery after traveling 300+ miles. That is still half the price of gas. (I assumed 25 mpg and 2.5/gallon cost

 

[electracity]

The topic is about the .237kWh/mile data from the site scrape.

What are the implication of a super efficient model 3? Does it hurt S/X sales?

I think that number is too good to be true, but it is intriguing and big news if true.

 

[JeffK]

What are the implication of a super efficient model 3? Does it hurt S/X sales?

I think that number is too good to be true, but it is intriguing and big news if true.

If you need a larger vehicle to carry more cargo or to carry 7 passengers, or just to show off, then you'd need S/X.