Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[Rootboy]

Got no problem with the shifter on the dash (basically). Reminds me of my old man's Corvair with push button gear shift on the dash. Turn signal will take some adjustments. Certainly not a game changer for me.

 

[strider]

I'd look at the turn signal buttons, be slightly annoyed, adapt and move on.

But why put you through that annoyance? This is purely a profit grab on the part of Tesla and makes the vehicle harder to use. Also, as someone who has actually been driving stalkless for 2 years now, you are correct that the turn signals are fine as long as the wheel is right side up. But if the wheel is turned at all you have to look down in order to press the correct turn signal. It is nothing like a motorcycle where your hand never moves and the turn signals are a physical lever that is easy to feel with your thumb.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But why put you through that annoyance? This is purely a profit grab on the part of Tesla and makes the vehicle harder to use. Also, as someone who has actually been driving stalkless for 2 years now, you are correct that the turn signals are fine as long as the wheel is right side up. But if the wheel is turned at all you have to look down in order to press the correct turn signal. It is nothing like a motorcycle where your hand never moves and the turn signals are a physical lever that is easy to feel with your thumb.

The other features may matter more and the vehicle pricing may reflect the lower costs also (inflation aside).

For example, I would be willing to trade my stalks for ventilated seats.

 

[EatsShoots]

Logically, how is this easier than pointing your finger out and then swiping down?

This and the buttons are the worst versions of shifters IMO. It was too easy to go to N on these. The screen swipe is less movement and requires less hand motion....at the same exact distance as this.

IMO if you are saying you are fine with this but against the screen swipe, you are just being ridiculous.

Your post hints at the sense that you don't understand why so many cars still have buttons and dials. Hint: it's not easier to touch a screen than engage with a mechanical input device. It's why Ford added a dial to the screen of their mach-e that mimics the same action they had hoped people would be happy to do with their fingers. It's why your keyboard has a hundred buttons instead of a flat touch screen. It's why video game controllers are a mishmash of springs and buttons and sticks. Technologically there's nothing whatsoever preventing Tesla from replacing the steering wheel with a touch screen through which you could use your finger to drive. That would be even less effort than turning a wheel.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Your post hints at the sense that you don't understand why so many cars still have buttons and dials. Hint: it's not easier to touch a screen than engage with a mechanical input device. It's why Ford added a dial to the screen of their mach-e that mimics the same action they had hoped people would be happy to do with their fingers. It's why your keyboard has a hundred buttons instead of a flat touch screen. It's why video game controllers are a mishmash of springs and buttons and sticks. Technologically there's nothing whatsoever preventing Tesla from replacing the steering wheel with a touch screen through which you could use your finger to drive. That would be even less effort than turning a wheel.

Basically you are saying, "It's technology and I don't like it", it's ergonomically worse to reach to turn a dial at a greater distance with more room for error.

There's no logic saying "turning a dial" or "pushing down an individual button" is better than simply pointing at something and bringing your arm in a down motion.

Stalks, yes...right by the wheel...you can do it with one finger or your hand, but the knob is terrible and way worse/far easier to make a mistake than the screen swipe...and additionally more difficult to do 3 point turns.

 

[R.P.E.]

This is the exact same argument when auto manufacturers switched from physical buttons to touch capacitive buttons for environmental controls/U.I.

The reality is, it doesn’t work for everyone no matter what someone chooses to have ‘stalks’ or not, physical buttons touch capacitive, etc. What matters is, you buy what you prefer. If you don’t like what an auto manufacture does for a change or implements, do your research and make an informed decision that vehicle is not for you. There are other options out there, unless you’re specifically devoted to Tesla as a brand.

 

[3sr+buyer]

There's no logic saying "turning a dial" or "pushing down an individual button" is better than simply pointing at something and bringing your arm in a down motion.

Well designed buttons, knobs, etc. can be used by feel without looking at them. However, not all buttons, knobs, etc. are well designed.

 

[Michael24]

Until you only use no stalk, going back and forth to cars that have stalk will always create difficulties. I drive both the S and the 3, and I'm always having a hard time every time I switch around what I drive. Meanwhile, my wife only drives the S and mastered the no stalk without any complaints since that is her only car.

 

[EatsShoots]

Basically you are saying, "It's technology and I don't like it", it's ergonomically worse to reach to turn a dial at a greater distance with more room for error.

There's no logic saying "turning a dial" or "pushing down an individual button" is better than simply pointing at something and bringing your arm in a down motion.

Stalks, yes...right by the wheel...you can do it with one finger or your hand, but the knob is terrible and way worse/far easier to make a mistake than the screen swipe...and additionally more difficult to do 3 point turns.

Basically you’re saying it’s technology so it must be better.

As for my logic, enjoy: Science Proves That Buttons Are Better Than Touchscreens

This isn’t new to anyone paying attention. All you need to do is look at the world’s best vehicles and you’ll see that they are littered with buttons and knobs. The industry doesn’t even debate this point anymore by the way.

 

[whitex]

The M-B GLC shift lever looks suspiciously like a 2015-vintage Model S shift lever. For older cars, Tesla utilized M-B parts. Perhaps the expense of said parts is why they decided to softwarize everything.

2015 steering column was an MB sourced part. As were the window control buttons on the doors. Brake booster was Bosch. There were a bunch of other manufacturer parts in there.

Of course touch instead of stalks is a cost optimization, so is not instrument cluster on 3/Y. Neither are usability improvements.

 

[MobileClimate]

Less moving parts is always a good thing ..don’t know why people don’t see that

 

[uscbucsfan]

Basically you’re saying it’s technology so it must be better.

As for my logic, enjoy: Science Proves That Buttons Are Better Than Touchscreens

This isn’t new to anyone paying attention. All you need to do is look at the world’s best vehicles and you’ll see that they are littered with buttons and knobs. The industry doesn’t even debate this point anymore by the way.

We are talking about shifting and you are trying to say turning a knob is a better more intuitive solution. The whole buttons are better than a screen are about muscle memory and not needing to search for menus and submenus. That's speaking about climate control and seat heaters and the like. That's not relevant with the swipe shifting.

Again, you point your finger out and pull down or rise it up...compared to turning a knob through past neutral or pushing a fixed button separated by other buttons for something like shifting gears.

The stalk is easier to just click down, but the screen swipe is less physical movement and less chance for error than a hard button (Hyundai) or the ridiculous knob.

 

[LiamPope]

Less moving parts is always a good thing ..don’t know why people don’t see that

True - adding more buttons to a moving wheel instead of static stalks is definitely not a good thing.

 

[father_of_6]

Folks, I'm pretty sure the thread title is "argument settled", so... why are we still arguing?

Everyone knows that Snickers bars are better than button candy. Shouldn't this be proof enough?

In my opinion, it's fair for one to argue that "the buttons work okay", or "you'll get used to them", or "shifting on the screen is good", or "auto shifting works most of the time".

However, it would be entirely unacceptable for one to argue that "using the turn signal stalk is worse than using buttons on the steering wheel", or "using the shifting stalk is worse than touching the screen", or "using the shifting stalk is worse than auto shifting". Those statements are all objectively false for various proven and measurable reasons.

Is Tesla doing this to reduce costs and/or points of failure? (less parts is better)... probably.

Does Tesla think stalkless is *better*? Probably not. Do they think it's acceptable? Clearly. Will the masses agree? I think the answer is no. I suspect removing the stalks will create a demand problem. In fact, I know this to be true because myself and many others on this forum have already thoroughly stated that we won't own one without stalks.

In software, it's common to do "hallway usability testing". That is... grab a handful of people unfamiliar with your software and ask them to test out a given feature... if any of them can't figure out how it works, you have a problem.

I strongly suspect that if a dozen potential buyers test drive a stalkless Tesla for the first time, at least 1/4 of them will find the turn signals and shifting unacceptable... but probably the number is higher. Some of them might even buy anyways because of other factors, but the lack of stalks will always be a problem for them.

I also strongly suspect that at least a *few* accidents will be attributable to the lack of stalks. Some pedestrian/cyclist is going to get run over at a roundabout because 90% of Tesla stalkless vehicles won't use blinkers coming out of them. I'm sure there are other scenarios where it will be an issue too.

Argument settled pretty please?

 

[EfficientWatts]

In software, it's common to do "hallway usability testing". That is... grab a handful of people unfamiliar with your software and ask them to test out a given feature... if any of them can't figure out how it works, you have a problem.

I wouldn't be surprised if the usability testing group was size N=1, where that 1 person equals Elon Musk. Kidding aside, I would imagine that there may have been pushback and an actual larger test group, but Elon being Elon he probably rammed this through. Only when the actual demand problem kicks in (if it does, can't say yet how the public will react yet) will they come back.

 

[zoomer0056]

Folks, I'm pretty sure the thread title is "argument settled", so... why are we still arguing?
[snip] [snip] [snip] [snip]

Wait ... is it settled or not.
[snip] [snip] [snip] .....

 

[flai54]

I only know where it is because of a Teslarati article. It’s in the dumbest spot imaginable — above your head.

I first pointed out the location of the gear selector on the first page of this thread. I mean is it really dumb though because currently the Hazard lights are located there on the current generation of the Model 3 and Model Y. I wonder why they didn't put the gear selector by the wireless charging pad like they did for the Model S/X but perhaps they had a reason.

 

[EatsShoots]

Wait ... is it settled or not.
[snip] [snip] [snip] .....

It’s settled. Stalk > no stalk

 

[flai54]

It’s settled. Stalk > no stalk

I will say the way you activate Autopilot is dumb with the gear stalk but shifting the gear stalk twice down. With the current Model S/X with no stalks, all you need to do is press in on the right scroll wheel and boom you are done which makes way more sense. I wish Tesla would push a software update for even stalk Model 3 and Model Ys to be able to activate Autopilot by pushing in on the right scroll wheel button.

 

[EatsShoots]

I will say the way you activate Autopilot is dumb with the gear stalk but shifting the gear stalk twice down. With the current Model S/X with no stalks, all you need to do is press in on the right scroll wheel and boom you are done which makes way more sense. I wish Tesla would push a software update for even stalk Model 3 and Model Ys to be able to activate Autopilot by pushing in on the right scroll wheel button.

Pilot assist in Volvos is a button press on the left. It sounds like Tesla’s is like that, in which case I agree it beats stalk for enabling