Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[addictd2wasabi]

driving roundabouts without stalk. More of an issue outside of US where round abouts are everywhere

 

[gsmith123]

There haven't been similar issues reported for example for accelerator by wire

Good comparison. Think about how much lag there is when you mash the accelerator: it’s nearly instantaneous! The driving experience for brake by wire would be similar.

I’m curious what a steer by wire system would feel like. In a mechanical system you get a fair bit of feedback back through the wheel (like if you’re cornering hard at speed).

 

[whitex]

Good comparison. Think about how much lag there is when you mash the accelerator: it’s nearly instantaneous! The driving experience for brake by wire would be similar.

I’m curious what a steer by wire system would feel like. In a mechanical system you get a fair bit of feedback back through the wheel (like if you’re cornering hard at speed).

If I was to guess, steer by wire would be most sensitive to delays, especially for people who like precision handling. Accelerator is probably the least sensitive, given how much lag an ICE engine adds to the accelerator pedal - between fuel having to injected faster/slower between cylinder explosions - so you have to wait till next explosion, and the flywheel having quite a bit of momentum, there is always going to be lag. Let's not even mention time to spool up turbos - that kind of delay on the steering would have the steer-by-wire car handle like the RMS Queen Mary.

 

[SalisburySam]

Let's not even mention time to spool up turbos - that kind of delay on the steering would have the steer-by-wire car handle like the RMS Queen Mary.

LOL! I remember some cars I had in the ’70s and ‘80s that were like that but not because of the turbo. These were Cadillacs/Buicks whose power steering ensured absolutely no road feel whatever. They did, however, steer the car well just with no mechanical feedback. And I liked that, frankly, in a road sedan.

 

[HAW418]

BIG PROBLEM!
Nissan indicator stalk is on the right (RHD). Tesla gear select is also on the right stalk.
STOP then indicat left and BOOM you in reverse.

TESLA (RHD) vehicles should have the indicator stalk on the right, right?

Apparently many accidents cause by this misjudgement.

 

[jboy210]

LOL! I remember some cars I had in the ’70s and ‘80s that were like that but not because of the turbo. These were Cadillacs/Buicks whose power steering ensured absolutely no road feel whatever. They did, however, steer the car well just with no mechanical feedback. And I liked that, frankly, in a road sedan.

Chrysler products were the worst. I hated the lack of feedback.

 

[drtimhill]

BIG PROBLEM!
Nissan indicator stalk is on the right (RHD). Tesla gear select is also on the right stalk.
STOP then indicat left and BOOM you in reverse.

TESLA (RHD) vehicles should have the indicator stalk on the right, right?

Apparently many accidents cause by this misjudgement.

I drive a LOT in RHD and LHD cars (Ford,Toyota,GMC,Mercedes), and pretty much ALL the indicator stalks are on the right stalk regardless of LHD/RHD, so I never have this problem. Surprised Nissan are the other way around.

 

[Skavatar]

after watching some of the CT reviews, i am interested in steer by wire and the new stalkless yoke.

 

[Candleflame]

I drive a LOT in RHD and LHD cars (Ford,Toyota,GMC,Mercedes), and pretty much ALL the indicator stalks are on the right stalk regardless of LHD/RHD, so I never have this problem. Surprised Nissan are the other way around.

i dont think in automatics it matters much but in manuals you definetly want the indicator stalk on the left in a LHD and on the right in a RHD so you can shift gears and indicate in a roundabout at the same time...

 

[afadeev]

I find it rather interesting that most Tesla yoke arguments fall into “I hate it” or “I learned to live with it” categories. Nobody seems to have come up with a convincing argument why Tesla yoke is overall better for a consumer car than a standard stalked steering wheel. Outside of “it doesn’t block my view of the instrument cluster when pointed straight” there is nothing the yoke gives you that a regular steering wheel does not.

Yoke and lack of turn stalks - solutions to problems that NEVER existed.

You literally pointed out its major advantage.

Cars with steering wheels that don't block view of an instrument cluster have been produced for ~100 years. It has been done.
Just because Tesla still can't figure that out, is a poor excuse for a j(y)oke.

a

 

[Tha_Ape]

Yoke and lack of turn stalks - solutions to problems that NEVER existed.

Problem: Need to lower cost of production.

Solution: reduce number of parts. Now if something breaks, whether it be the horn, the blinkers, the pleather starts peeling, etc, the answer is "replace the steering wheel".

‐--------

People can obviously adjust, especially if you drive it every day, but it'll get annoying when you switch cars, or someone else uses yours and have to reorient yourself/ them with how blinkers work.

I think it's still fair for people to complain.

 

[afadeev]

Problem: Need to lower cost of production.

I don't give 2 hoots about Tesla's cost of production. Neither should you.
That's Tesla margin problem, not customer/driver experience problem.
If Tesla chooses to sacrifice driver's experience, ergonomics, and safety to increase its margins - that's sick and stupid!

Solution: reduce number of parts. Now if something breaks, whether it be the horn, the blinkers, the pleather starts peeling, etc, the answer is "replace the steering wheel".

Tesla imposing its manufacturing ineptitude onto vehicle owners IS an OWNERS' problem.
That's dumb, and undesirable.
Forcing expensive part's replacement when something minor breaks - increases long-term cost of OWNERSHIP.
That's dumb, and undesirable.

People can obviously adjust, especially if you drive it every day, but it'll get annoying when you switch cars, or someone else uses yours and have to reorient yourself/ them with how blinkers work.

"Adjust" implies downgrade to an inferior solution.
Which is what j(y)oke's and lack of stalks impose on the OWNERS.

I think it's still fair for people to complain.

I think it's fair for people to point out the anti-customer stupidity of (some? many?) of the Tesla's choices.
Of course, one could retort that we already know how Elon would respond to customers' complaints - "go f*ck yourself".

a

 

[texas_star_TM3]

Problem: Need to lower cost of production.

Solution: reduce number of parts. Now if something breaks, whether it be the horn, the blinkers, the pleather starts peeling, etc, the answer is "replace the steering wheel".

‐--------

People can obviously adjust, especially if you drive it every day, but it'll get annoying when you switch cars, or someone else uses yours and have to reorient yourself/ them with how blinkers work.

I think it's still fair for people to complain.

yeah... that seems to be Tesla's go to solution at the expense of the driving experience / UX experience...

radar = GONE. vision only "good enough"

USS = GONE. vision only "good enough"

stalks = GONE

passenger front seat lumbar support = GONE


but they did add a color LCD touch screen for the rear seats which most definitely won't get used for watching movies when you have to look at the floor....

 

[Tha_Ape]

I don't give 2 hoots about Tesla's
I think it's fair for people to point out the anti-customer stupidity of (some? many?) of the Tesla's choices.
Of course, one could retort that we already know how Elon would respond to customers' complaints - "go f*ck yourself".

a

Not gonna lie... the rumor of lack of stalks along with unknown tax credit availability pushed me to buy a M3P in June.

Both of my concerns actually came to reality. Completely happy with my decision.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yoke and lack of turn stalks - solutions to problems that NEVER existed.



Cars with steering wheels that don't block view of an instrument cluster have been produced for ~100 years. It has been done.
Just because Tesla still can't figure that out, is a poor excuse for a j(y)oke.

a

Not in a way that doesn't compromise the steering position. The fact of the matter is you have the spoke of the steering wheel going in across where the instrument cluster is in your FOV, and the diameter of the wheel can't be too big (or there won't be room for your legs), so to slot the instrument cluster in that area, there is a limited range of steering positions where you get a full view of the instrument cluster. Most people choose a compromise between the two, but you don't have to do that with a yoke.

Anyways, now that Cybertruck is out and it's clear how it works, that seems to solve any issues with the yoke, given you never have to do hand over hand steering. Seems to work quite well, so the variable ratio steering was the missing piece of the puzzle.

 

[afadeev]

Not in a way that doesn't compromise the steering position. The fact of the matter is you have the spoke of the steering wheel going in across where the instrument cluster is in your FOV, and the diameter of the wheel can't be too big (or there won't be room for your legs), so to slot the instrument cluster in that area, there is a limited range of steering positions where you get a full view of the instrument cluster. Most people choose a compromise between the two, but you don't have to do that with a yoke.

I've spent 35+ years driving, and not once did I have that problem. On any of the dozens of cars, SUVs, and other vehicles I've driven.

Least of all on a Model 3, which does not have an instrument cluster to begin with.
This entire argument is utterly meaningless in the context of a Model 3 / Y, or CT.
And so is the j(y)oke.

a

 

[Midpack]

I think it's fair for people to point out the anti-customer stupidity of (some? many?) of the Tesla's choices.
Of course, one could retort that we already know how Elon would respond to customers' complaints - "go f*ck yourself".

So you prefer the stalk status quo, that’s fine for you and others who’d agree. But there are thousands of actual Tesla owners who are perfectly fine with their stalkless Teslas, even some who’ve grown to prefer it. It’s amusing you think your point of view is the only one, and Tesla is wrong to try something new. Time will tell.

And berating others over and over and over doesn’t help your case.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I've spent 35+ years driving, and not once did I have that problem. On any of the dozens of cars, SUVs, and other vehicles I've driven.
View attachment 1009428 View attachment 1009429 View attachment 1009430
Least of all on a Model 3, which does not have an instrument cluster to begin with.
This entire argument is utterly meaningless in the context of a Model 3 / Y, or CT.
And so is the j(y)oke.

a

You will notice none of those pictures are taken from the actual drivers perspective, but rather lower, which proves the point. If you prefer a steering position that is closer to between vertical and horizontal, there are positions where it won't block, but plenty of people prefer a vertical steering position (vertical meaning the plane is the wheel is closer to vertical, as opposed to horizontal, which is like a bus driver's steering wheel) and it's fairly obvious that the spoke will block the view in that position (especially if you are not short in height). You are assuming just because it works for you, that it works for everyone.

As for Model 3/Y, people who add a yoke afterwards, almost always have a instrument cluster screen too, which is the whole point.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

This all comes down to personal preferences.

The other major ICE manufacturers are not as willing to take the risks that Tesla does because:
1) Their margins are much thinner. - Tesla has a greater ability to try new things, and the flexibility to do it quickly.
2) There's safety in the middle. The risks come at the edges. Tesla is more willing to take risks and can afford the small misses.
Tesla switched to the yoke, got feedback, and now it's optional.
The stalks were a removal, so they aren't going to be optional. That's different than offering 2 steering wheels.
This is what you signed up for when choosing a cutting edge company. You have to take the good of quick software updates and mid-year improvements, with the bad of quick software updates () and new attempts at innovation that might have growing pains.

But some people frowned when the column shifter was moved to the floor, and when the automatic transmission first came out.
I mean, How many people b!tched about seatbelts!! And those save lives! But it didn't stop people from complaining about it.
There will ALWAYS be a small percentage that will complain about anything and everything that might change a little.
If that small percentage gets to a not-so-small number, they'll do something about it.

Cars are not the same today as when we all started driving, for better or worse. All kinds of innovations have occurred, and will continue to occur. So if you're upset about that, go back to a 1950's car, and you won't have to worry about anything changing.

Who on this forum, a Tesla forum, where the future of cars is happening, is going to complain about progress?
You can have an opinion that removing stalks is not progress, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
But why do you own a Tesla if you aren't open to trying new things?

It baffles me that the vast majority of the complaints on here (not all, but definitely the majority) about the stalks are from people who haven't even tried it. Have not tried it! They've made up their minds strictly on principle. Progress does not happen in closed minds.

I guess for those folks, they just wanted an EV, but only if it looked, drove, sounded, smelled, like their ICE cars.
Good thing there are plenty of those coming out from traditional ICE companies for you to choose from.
We won't miss you.

 

[kpanda17]

This all comes down to personal preferences.

The other major ICE manufacturers are not as willing to take the risks that Tesla does because:
1) Their margins are much thinner. - Tesla has a greater ability to try new things, and the flexibility to do it quickly.
2) There's safety in the middle. The risks come at the edges. Tesla is more willing to take risks and can afford the small misses.
Tesla switched to the yoke, got feedback, and now it's optional.
The stalks were a removal, so they aren't going to be optional. That's different than offering 2 steering wheels.
This is what you signed up for when choosing a cutting edge company. You have to take the good of quick software updates and mid-year improvements, with the bad of quick software updates () and new attempts at innovation that might have growing pains.

But some people frowned when the column shifter was moved to the floor, and when the automatic transmission first came out.
I mean, How many people b!tched about seatbelts!! And those save lives! But it didn't stop people from complaining about it.
There will ALWAYS be a small percentage that will complain about anything and everything that might change a little.
If that small percentage gets to a not-so-small number, they'll do something about it.

Cars are not the same today as when we all started driving, for better or worse. All kinds of innovations have occurred, and will continue to occur. So if you're upset about that, go back to a 1950's car, and you won't have to worry about anything changing.

Who on this forum, a Tesla forum, where the future of cars is happening, is going to complain about progress?
You can have an opinion that removing stalks is not progress, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
But why do you own a Tesla if you aren't open to trying new things?

It baffles me that the vast majority of the complaints on here (not all, but definitely the majority) about the stalks are from people who haven't even tried it. Have not tried it! They've made up their minds strictly on principle. Progress does not happen in closed minds.

I guess for those folks, they just wanted an EV, but only if it looked, drove, sounded, smelled, like their ICE cars.
Good thing there are plenty of those coming out from traditional ICE companies for you to choose from.
We won't miss you.

I agree
For those that did pick an EV, you are a forward thinker if done for the earth or tech shiny toys reasons
If you did it for gas or maintenance savings, maybe not the best ideas with gas prices in low $2 right now, some parts
Back to the first group that probably also embraces FSD vs cruise control, is on board with min design/no stalks, on-demand Robotaxi, AI personal assistant, etc
I agree, for I drove a MS with no stalks and realized, I did it and was no big deal (except roundabouts)

Exciting times