Standard or LR?

[Joeper]

Hello
Just about to push order button but already have a bit of range anxiety! I average around 180 miles per day of city driving 3-4 days a week. I’ve been told that I should get ~200-220 miles real world. I live on Long Island so we have moderate cold in winter, but usually stay low 30s so that shouldn’t be a factor for the most part. Also have a decent amount of Superchargers on my route but don’t want to have to rely on them for my commute. I guess I’m looking for some affirmation that the standard model should suffice most of the time. Thanks in advance!

 

[Kimmi]

I had the same decision to make and went with the LR. More features and piece of mind well worth the extra cost.

 

[jrweiss98020]

If you can afford it, get the LR! You really don't want to have to rely on Superchargers in the winter, when range is reduced 25-30% due to heater and defroster use...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Hello
Just about to push order button but already have a bit of range anxiety! I average around 180 miles per day of city driving 3-4 days a week. I’ve been told that I should get ~200-220 miles real world. I live on Long Island so we have moderate cold in winter, but usually stay low 30s so that shouldn’t be a factor for the most part. Also have a decent amount of Superchargers on my route but don’t want to have to rely on them for my commute. I guess I’m looking for some affirmation that the standard model should suffice most of the time. Thanks in advance!

I definitely would not get the SR for that use case. Your daily mileage is too high. You can likely make it work with the SR+, but you'll be charging to 100% a lot of the time to be sure, or frequently using Superchargers.

You can get away with it, but it will be at the cost of convenience and peace of mind (you do not want to rely on using Superchargers routinely - they can get very busy).

The new 2021 SR+ comes with 53.5kWh of capacity (technically 55.4kWh but it isn't currently all available). You need to budget for 10% capacity loss over the first 2-3 years. That takes you to 48kWh. Only 95.5% of that energy is available above 0% (you can use it all like they do in the EPA test, but you have to keep driving with a bunch of warnings below 0%, which no one in their right mind does). So that's 46kWh.

If you want to maintain battery health, you don't want to charge to 100% all the time. So you'll charge to 90%. For peace of mind, you're going to want to charge when you get to 5%. So that's 39kWh (85% of 46kWh).

So after a couple years, at 180 miles a day, charging only to 90%, discharging to 5%, you'd need to do better than: 39kWh/180miles = 217Wh/mi

That's going to be very difficult in winter time, even with a heat pump, even in the city, even in an SR+ with excellent efficiency. You won't be able to use Sentry Mode when your car sits, you'll be worried about how warm you make the car, you won't be able to preheat it, if you get stuck in traffic you'll be needing to turn off the heat, etc., etc. Or, you'll be forced to use those Superchargers routinely - check out how busy they get when you'll be using them. BTW, you lose the ability to use features (like Sentry Mode) when your battery capacity drops below 20%, and you start getting warnings to charge.

Do the same math for the LR (and the very new LR may come with an 81kWh battery soon - TBD!), and you need to do (assuming the new 81kWh battery which is not yet confirmed) 59kWh/180miles = 327Wh/mi - likely totally doable. Must do better than 316Wh/mi for the old 78kWh battery - also doable.

You also said 180 miles AVERAGE. So that suggests some days are higher mileage. Not appropriate use of an SR+ unless you plan to use Superchargers routinely.

Your battery will also likely last a bit longer in an LR, since it will have fewer cycles on it for a given mileage.

 

[Joeper]

Thank you so much for the incredible response. I didn’t mention that I do have home charger planned but it sounds like that doesn’t change the equation. Also, any insight on the timeframe for the battery upgrade? Cost? Thanks again

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Also, any insight on the timeframe for the battery upgrade? Cost? Thanks again

Very much TBD. There has been no official announcement, but there HAS been some testing. But no EPA result. Some people think that all LRs in Q2 are being built with the larger pack capacity (2170L cells), and the evidence supports that, but no confirmation yet.

You can check this thread and a couple of posts:

MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

Thank you @eivissa. My only concern is the battery, so I'm happy with it. My invoice also shows "IPB1", but I really don't worry about the interior. Just curious about what MT315 means.

teslamotorsclub.com

MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

According to eivissas data, 943XXX and higher should be quite safe. Thanks, I will have a look then. I should be very safe regardless if we assume that as long as the car is manufactured after end of March it has the new battery, since my car is arriving in June.

teslamotorsclub.com

Given the demand for vehicles I guess I'd expect a higher price when/if a higher range is announced, but we'll see. Just because you get a larger battery doesn't mean you will get access to all the energy therein, though (they can software limit it). For example: The 2021 SR+ does not seem to have had a 5-6% increase in usable capacity even though it has the new battery type. That's why the official EPA test results are important.

 

[hcdavis3]

Range is King. At some point you will experience battery degradation. I have to the extent of 27 miles of range. LR is the only way to go.

 

[KenC]

Hello
Just about to push order button but already have a bit of range anxiety! I average around 180 miles per day of city driving 3-4 days a week. I’ve been told that I should get ~200-220 miles real world. I live on Long Island so we have moderate cold in winter, but usually stay low 30s so that shouldn’t be a factor for the most part. Also have a decent amount of Superchargers on my route but don’t want to have to rely on them for my commute. I guess I’m looking for some affirmation that the standard model should suffice most of the time. Thanks in advance!

Don't be afraid of supercharging. Drive fast, supercharge often at low SOCs, around 15% and only up to what you need to get to your destination.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Range is King. At some point you will experience battery degradation. I have to the extent of 27 miles of range. LR is the only way to go.

Totally disagree with this. For 90%+ of drivers, the SR+ (or SR) is MORE than enough.

For the OP, yes, a LR is a must. But that kind of usage is very much the exception.

 

[alexgr]

LR

 

[alexgr]

Totally disagree with this. For 90%+ of drivers, the SR+ (or SR) is MORE than enough.

For the OP, yes, a LR is a must. But that kind of usage is very much the exception.

On Long Island, in winter, with wind and snow, the range can be reduced by 50%. Chicago? Minneapolis? Florida or Huston in summer? Even if driving some 50-60 miles a day, any out of town trip asks for a long range version. So, I am not sure about 90%+ drivers.

 

[Kevy Baby]

On Long Island, in winter, with wind and snow, the range can be reduced by 50%. Chicago? Minneapolis?

Range reduced by UP TO 50%. From my readings, I see 30% as an average real-world reduction. But if we use your 50% decrease:
Model 3 SR+ currently has a 263 mile range. Practical range is 80% of that or about 210 miles. With your 50% reduction, that leaves 105 miles daily effective range. Since the AVERAGE commute is about 16 miles each way, I feel confident that 90% of people's commutes are 50 miles or less (each way).

Florida or Huston in summer?

Heat has MUCH less negative impact on range than cold.

...any out of town trip asks for a long range version.

But MOST people don't drive long distance trips on a REGULAR basis. So, maybe you would need to make an extra stop or two on a trip: do you really want to be spending an additional $9,000 for the occasional need?

 

[Rocky_H]

I average around 180 miles per day of city driving 3-4 days a week.

Totally disagree with this. For 90%+ of drivers, the SR+ (or SR) is MORE than enough.

For the OP, yes, a LR is a must. But that kind of usage is very much the exception.

Yeah, I will fall into that camp. I'm normally one who would recommend saving that several thousand dollars if people are considering between the two, because that's normally a tradeoff in some extra patience for charging time while on trips a few times a year. But that is some very heavy driving distance regularly multiple times a week, which will make this an annoyance/frustration/anxiety very frequently, so I wouldn't recommend it in this case. You're a bit out of the norm there.

any out of town trip asks for a long range version.

Nah--B.S. Treating this stuff as impossible or unusable with the medium range versions is inappropriate I think. I still have a 2014 S85, which only fully charges to about 250ish. That's about what these Model 3s have. And the charging on the old S is certainly slower than the 3s have now. But I still use mine for long road trips; a 3 SR+ would be even easier and quicker on long trips. But yes, charging stops will be longer than with the long range. But that may be worth keeping $9,000 in your pocket for some people.

 

[Frank99]

If you were doing your 180 miles here in Phoenix, I’d say save the money and get the SR+. It’ll do that no sweat (meaning with the a/c running) here all year long on the highway.
In your location, it’s a tough call. You’ll lose anywhere from 10-30% range in the winter, depending on how much you pay attention to cold weather suggestions. But, you say your travel is (mostly) city miles, where you’ll likely get 10-30% better range.
Here’s a thought: rent a model 3 on Turo for a couple of days and keep track of how much range you use. Discount that by 20% for winter use, and see how that compares.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If you were doing your 180 miles here in Phoenix, I’d say save the money and get the SR+. It’ll do that no sweat (meaning with the a/c running) here all year long on the highway.

I do think doing 180 miles in a day is possible in the SR+ - but remember this was stated as the AVERAGE distance per day. In addition, what is going to happen when he loses 10% of his capacity in 2-3 years? (In addition...180 miles at freeway speeds of 80mph seems like it's probably a stretch - do you really want to do this every day?)

I agree it can probably do 180 miles in freeway traffic at somewhat slower speeds, with other vehicles around - plenty of drafting opportunities, when not in winter. And city driving will help further in many circumstances with modest temperatures. But what if you only charge to 90%? What happens if you want to leave the car sitting with Sentry Mode on for 4-5 hours?

The thing that troubled me is he was talking about city driving - that's basically the worst case for winter use because low speeds are where the Wh/mi adder is the highest for heat use. The new SR+ has the heat pump, of course, so it's way better - above 20F or so anyway - below that it starts to converge to a resistive heater. But it's still going to cost energy. In fact, the same applies in the summer - slower speeds are going to start to make that AC use ramp up as well. The higher the accessory overhead, the higher the optimal travel speed becomes (so instead of 20mph being optimal, 30-40mph could become optimal).

Personally, I'm not sure about the stated use case transplanted to Phoenix (I know you stated freeway driving but that's not the stated use case). Imagine a 110 degree day driving city streets. That AC is probably sucking down around 1kW (that could be low but I'm not sure). At an average speed of 20mph (seems reasonable for city driving) that's 9 hours of driving. 9kWh. That's a 50Wh/mi adder. If it's only 500W, it's still a 25Wh/mi adder. If he's driving at higher average speeds, again, it could be a 25Wh/mi adder "only."

It's tough to get there. If you go back to the formulas and get rid of all the pessimism (no degradation, take it all the way from 100% to 0%), you get 51kWh which means 283Wh/mi for 180 miles. Sure - that seems very achievable - perhaps even in winter if you're careful. But once you start taking chunks out of that for capacity loss, or if you want to charge when you get to 5-10%...then you're in a situation where it could work at first...but then as the car ages it gets more and more difficult.

Superchargers (even just 10-15 minutes) obviously fixes the issue but he explicitly said didn't want to rely on them under typical circumstances, so that's my assumption. (That's a personal choice - personally I wouldn't want to be Supercharging every day, even though they are free. I like them for road trips only - but I live in a place where they are always full.)

$9k is a lot of extra money, even in the age of crypto & general asset insanity, but for this use case it seems like there's a lot of utility there in terms of peace of mind and flexibility. And if you end up reselling the car it's not like you won't get some of that back.

 

[activehavoc]

$9k is a lot of extra money, even in the age of crypto & general asset insanity, but for this use case it seems like there's a lot of utility there in terms of peace of mind and flexibility. And if you end up reselling the car it's not like you won't get some of that back.

If only it was only 9K$
I don't know the benefits in every jurisdictions, but, where I live, we get a 13K rebate from the gouvernement when acquiring an SR+. We get 0 from an LR, making the LR over 20K$ more expensive.

 

[Jejunjm]

If you were doing your 180 miles here in Phoenix, I’d say save the money and get the SR+. It’ll do that no sweat (meaning with the a/c running) here all year long on the highway.

Agree with this as another arizona persona. I bought the LR, could have easily made do with Sr in retrospect. (But was also sold on extra motor and gadgets that I don't really need). I'm getting 230 w/mi in 1500 miles 90% is highway with temp at 68 or 69f.
I do wish the car was quieter - maybe I should have looked closer at a used s (new was out of price range)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If only it was only 9K$
I don't know the benefits in every jurisdictions, but, where I live, we get a 13K rebate from the gouvernement when acquiring an SR+. We get 0 from an LR, making the LR over 20K$ more expensive.

Those are those weird Canadian dollars though.

I'm getting 230 w/mi in 1500 miles 90% is highway with temp at 68 or 69f.

So as discussed would not work for the OP. Too high. That gives you 220 miles for a 100% to 0% discharge for a brand new car with no capacity loss (expect 10%, though you might do better). In perfect temps.

 

[Candleflame]

Hello
Just about to push order button but already have a bit of range anxiety! I average around 180 miles per day of city driving 3-4 days a week. I’ve been told that I should get ~200-220 miles real world. I live on Long Island so we have moderate cold in winter, but usually stay low 30s so that shouldn’t be a factor for the most part. Also have a decent amount of Superchargers on my route but don’t want to have to rely on them for my commute. I guess I’m looking for some affirmation that the standard model should suffice most of the time. Thanks in advance!

definetely get the LR.

 

[garth_angst]

Hello
Just about to push order button but already have a bit of range anxiety! I average around 180 miles per day of city driving 3-4 days a week. I’ve been told that I should get ~200-220 miles real world. I live on Long Island so we have moderate cold in winter, but usually stay low 30s so that shouldn’t be a factor for the most part. Also have a decent amount of Superchargers on my route but don’t want to have to rely on them for my commute. I guess I’m looking for some affirmation that the standard model should suffice most of the time. Thanks in advance!

I too am in Suffolk. You will only get about 70-75% of your range in the winter here. LR, no question, if you can afford it.