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Stated Range vs Real World

Adopado

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2019
6,511
5,030
Scotland
Fascinating thread! Ive got a MY on order and tbh, I've not really thought too much on range as I just want to get on with using it as I'm have a home charger. But this thread has opened my eyes to people's anxieties/frustrations...!

I have a 40 mile round trip to work...ideally I don't want to be charging every night (extreme laziness) but is it OK to charge up to say, 95% each time until you're down to say, 10-20% before plugging in again...I'm just trying to see whether people have developed strategies so the 'range anxiety' doesn't kick in and you can just enjoy the car.

(With my diesel, I don't fill up to 80%, I just want to avoid going to a pump as infrequently as possible)

You've identified a significant difference between EVs and fuel cars. Yes you CAN run an EV in a similar way, by "filling up" and running until near empty before charging but that's really not the best plan for several reasons. It's not a problem ... it's just different. If you can make plugging in as easy as possible then it just becomes the thing you do when you return home. My home set up means that plugging in takes literally seconds and the car does any necessary charging overnight ... and doesn't use the battery to supply power when I prewarm the car in the morning (a real joy in the winter).
Starting the day with 80 or 90% means that, for most people, "range anxiety" just isn't a thing ... with point 3) below it really will be!

1) With a diesel or petrol car with a quarter of a tank you still have loads of useful range without immediately having to get a top up. With a quarter of a "tank" in an EV it's not the same ... especially as putting in a useful amount quickly is going to depend on having a handy Supercharger or equivalent speed charger nearby.

2) EVs prefer frequent topping up. The battery capacity and general longevity benefits from being kept in the mid range percentages (80% to 20% ish) so adding 40% on a couple of evening charges to replenish the battery is better than putting 80% in all at once. (An exception is the LFP battery tech in the new base Model 3 which is so little affected that the advice is to freely charge to 100%.)

3) Few people have totally consistent car use and can live with a car sitting with 15 miles of range because they only plan driving 10 miles tomorrow! Note in this thread how variable the range can be due to various factors. That unexpected requirement to drive to ailing relatives 200 miles away is no big deal if you can fuel in a few minutes.
 
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You've identified a significant difference between EVs and fuel cars. Yes you CAN run an EV in a similar way, by "filling up" and running until near empty before charging but that's really not the best plan for several reasons. It's not a problem ... it's just different. If you can make plugging in as easy as possible then it just becomes the thing you do when you return home. My home set up means that plugging in takes literally seconds and the car does any necessary charging overnight ... and doesn't use the battery to supply power when I prewarm the car in the morning (a real joy in the winter).
Starting the day with 80 or 90% means that, for most people, "range anxiety" just isn't a thing ... with point 3) below it really will be!

1) With a diesel or petrol car with a quarter of a tank you still have loads of useful range without immediately having to get a top up. With a quarter of a "tank" in an EV it's not the same ... especially as putting in a useful amount quickly is going to depend on having a handy Supercharger or equivalent speed charger nearby.

2) EVs prefer frequent topping up. The battery capacity and general longevity benefits from being kept in the mid range percentages (80% to 20% ish) so adding 40% on a couple of evening charges to replenish the battery is better than putting 80% in all at once. (An exception is the LFP battery tech in the new base Model 3 which is so little affected that the advice is to freely charge to 100%.)

3) Few people have totally consistent car use and can live with a car sitting with 15 miles of range because they only plan driving 10 miles tomorrow! Note in this thread how variable the range can be due to various factors. That unexpected requirement to drive to ailing relatives 200 miles away is no big deal if you can fuel in a few minutes.
Thanks...it's a real mindset change that you need to adopt, which of course I'm not against, otherwise I would have stuck with an ICE.

The most important way to look at it is, I suppose is that you're not actually going to a petrol pump, but going home and plugging in.

A good point about the random trip that you may want to make...with enough charge consistently present, it's never an issue if you've topped up the night before
 
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tl;dr - Winter makes a big difference. As do short trips.

Non heat pump Model 3 LR. Heating/AC on at 20C. No preheating.

This morning we got 72% (324Wh/mile) and 77% (304Wh/mile) - mostly A roads ~ 14 miles each way. I do have M option but didn't take it this morning.

This is our average efficiency (ie mileage vs rated miles - typically 290-300) since December. Trips over 5 miles, which rules out the short trips that disproportionally affect efficiency in early stages of a trip.
View attachment 766817

Now compare the same with April - September last year. Much better.
View attachment 766818

This is the same but averaged over 2+ years (3 winters, 2 summers - one mostly lockdown).
View attachment 766816

And this is lifetime average again, but filters out the regular early morning 'taxi run' which are often mixed A and M roads.
View attachment 766815
Quality
 
Perhaps there is also a point around driving style to consider? At the end of the day you picked the P car because you want the extra power. There isn’t much point in owning it if you don’t use it and that isn’t going to coincide with a large range.

I think 20 inch wheels without aero caps also has a lot to do with it. Even if I drive my P extra carefully, it doesn’t get me anywhere near 240 miles range. Like you say, I bought a P because I wanted the look and the power. I wouldn’t buy a V8 muscle car and then complain about the mp, so as long as people purchase a P expecting 200 mile range, they’ll be very happy with the overall package
 
I should add, if you were to use something like Teslafi (easy to setup) or Teslamate (more customisable) then you'd know fairly quickly where your power was going.
I’ve just started a trial on Tessie. Yeh lots of facts and figures but what exactly should I be looking at? It’s a pity none of these apps just summarise matters with a list of advisories (none to my knowledge anyway).
 

init6

Active Member
Oct 16, 2020
2,120
1,464
Scotland
I’ve just started a trial on Tessie. Yeh lots of facts and figures but what exactly should I be looking at?
No idea, I suggested Teslafi or Teslamate. Perhaps folks with Tessie can chip in.
It’s a pity none of these apps just summarise matters with a list of advisories (none to my knowledge anyway).
Coz it's in the manual?
 

init6

Active Member
Oct 16, 2020
2,120
1,464
Scotland
The Tessie thread:
 
Same here - M3P new in Dec, reckon 180 miles to a near full charge. Dont believe the website !
Bang on!! M3P new in Oct, always work to 180 miles max. Love the performance, hate the range. Think I believed the Tesla website bull of 350 miles range without doing the research. Knew it wouldn’t be the quoted figure, but reckoned on at least 250 miles, not under 200.
 
My commute is 74 miles round trip. I managed to get my battery use to 14 percent for the first 37 miles in and then 20 on the way home. This is at night 50 to 60 mph roads all the way in. I have a SR 2021.

This is without pre heating the battery. Just having heated seats on, lights and the radio. The HVAC takes a huge amount power I've noticed.

I just use the HVAC to clear the windscreen now and then.

This is my first electric car. I'm expecting future electric cars and battery's to be much more efficient but it's till way cheaper than diesel.
 

Adopado

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2019
6,511
5,030
Scotland
My commute is 74 miles round trip. I managed to get my battery use to 14 percent for the first 37 miles in and then 20 on the way home. This is at night 50 to 60 mph roads all the way in. I have a SR 2021.

This is without pre heating the battery. Just having heated seats on, lights and the radio. The HVAC takes a huge amount power I've noticed.

I just use the HVAC to clear the windscreen now and then.

This is my first electric car. I'm expecting future electric cars and battery's to be much more efficient but it's till way cheaper than diesel.

That's decent range for an SR+ in the winter. You'll see more range at summer temperatures. Others in this thread are describing lower range in cars with battery capacities significantly greater than yours. It's not so much battery efficiency of present EVs that's at issue it's simply battery capacity (not the same thing).
 
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No idea, I suggested Teslafi or Teslamate. Perhaps folks with Tessie can chip in.

Coz it's in the manual?
Maybe you misunderstood, I’m talking about real-time advisories that one of these 3rd party apps and websites could give. For example, app highlights higher than usual wh/mi, examines data itself and highlights potential suspects, so that the owner can put right.

Well aware of what a manual is for.
 

init6

Active Member
Oct 16, 2020
2,120
1,464
Scotland
Maybe you misunderstood, I’m talking about real-time advisories that one of these 3rd party apps and websites could give. For example, app highlights higher than usual wh/mi, examines data itself and highlights potential suspects, so that the owner can put right.

Well aware of what a manual is for.

Here are two drives from Teslamate. Which one is usual wh/mi?

Screenshot 2022-02-09 at 18.26.29.png


The energy app in the car is pretty good for real-time updates on how you are driving. (its in the manual ;) )

Getting back to your original question, you need to determine if you are losing energy when the car is being driven or when it's parked. Teslafi or Teslamate would likely show you that in an instant. for example when I had unexplained energy loss I could see that the car wasn't sleeping properly.

Last2Days.JPG


Maybe Tessie can do something similar.
 
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Here are two drives from Teslamate. Which one is usual wh/mi?

View attachment 766948

The energy app in the car is pretty good for real-time updates on how you are driving. (its in the manual ;) )

Getting back to your original question, you need to determine if you are losing energy when the car is being driven or when it's parked. Teslafi or Teslamate would likely show you that in an instant. for example when I had unexplained energy loss I could see that the car wasn't sleeping properly.

View attachment 766951

Maybe Tessie can do something similar.
Thanks for this, I’ve been trawling through similar stuff in Tessie, my average wh/mi today was 427wh/mi

I dunno, just seems high to me like. Hasn’t been particularly cold today, yeh shortish journeys but I would have thought I’d see better efficiency as the day went on and the car warmed up.
 
I dunno, just seems high to me like. Hasn’t been particularly cold today, yeh shortish journeys but I would have thought I’d see better efficiency as the day went on and the car warmed up.

Depending on how long between journeys, the car will also cool down.

Travelling salesperson is a good example of a very bad scenario. Lots of short journeys, with enough time for the car to revert to need bringing to temperature in between. Say your car was rated at 300 mile range. You may be able to get close to that 300 miles in a single trip, but you are going to get nowhere near that doing 300 separate one mile trips.

But multiple ~427Wh/mile trips does sound a little excessive. What's your right foot like? May be worth opening the trip computer or, if not on v11, the trip/energy card.
 
Depending on how long between journeys, the car will also cool down.

Travelling salesperson is a good example of a very bad scenario. Lots of short journeys, with enough time for the car to revert to need bringing to temperature in between. Say your car was rated at 300 mile range. You may be able to get close to that 300 miles in a single trip, but you are going to get nowhere near that doing 300 separate one mile trips.

But multiple ~427Wh/mile trips does sound a little excessive. What's your right foot like? May be worth opening the trip computer or, if not on v11, the trip/energy card.
Wouldn’t know where to start with that energy page in the car. Looking in the app, says I’ve done 27 miles total today, all journeys kinda 2-3 miles and used 11 kWh total. I’m sensible with the pedal to be honest mate, trying to drive as conservative as possible to see if I can do anything with these seemingly high figures.
 

Adopado

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2019
6,511
5,030
Scotland
Wouldn’t know where to start with that energy page in the car. Looking in the app, says I’ve done 27 miles total today, all journeys kinda 2-3 miles and used 11 kWh total. I’m sensible with the pedal to be honest mate, trying to drive as conservative as possible to see if I can do anything with these seemingly high figures.
Yes, that’s the range killer pattern… super short journeys. Usually people doing lots of very short journeys aren’t covering a huge daily distance so there’s plenty of battery to cover it, even though efficiency of use looks poor.
 
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That's the same problem with petrol and diesel cats too, short trip when it's cold vs the same trip when it's warmer.
My short commute of 4 miles to work also ends at a higher elevation, 1 KWh and 0.6-0.8 KWh on the return 4 miles.

The press have created this image of range being very bad and recharge times being too long.

Since the modern electric car has been only around for the last 15 years, compared to the ICE which has been around for the last 100 years and still there efficiency hasn't really increased since the 1950s, as the cars had got heavier and engine design had improved, so the end result is still the same mpg.
 
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Mrklaw

Active Member
Mar 5, 2020
1,800
1,175
Berkshire
That's the same problem with petrol and diesel cats too, short trip when it's cold vs the same trip when it's warmer.
My short commute of 4 miles to work also ends at a higher elevation, 1 KWh and 0.6-0.8 KWh on the return 4 miles.

The press have created this image of range being very bad and recharge times being too long.

Since the modern electric car has been only around for the last 15 years, compared to the ICE which has been around for the last 100 years and still there efficiency hasn't really increased since the 1950s, as the cars had got heavier and engine design had improved, so the end result is still the same mpg.

ICE cars sell on MPG not range, BEVs sell on range. Painted us into this corner of misunderstanding.

If they sold BEVs on miles/kwh based on WLTP and maybe a range in brackets or a 'fuel tank' size, that would help. BMW and some others I think provide estimated efficiency as well as range figures for their cars.

You tell me its 4 miles/kwh urban and 2 miles/kwh motorway (do they call it extra-urban or something strange?) then that helps me as a buyer understand the car is not going to go as far on a tank on the motorway. I know that already on an ICE but you just ignore it because you can fill up so easily.
 
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If the stated range of the RWD is 305 miles but the real world range is ~200 miles:
Is the range shown on the UI screen based on the 305 figure or the real 200 mile figure, or something else?
When Tesla state that the provided home charger (13 Amp plug) will charge at 10-11 mph, is that based on the 305 mile range or the 200 mile range? in other words, would it take 30 hours or 20 hours to fully charge from 0%?
 

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