Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[rns-e]

...and many people throughout automotive history have bought vehicles based on rated power claims, only to be disappointed on the dyno. As I said, this isn't a new or Teslacentric issue. It's a fundamental flaw in how the consumer base views various performance metrics... be it for legitimate reasons or perceived ones. I can understand the specific issues of the early adopters you mention above, however that's a very specific outlier, and one that no longer matters for the current iteration of the car.

Cheap shot - no car maker have overclaimed hp with 57%

 

[tomas]

Even worse, when you eventually could test drive the car and questioned why it didn't feel like it was putting out the claimed number, the salesperson would tell you it was because demo vehicles are electronically limited.

That is a low blow. It is true that demo cars are electronically limited. Your "It didn't feel like" is very subjective. So it is fair for him/her to respond in that way to your subjective feeling about the performance.

 

[Caligula]

Cheap shot - no car maker have overclaimed hp with 57%

Inch or a mile. It matters not, because it's a useless metric.

 

[gsxdsm]

Since this PD HP discussion has become more understood in the last couple months... more recent P90D customers may be more aware and therefore it may seem less important. When I bought my P85D, this issue was not understood by anyone at any volume that would be noticed.

Not trying to speak for you (as your situation is unique) but browse buying threads from Jan and Feb. Everyone thought Tesla was selling 700 hp cars... People were making $138k decisions based on this....



.

I get it and I sympathize. I do have a tainted viewpoint because I went into the decision to buy knowing about the infamous 691hp debate.

Bottom line for me is - does the car drive the way you feel it should? If you were to ignore the HP and drive the car, are you pleased with your purchase?

If you aren't and feel it's not enough or what you wanted, then why not sale the car back to Tesla? I'm not sure if the Happiness Guarantee applies to all purchases, but within 3 months, couldn't you return it back to Tesla? Maybe that's just for leases...

If you are happy with your purchase based on how you use the car, but unhappy based on the numbers that were presented to you in a way that isn't accurate, then I guess its feedback for Tesla to improve how they message and explain the car's specifications - and it looks like that's what they're doing.

The bottom line is - are you happy when you get in your $130k car and floor it, or not. If you aren't then I'd do something about it. If you are happy when you are driving your amazing car but upset about how numbers were presented to you and interpreted...I'd go for a drive and let it go.

 

[rns-e]

Inch or a mile. It matters not, because it's a useless metric.

It really isn't is it, if nothing else it has proven to be a very effective metric in marketing and branding. Every single article and blogpost written about the P85D touts the 691 hp

 

[Caligula]

It really isn't is it, if nothing else it has proven to be a very effective metric in marketing and branding. Every single article and blogpost written about the P85D touts the 691 hp

All you're doing is reiterating why this non-issue is an issue. Saying that it's a marketing ploy (to sell cars or garner clicks/subscriptions) does absolutely nothing to solidify the usefulness of horsepower as a performance metric.

I'll state it once again. There is little to no value in peak horsepower ratings.

 

[tomas]

Some people are outrageously ticked off... some people think it's outrageously silly. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. It doesn't make it any more right or wrong if you post it multiple times.

 

[AWDtsla]

That is a low blow. It is true that demo cars are electronically limited. Your "It didn't feel like" is very subjective. So it is fair for him/her to respond in that way to your subjective feeling about the performance.

They are not limited anymore.

 

[rns-e]

All you're doing is reiterating why this non-issue is an issue. Saying that it's a marketing ploy (to sell cars or garner clicks/subscriptions) does absolutely nothing to solidify the usefulness of horsepower as a performance metric.

And you keep saying hp doesn't mean anything does not make that right. But if hp means nothing I would rather have the 691 hp P85D I bought than the 463 hp P85D I got delivered - should be easy for Tesla to do if hp really means nothing

 

[Caligula]

It is absolutely fair to say that a manufacturer being dishonest is not right, and I've never argued that point. It really comes down to how you're playing the game though. Want to play the short game? Sure, the advertised HP numbers matter. In the long game? The misconception among the public regarding the relevance of HP to real world performance needs to be addressed.

 

[Hookmaker]

Hmm, when the it comes to moving from a perfectly well functioning 369 hp car to a 430 hp car that you were told had 700 and you then paid 30K USD for this exchange, you wouldn't think it mattered??? Sounds pretty frightening to me, if that's what you think. You must be loaded man, or come to think of it, how could you be loaded if you would always be thinking like this?

 

[clarkbariowa]

So there is 228 difference in torque between 85D and P85D. I bought an electric car for instant torque and that is the most noticeable aspect of electric cars and cars in general. 228 ft lbs is a huge difference. Most ice cars don't even have 228 ft lbs of torque. The performance numbers are still the same, so stop complaining about your supercar having low HP numbers now.

 

[LetsGoFast]

There is little to no value in peak horsepower ratings.

Its only the best-known performance measure in the automotive world.

 

[Discoducky]

I've seen similar comparisons over the last year when it comes to this argument and I simply can't agree.

Horsepower is horsepower. The car either produces X HP, or it doesn't.

This is in no way similar to processor clock speeds where instructions can and have been optimized over the years to take fewer clock cycles to execute, multiple cores added, thread cores, etc etc, while retaining relatively similar clock speeds. You can't make 1 HP more efficient or more powerful, by definition. 1 HP = ~746W.

As for the CPU comparison, although Discoducky might not have applied the analogy correctly, it is still a valid analogy. AMD and Intel designed their CPU's differently, with different clock speeds, L1 cache & L2 caches sizes, and x86 extension instruction sets. The point was that the clock speed alone didn't determine which CPU's were better for which applications. With the motor HP, it's essentially the same thing. The presence of a lower reduction gear size or even a multi-gear transmission (check out the formula E cars) would all affect what HP you see at the wheels (and thus 0-30, 0-60, 0-100, 1/8 mile, and 1/4 mile times).

Yes the actual HP doesn't change, but how it's applied affects your measured results, and I think you've all misinterpreted your results.

Actual HP value is lower, sure lets go with that. You can't actually do anything with it other than use it in equations to get to something tangible. So how does that diminish its value exactly? What are you not getting? Is it the 'assumption' of speed, acceleration and performance? Does HP have intrinsic value to those qualitative and quantitative measurements? When I see a Camry with 340HP I have to laugh because I know that the transmission will most likely die in less than a year if you were to use the HP everyday, not to mention the suspension or rest of the drivetrain...anyway

People see CPU speed and think "This one is faster!" and as humans do, try to equate that to real world performance but have nothing to actually do that. Thus we have benchmarks. Several actually, that test various attributes of the CPU and system against real world tests. See arstechnica or tomshardware which are both excellent sites on how to see how deep this rabbit hole goes

People see HP and think "This one is faster!" and as humans do, try to equate that real world performance. Thus we have a dyno, but really? This leaves out a lot of the 'faster' equation like weight of the car, CoD and other variables which are minimal but add up. See this and several other threads to see how deep the rabbit hole goes

People see 0-60mph times they think "This one is faster!" and then they apply that during driving (as long as that scientific method is well understood and easily repeatable which is debatable...I get that) in the real world and should actually be able to reach that figure. And quite a few people have done this to varying success but it has been done.

NOTE: I'm quite amazed at Motor Trend getting 2.6s and wonder how that is going to play out.

Also wk057: When I get an X, I promise that I will be upset if the car cannot achieve stated 0 to 60 times under the stated scientific conditions

 

[rns-e]

So there is 228 difference in torque between 85D and P85D. I bought an electric car for instant torque and that is the most noticeable aspect of electric cars and cars in general. 228 ft lbs is a huge difference. Most ice cars don't even have 228 ft lbs of torque. The performance numbers are still the same, so stop complaining about your supercar having low HP numbers now.

And then again - can you trust Teslas claims for torque? The P85D was listed with 687 ft lbs and now it is listed with 713 ft lbs, but the performance is still the same

I'm sorry but I'm a bit sceptical of all the numbers Tesla puts out and keep changing

 

[P85DEE]

It's area under the battery drain curve. The question is, how many KW-Hrs did they "put into the run". 500 KW draw yields roughly a .14 KW-Hr per second energy consumption. Do that for 10.9 seconds and you have consumed roughly 1.5 KW-Hr of capacity. The only way to know the difference between the two car is, is to compare the resultant performances in 0-60 and 1/4 mile or integrate the power consumption for each doing the exact same performance task and see how much the energy difference is.

Thanks for the explanation lolachampcar

 

[Caligula]

Its only the best-known performance measure in the automotive world.

In no way can you quantify real world performance by looking at a peak horsepower figure without blindly ignoring a multitude of other (more important) variables and factors whilst simultaneously making quite a few assumptions. Or maybe I'm wrong, and a 1,500 horsepower M1 Abrams Batteltank is actually faster than those 1,000HP Formula 1 cars?

 

[stopcrazypp]

And then again - can you trust Teslas claims for torque? The P85D was listed with 687 ft lbs and now it is listed with 713 ft lbs, but the performance is still the same

I'm sorry but I'm a bit sceptical of all the numbers Tesla puts out and keep changing

The P85D has gone through a couple updates already, so a P85D during launch a year ago does not perform the same as a P85D rolling out of the factory today. More specifically, they may have waited until Ludicrous to update the numbers, but the changes likely happened way before.

 

[tezzla]

Many months ago I was in the camp of "I've very satisfied with the power, and & don't care about the HP complaints", but, after seeing the numbers from wk057 & sorka (& probably others), that was when I realized I was duped. Actually, I'm still happy with the performance, but now feel very deceived. Here's my thought process, I used the Tesla reported numbers as gospel (since all prior numbers were met/beat), so I used the phony numbers to compare car A to car B (when I ordered my car, in Oct 2014)). As I said above:

Should I buy car A or car B?

per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 691 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs, $125k
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, $105K

I didn't specifically care about the number, but Tesla said car A has 274 more horsepower (& Elon said it has 50% more hp). I used these numbers to decide on my purchase, since we couldn't test drive the car for over 3 months.

Now we know this (finally):
per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 463 hp, 0-60 in 3.1 secs (with roll-out)
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 4.2 secs (without roll-out)

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy car A again (after driving both), but since they wouldn't give use the "real" numbers (for a whole year) I based my purchase decision on their specs.

How many people here have bought 3 new Tesla's? I spoke with my dollars and in the future I probably won't, and many people here think I'm wrong? it's my fault? I should've known? I'm a whiner?

What ever happened to truth in advertising? When did the Tesla mission go from sustainable cars to misleading people to buy a P85D (well, to me that happened on Oct 10, 2014).

 

[P85DEE]

Many months ago I was in the camp of "I've very satisfied with the power, and & don't care about the HP complaints", but, after seeing the numbers from wk057 & sorka (& probably others), that was when I realized I was duped. Actually, I'm still happy with the performance, but now feel very deceived. Here's my thought process, I used the Tesla reported numbers as gospel (since all prior numbers were met/beat), so I used the phony numbers to compare car A to car B (when I ordered my car, in Oct 2014)). As I said above:

Should I buy car A or car B?

per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 691 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs, $125k
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, $105K

I didn't specifically care about the number, but Tesla said car A has 274 more horsepower (& Elon said it has 50% more hp). I used these numbers to decide on my purchase, since we couldn't test drive the car for over 3 months.

Now we know this (finally):
per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 463 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs (with roll-out)
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 4.2 secs (without roll-out)

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy car A again (after driving both), but since they wouldn't give use the "real" numbers (for a whole year) I based my purchase decision on their specs.

How many people here have bought 3 new Tesla's? I spoke with my dollars and in the future I probably won't, and many people here think I'm wrong? it's my fault? I should've known? I'm a whiner?

What ever happened to truth in advertising? When did the Tesla mission go from sustainable cars to misleading people to buy a P85D (well, to me that happened on Oct 10, 2014).

Actually P85D spec is 3.1 seconds 0-60 with rollout.

0-60 in 3.05 and 0-60 in 3.08 have been done in the P85D.

I could understand your point if an 85D were not nearly a full second slower in the quarter mile than a P85D.

But thus far, the quickest 85D quarter mile time I can find is 12.461 @ 109.220mph. The quickest quarter mile time we have for a P85D is 11.596 @116.42.

A car that can't even break 12 seconds in the quarter mile???????, and some of us are comparing that with a car which can run mid to high 11s in the quarter and we are somehow pissed??????

12.461 and not even breaking 110 miles per hour in the quarter mile is downright crawling, and I can tell you for a fact won't win much these days. I was running 12 second quarter miles 10-12 years ago in a 2003 Corvette and have the time slips and dynographs to prove it.

There are bone stock cars out there 10 years old or older, that will flat out smoke an 85D in a quarter mile. The 2003 Z06 and the 2003 Ford SVT Cobra immediately come to mind. It's the strangest thing, guys in here pissed about a car that can't even break 12.4, when they're rolling in a car capable of running mid 11s. Odd, to say the least.

Some of us have no idea how hard it is to run into the 11s, let alone touch the mid 11s, and especially in a nearly 5,000 lb car.