Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[stopcrazypp]

Should I buy car A or car B?

per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 691 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs, $125k
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, $105K

I didn't specifically care about the number, but Tesla said car A has 274 more horsepower (& Elon said it has 50% more hp). I used these numbers to decide on my purchase, since we couldn't test drive the car for over 3 months.

Now we know this (finally):
per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 463 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs (with roll-out)
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 4.2 secs (without roll-out)

I've seen a lot of people get the history wrong. Actually it should be like this (corrections in bold, relative positioning of numbers arranged like website):

10/9/2014 to 4/2015:
P85D - 691 hp motor power, 0-60 in 3.2 secs
85D - 376 hp motor power, 0-60 in 5.2 secs
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141010-tesla.html

4/2015 (6.2 update which improved P85D 0-60, and drastically increased available motor power from 85D):
P85D - 691 hp motor power, 0-60 in 3.1 secs
85D - 514 hp motor power, 0-60 in 4.2 secs
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-an-asterisk-*-next-to-it-Up-to-691HP/page119

Today:
P85D - 503 hp rear, 259 hp front motor power (463 hp* Battery limited), 0-60 in 3.1 secs (with roll-out)
85D - 259 hp front and rear motor power (417 hp* Battery limited), 0-60 in 4.2 secs (unspecified)

The performance change had to do with the software update for the 85D in April, nothing to do with the motor power spec. I believe someone asked before, if Tesla should have never updated motor firmware for the 85D (Tesla didn't need to do that; I believe it came as a complete surprise when it happened). Perhaps that would have kept P85D owners happier.

 

[tezzla]

I've seen a lot of people get the history wrong. Actually it should be like this (corrections in bold): snipped...
... The performance change had to do with the update for the 85D, nothing to do with the motor power spec. I believe someone asked before if Tesla should have never updated motor firmware for the 85D. Perhaps that would have kept P85D owners happier.

I have never heard Elon say the words "motor power". We all knew there was something wrong when they dropped the P85, 3.2 vs 5.2 was way too big of a gap. They did the right thing (after most people received their p85d's) and changed the 85D to 4.2 secs. Now, to me, this looks an awful lot like bait-and-switch.

 

[brianman]

I believe someone asked before, if Tesla should have never updated motor firmware for the 85D (Tesla didn't need to do that; I believe it came as a complete surprise when it happened). Perhaps that would have kept P85D owners happier.

Please stop propagating this straw man. It's nothing but counterproductive and divisive.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I have never heard Elon say the words "motor power".

They were very careful to include it in every written area to distinguish from the numbers they published previous to the dual motors. But including it in colloquial speech is not always necessary. "horsepower" can be rated in many standards: SAE gross, SAE net, SAE certified, DIN, ECE R24, ECE R85 etc. so even leaving it out is not wrong. "motor power" is just one method (as is the "battery limited" method laid out now for the P85D).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Engine_power_test_standards

We all knew there was something wrong when they dropped the P85, 3.2 vs 5.2 was way too big of a gap. They did the right thing (after most people received their p85d's) and changed the 85D to 4.2 secs. Now, to me, this looks an awful lot like bait-and-switch.

I don't see how updating the performance of a *different* car higher is bait and switch. The P85D also got a performance boost via update, just a smaller one.

- - - Updated - - -

Please stop propagating this straw man. It's nothing but counterproductive and divisive.

I'm pointing it out because it seems to be a major component of his example. The 85D got a 1 second improvement in 0-60 via a software update in April, while P85D got a 0.1 second improvement. Perhaps if Tesla never updated the 85D, in order to maintain a gap, he would have been happier, but then that would go counter to how Tesla does things.

 

[tomas]

Almost everyone who has gotten an MS has seen another released or upgraded to exceed theirs. That's certainly frustrating, but part of the excellence. Everyone got their money's worth compared to market at time they bought their car. Tired of sour grapes. That's my new handle...

 

[bonnie]

Almost everyone who has gotten an MS has seen another released or upgraded to exceed theirs. That's certainly frustrating, but part of the excellence. Everyone got their money's worth compared to market at time they bought their car. Tired of sour grapes. That's my new handle...

Nice try, but what I see is that everyone is going to continue beating this drum until they feel everyone supports their particular position.

Just a suggestion for those in this thread ... it's okay to have all these different opinions. But all opinions have been explained multiple times at this point - can't you all just sit tight with the opinion YOU hold and let others hold theirs? Doesn't hurt a single person to do that.

And yes, I know it's hard. I've been doing my best not to express MY particular opinion. I've typed up a post more than once, than asked myself if it will really help or not - and it won't.

 

[freeewilly]

Shame on Tesla. They lied just like VW except there is no extra pollution blow into the air. They manipulate the numbers and the number can’t be achieve by the car the sold to the customers.

Tesla should disclose the actual HP that goes to the wheels, not the maximum power that can generate from the motor(s). For example, a race team can probably tweak the civic 4 cylinder engine to 1000hp (I’m extracting) that runs on race fuel, although it’s the same engine, but Honda shouldn’t advertise Civic with 1000hp, if you know what I mean.

 

[tezzla]

snip...

I don't see how updating the performance of a *different* car higher is bait and switch. The P85D also got a performance boost via update, just a smaller one.

It's not a "classic" case for sure, but to me it's like: you can buy car A or car B, then after car A is delivered, haha, car B doesn't really exist, here is car C. (I know, this is really stretching it)

Ironically, the people who didn't buy the performance model, got a 20 % boost.

 

[tomas]

Shame on Tesla. They lied just like VW except there is no extra pollution blow into the air. They manipulate the numbers and the number can’t be achieve by the car the sold to the customers.

Tesla should disclose the actual HP that goes to the wheels, not the maximum power that can generate from the motor(s). For example, a race team can probably tweak the civic 4 cylinder engine to 1000hp (I’m extracting) that runs on race fuel, although it’s the same engine, but Honda shouldn’t advertise Civic with 1000hp, if you know what I mean.

they did. Are you happy?

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's not a "classic" case for sure, but to me it's like: you can buy car A or car B, then after car A is delivered, haha, car B doesn't really exist, here is car C. (I know, this is really stretching it)

Ironically, the people who didn't buy the performance model, got a 20 % boost.

I can kind of get what you are implying, but it is stretching the definition of "bait and switch". What Tesla did is technically "upsell" which is a legitimate method (it is what pretty much all businesses do: they want you to buy the most expensive product).

 

[eloder]

Oh no! Now that Tesla released the dyno horsepower numbers, they suddenly will accelerate less! They suddenly will no longer beat 750 horsepower hellcats at the drag strip and quarter mile! The end is coming.

Now for the horsepower truthers out there, can ICE vehicles who have 500 hp on their vehicles now sue their own manufacturers since their performance is vastly inferior to that of Tesla?

 

[SW2Fiddler]

Funny... the press hasn't been stopped after all.
Same editorials as before, Red Team vs. Blue Team, words without end, amen.

Yawn.

 

[aznt1217]

Shame on Tesla. They lied just like VW except there is no extra pollution blow into the air. They manipulate the numbers and the number can’t be achieve by the car the sold to the customers.

Tesla should disclose the actual HP that goes to the wheels, not the maximum power that can generate from the motor(s). For example, a race team can probably tweak the civic 4 cylinder engine to 1000hp (I’m extracting) that runs on race fuel, although it’s the same engine, but Honda shouldn’t advertise Civic with 1000hp, if you know what I mean.

This argument makes no sense because all the tuning happens after the car leaves the lot. Honestly this entire thread blew up way too much. The car still PERFORMS the same as before but with a different sticker... What difference does it make. The buyers test drove the car and ultimately decided to buy it. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you purchase the car.

If you need a higher horsepower for a testosterone boost then there are bigger issues. Every ICE engine doesn't necessarily achieve their HP numbers due to so many conditions but there are no pitch forks.

Its nice that people called them out to publish more accurate figures... But giving out an HP number on paper isn't make or break, test driving the car is. That and we have drag videos against other exotics. Its still a bloody 4 door sedan smoking Ferraris and lambos. Remember that, no HP figure is changing that.

 

[Dwu0212]

Many months ago I was in the camp of "I've very satisfied with the power, and & don't care about the HP complaints", but, after seeing the numbers from wk057 & sorka (& probably others), that was when I realized I was duped. Actually, I'm still happy with the performance, but now feel very deceived. Here's my thought process, I used the Tesla reported numbers as gospel (since all prior numbers were met/beat), so I used the phony numbers to compare car A to car B (when I ordered my car, in Oct 2014)). As I said above:

Should I buy car A or car B?





per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 691 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs, $125k
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, $105K

I didn't specifically care about the number, but Tesla said car A has 274 more horsepower (& Elon said it has 50% more hp). I used these numbers to decide on my purchase, since we couldn't test drive the car for over 3 months.

Now we know this (finally):
per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 463 hp, 0-60 in 3.1 secs (with roll-out)
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 4.2 secs (without roll-out)

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy car A again (after driving both), but since they wouldn't give use the "real" numbers (for a whole year) I based my purchase decision on their specs.

How many people here have bought 3 new Tesla's? I spoke with my dollars and in the future I probably won't, and many people here think I'm wrong? it's my fault? I should've known? I'm a whiner?

What ever happened to truth in advertising? When did the Tesla mission go from sustainable cars to misleading people to buy a P85D (well, to me that happened on Oct 10, 2014).

Well said! It's surprising to me how people still defend Tesla and blame consumers for Tesla's misleading information.

 

[aznt1217]

Well said! It's surprising to me how people still defend Tesla and blame consumers for Tesla's misleading information.

Um so he bought the car without driving it? Satisfied with the performance? The performance didn't change. You made the decision to buy the car. If you won't buy a Tesla in the future, that's fine. Go with the alternatives-- which one? I3, i8, bolt, etron, concept e? Plenty of choices in the future.

Sorry your feelings are hurt, but suck it up you still own one of the most amazing cars in existence NOW. Not 2017, not 2019, but now.

 

[Eclectic]

Well said! It's surprising to me how people still defend Tesla and blame consumers for Tesla's misleading information.

My situation is a bit different. I owned a P85 at the time of the P85D reveal event. The P85 worked fine for me, but I wanted better top end performance. At the P85D reveal, Musk touted the P85D as having significantly more horsepower. So I placed the order as soon as possible after the event and figured that even though I'd take a hit on the P85 to P85D upgrade, I'd get the top end power I wanted. I took delivery of the car at the end of December 2014 and it was clear that the top end power didn't match expectations. Now, we find out the numbers Musk used at that reveal event were theoretical.

It was certainly my fault for trusting Musk and for buying a car before test driving it. I actually understand the defense that some raise that those who test drove the car knew what they were getting, without regard to what the HP number was. But for those of us who made the decision to upgrade to the P85D based on that reveal event and had some of the first deliveries, I think there's a justifiable sense of being taken for a ride (so to speak). I would not have upgraded to the P85D if the real HP numbers were given at that event, as I would have had a pretty strong hint that the top end acceleration wasn't going to have the type of improvement that the claimed 691 hp implied (and I understand that this is in part marketing hype, but when you are told there's a 50% jump in HP, it's pretty logical to expect a significant improvement in across the board performance).

Again, my fault for trusting the company to deliver what Musk was selling at that event. I could have waited for production to start before placing the order to make sure I liked what was being sold. I learned my lesson...and Tesla lost a customer for future cars (a customer who spent about $250,000 on their products in a 12 month period).

 

[ecarfan]

Nice try, but what I see is that everyone is going to continue beating this drum until they feel everyone supports their particular position.
Just a suggestion for those in this thread ... it's okay to have all these different opinions. But all opinions have been explained multiple times at this point - can't you all just sit tight with the opinion YOU hold and let others hold theirs? Doesn't hurt a single person to do that.

Bonnie, that would be way too sensible. Some people feel they have been deeply injured and it appears they are never going to stop talking about it until, well, maybe never.
In the meantime, Tesla continues to build and sell amazing cars in ever increasing numbers to people who are thrilled to be driving the future, today. And that's a good thing for a lot of reasons.

 

[freeewilly]

This argument makes no sense because all the tuning happens after the car leaves the lot. Honestly this entire thread blew up way too much. The car still PERFORMS the same as before but with a different sticker... What difference does it make. The buyers test drove the car and ultimately decided to buy it. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you purchase the car.

If you need a higher horsepower for a testosterone boost then there are bigger issues. Every ICE engine doesn't necessarily achieve their HP numbers due to so many conditions but there are no pitch forks.

Its nice that people called them out to publish more accurate figures... But giving out an HP number on paper isn't make or break, test driving the car is. That and we have drag videos against other exotics. Its still a bloody 4 door sedan smoking Ferraris and lambos. Remember that, no HP figure is changing that.

I love my MS, my MS drives the same before and after Tesla posted the updated hp. My S60 still can't beat the Hellcat, but I know P85d drivers still can, there is no change. The sun still came out from the east tomorrow.
That's not the point in my case, maybe to you, but not me. If Tesla tell the more accurate hp when they announced these models, with awesome 0-60 time, people will still buy them, there are tons of people don't even care about speed. It's a great all around car, speed is just one of the many... They lied, this time is the hp, and that's wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

they did. Are you happy?

No, I'm not. I love Tesla, I have been telling people how great the company and their car to everyone I know and to people I don't know.

Side note. I got a call from Long Beach police department a few days ago that they caught a woman that stole about 22 Tesla owners information, my local Tesla knew that they lost the package during shipping. Tesla did not contact me at all, when I reach out to them, they offers me a 1 year financial monitoring. Not even a phone call to warn me?

 

[aznt1217]

I love my MS, my MS drives the same before and after Tesla posted the updated hp. My S60 still can't beat the Hellcat, but I know P85d drivers still can, there is no change. The sun still came out from the east tomorrow.
That's not the point in my case, maybe to you, but not me. If Tesla tell the more accurate hp when they announced these models, with awesome 0-60 time, people will still buy them, there are tons of people don't even care about speed. It's a great all around car, speed is just one of the many... They lied, this time is the hp, and that's wrong.

There is no lie. It was a different metric for a different technology. Do we put what is the car capable of or do we put what its actually producing? What does actually mean?

Its a question of standards and what is the right yardstickm if we took this same logic and applied it to ALL autos, this would mean that all the automakers change their HP numbers and give me the real power in this case (fwhp, awhp, rwhp) to take everything into account.

 

[adastra]

Shame on Tesla. They lied just like VW except there is no extra pollution blow into the air. They manipulate the numbers and the number can’t be achieve by the car the sold to the customers.

Tesla should disclose the actual HP that goes to the wheels, not the maximum power that can generate from the motor(s). For example, a race team can probably tweak the civic 4 cylinder engine to 1000hp (I’m extracting) that runs on race fuel, although it’s the same engine, but Honda shouldn’t advertise Civic with 1000hp, if you know what I mean.

Do you mind citing any evidence linking multiple premature deaths to Tesla overstating horsepower, like this report? Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S. | MIT News

I can't seem to find any.