Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Andyw2100]

I think some things on this issue need some clarification, because people keep wanting to take this in a thousand different directions that have little to nothing to do with the actual problem.

Fantastic post, that really spells things out well!

This was a really valuable post because I think a lot of people that started following this thread were not the people that had been following the other threads on this subject, and wk057's post above really distilled things down, explaining our side's points quite clearly.

Thanks!

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to wk057 again."

 

[clarkbariowa]

I was going through the latest owners manual and there are HP and torque numbers listed. Had a revelation that the P85D is my car (P85 - same large rear motor) with the 85D front motor (small motor) added to it. There are literally only two motors in all of the Model S variations (large and small) / each with regular and performance output numbers. Crazy :scared:. Check out page 159 in the new owners manual (MyTesla) posted 10/28/15.

My conversions give me the following:


LARGE MOTOR - Performance: 443 ft lbs
LARGE MOTOR - Performance: 470 HP
SMALL MOTOR - Performance: 244 ft lbs
SMALL MOTOR - Performance: 258 HP


LARGE MOTOR and SMALL MOTOR - Performance (P85D) : 687 ft lbs
LARGE MOTOR and SMALL MOTOR - Performance (P85D) : 728 HP




Maximum net power* and engine speed of large motors

Base: 285 kW @ 6850 rpm

Performance: 350 kW @ 5950 rpm

Maximum net power* and engine speed of small motors

Base: 145 kW @ 5700 rpm

Performance: 193 kW @ 6100 rpm

Maximum torque of large motors

Base: 440 Nm

Performance: 600 Nm

Maximum torque of small motors

Base: 250 Nm

Performance: 330 Nm

*Tested in accordance with ECE R85

Transmission

 

[WestCoastP85D]

Thank you. Exactly.

I think some things on this issue need some clarification, because people keep wanting to take this in a thousand different directions that have little to nothing to do with the actual problem.

I think we all agree that Tesla makes some pretty awesome cars. I really like both of mine. I don't think that is in question.

The horsepower related concerns and the 0-60 time concerns (rollout vs non-rollout) are independent issues, even if they did start at the same time.

The horsepower related concerns and the range increase concerns (285 miles at 65 MPH is pretty much impossible, sorry, and the P85D does not have more range than the P85) are indepentent issues, even if they did start at the same time.

Now for this particular on-topic point...

The issue I personally have is that Tesla allowed customers to believe that the P85D produced substantially more horsepower than it actually does. The introduction of the "motor power" term was clarified by folks at Tesla at the time to be "similar to an ICE at the flywheel" to myself and others I've spoken with. Many enthusiasts also figured that this number was an "at the shaft" type number. I'm reasonably certain no one, myself included, expected 691 HP at the wheels.

Additionally, Tesla only used the "motor power" term on the website, and no where else (that I'm aware). Everywhere else, and in every conversation/interview/etc that I've had or seen with Tesla had no such qualifier. It was a 691 HP car as far as everyone was concerned. Tesla even confirmed speculation that the car would have "substantially improved high speed performance" over the P85 due to the added horsepower.

The majority of early P85D buyers, myself included, had no opportunity to test drive the vehicle prior to delivery and had few options except to trust Tesla's sales and marketing folks on the matter. Personally, I'd already purchased two Model S that met or exceeded their advertised specs, why would Tesla fudge the numbers for the P85D?

Only after more people started publicly questioning the 691 HP number did they simply remove it. No explanation, no answers to inquiries, nothing. Just remove the number and hope no one notices? I mean, if it were in fact a legitimate measure of the car's performance, why remove it?

Some time previously the website clearly advertised a coming "free over the air software update" to increase high speed performance. For completeness, this advertising was there AFTER the 3.2 to 3.1 "0"-60 improvement update (yes I put quotes around the 0 in "0"-60 when referring to the fake with-rollout times that are more like 5-60). Many, myself included, figured that this might be the update the unlocked some or all of our missing horsepower. We now know that free OTA update turned into a costly hardware update that still doesn't unlock the full 691 HP (and as of this writing still does not exist as a retrofit, paid or otherwise, in a customer's hands yet).

Then comes a cryptic blog post nearly a year later that basically admits the original power number was not a true power production number, and was more of a slap in the face, IMO, to those who know what we're talking about. Sorry, Mr. Straubel, but 1 HP is still 1 HP, and I don't care about performance at various altitudes vs ICE engines which had nothing to do with the concerns.

Now Tesla finally posts the real horsepower output of the car, 463 HP... a number that myself and others had already figured out within a reasonable margin with real world testing.

"But Tesla is great!" "Tesla is saving the world!" "OMG we need Tesla!" <-- While statements like these may (or may not) be true, it doesn't affect this particular situation.

The fact is that Tesla fudged the facts to fit the situation. At that time it appears the goal was getting as many Q4'2015 deliveries as possible, no matter what, which meant selling P85Ds like crazy. Had Tesla actually put the real specs on the specs page last year as they stand today, I would not have bought a P85D. It's still the same car. The actual specs haven't actually changed. But the *advertised* specs have changed significantly since I placed my order. Given what I know today, I would have been much happier with an 85D, or simply keeping my P85.

For completeness, let's take a look at the few major bullet points along those lines:

• Advertised in October 2014 when I placed my order
  • 691 HP (274 HP more than the P85)
  • 285 miles of range (20 miles more than the P85)
  • 0-60 in 3.2 seconds (full second faster than P85)
  • Autopilot in a few months
• Reality:
  • 463 HP (-228 HP)
  • 253 miles of range (-32 miles / -12 from the P85)
  • 0-60 in 3.5 seconds (true 0-60)
  • Autopilot released 10/15/2015 (so, +6 months best case, +8 months or more really)

People who traded up from a P85 paid a significant amount of depreciation to do so with the promise of better high speed performance thanks to 274 more horsepower, better range due to the efficiency improvements of the dual motor setup, shave a full second from 0-60, and autopilot features only to have paid that same premium for 46 horsepower, a significant range penalty, 0-60 times that actually differ by closer to a half-second due to the switch to using 1-ft rollout without telling anyone, and a year wait for autopilot.

Yes, the non-horsepower related bullet points are problems. But this thread is about the horsepower issue, so lets get back to that.

So, actual +46 HP vs advertised +274 HP (or +211 HP depending on which P85 number you feel like using). I don't know about you, but if I take a 400 HP car and add 200+ HP to it by adding minimal weight, I'm going to get some pretty dramatic improvements, and not just in 0-60 times. These are the improvements that were touted by Tesla when I was buying my P85D. Faster highway passing. Much faster top speed runs. Etc etc etc.

In reality, we received less than 20% of the increased performance we paid for, yet according to many here I'm in the wrong because I feel like Tesla cheated me and used me to boost Q4'14 sales.

I keep holding on to a little hope that Tesla is going to surprise us with something that will make us early P85D buyers have at least a little faith restored in the company... but that's probably just wishful thinking at this point. I'm honestly not 100% sure what their next move is. I'm half expecting an announcement this week of the P100D with the tag line of having "twice the power of the P85D" with Tesla comparing the newly advertised actual horsepower of the P85D with a car having two large motor's combined "motor power." Add to that a new 0-60 metric that uses some random magazine's method of testing that subtracts the first 42-ft of rollout from the time to better show the meaning of life the universe and everything in the 0-60 time to get a mind blowing 1.9 second 0-60 to plaster all over the place while they're at it. Might as well say it has a 500 mile range too. Later they'll include the note that to get that range requires the double battery capacity feature that will be available free via OTA updates in several months.

 

[WarpedOne]

So... not to distract from the primary reason for torches and pitchforks... but I can't believe no one is noticing another problem with these numbers (or is it just me, seeing things that aren't there?): If the only (power relevant) differences between a P90DL and a P85D are (1) a larger capacity battery and (2) some fuses and control software... then how the heck is the motor capacity - by itself - suddenly going from 691 to 762 "maximum" HP ?

I'm well aware the battery power will decrease as charge does... but that's the whole crux of the argument, right, that it isn't supplying enough power? So why would the fuses do anything to change the capacity of the motor?

Is there something else it (the L upgrade) does? Changes something with the rotor current or slippage (I assume it isn't a 3Ph synchronous motor, right?) to increase it? If so, doesn't that mean that you could do the same thing WITHOUT changing the fuses or increasing battery capacity?

What am I missing?

This is the right question. And it has an answer that may help somebody better understand what is going on.
The most basic thing is electric motor does not have a clue about hp.

It has two basic limitations that stem from how it is constructed:
- maximum allowable voltage - if one applies higher voltage to it, it may break insulation and short-circuit
- maximum allowable temperature - if temperature of some part rises above some limit, all hell could break loose (literally, short-circuiting, physical deformations, etc)

Those are 'first order' limits that are always there and one must not exceed them or he will have to replace the motor.
But temperature is not a 'first order' quantity, it is a statistical one describing the amount of energy or heat in some body with some mass. Same heat in larger mass results in lower end temperature.

Why is this important? Because everything than heats up, also cools down. It is connected with time and maximum cooling capabilities. In Norway model s Is rated at 66kW. Because it can continuously (1 hour) remove 66kW of heat from the motor. Cooling may be stronger and that rating results from battery going empty, but the premise still holds. There is some max heat removal capability that lowers temperature at some maximum rate.

Why is this important? Because every time the motor works, it is heating up. Temperature rises from ambient until heat added equals heat taken away by cooling. How fast will heat build up? Depends on how hard the motor works. There is electric current flowing through it that encounters some ohmic and some other resistance. Current times resistance is heat. Higher current will cause faster heat buildup and faster temperature rise. Faster but not immediate. Higher current will see shorter 'service' time than lower current. This in the end manifests with that dotted yellow line. This explains why spirited driving for some time results in power limiting.

How is this connected to hp then?

motor converts current into torque and some heat. Lower current results in low torque and low heat, higher current results in stronger torque and stronger i.e. faster heat build up i.e. temperature rise.

But hp?

HP designates how fast the energy 'flows' somewhere. Fast is also connected with movement and rotation. HP of electric motor thus depends on two things: torque and rpm. At 0 rpm there can be some current flowing and some torque output but there is still no hp because the motor is not spinning. When the motors starts to spin, hp output rises linearly with rotation rate even though current and torque stayed the same. There is constant current, constant torque, constant force at your butt, but power rises all the time, double the speed and the power doubles, triple the rotation speed and power triples. But in the butt there is still the same force you feel.

How can one increase the maximum constant torque (force in the but)?
By increasing the current through the motor.
How much time this current can flow at maximum rate?
- until input cannot supply enough input power anymore
- until heat buildup demands to ease off

Ok, say input is not at limit yet and heat has not build up too high, what is the limit in this situation?
Inverter converts battery dc supply into variable voltage and frequency supply. This means the motor does not get battery voltage but gets some low voltage depending on its rotation rate and torque demand. This low voltage can still result in huge current through the motor (thus producing huge torque). How big can this huge current be? As big as battery current and no bigger.

So, what about max hp then?

Some battery can supply some max current resulting in some max torque in some motor. You accelerate such motor to higher and higher rpm, it produces that max current all this time and hp increases linearly. With increasing rpm of the motor, its total electrical resistance also increases so to still produce constant torque, the current must also be constant and so voltage needs to go higher and higher. This is the role of the inverter, it increases the voltage as rpm rises. But it can only up the voltage until it bumps at battery input voltage. After that it cannot rise the voltage anymore, it can only increase the alternating frequency and with it makes the moor rotate faster. But the torque start to drop, because voltage is now constant. Product of rpm and torque still increases for some time and than starts to drop.

What is this maximum motor hp than? It is max power that motor could output given that maximum current input.
with stronger fuse, battery max current can be higher, maximum torque can be higher, so maximum motor output is higher.

Such scenario is a necessity in a BEV with good use of its resources. Should motors not be more powerful than battery, they would not use all the battery capabilities.

tl;dr: feel free to ignorantly bash tesla ad nauseaum.

Edit: removed some typos...

 

[Dwu0212]

It's not okay for any company to overstate their numbers. But, unfortunately, we don't live in an utopia. If you read my prior post, I said I expected Tesla to refund people's money who were mislead by the numbers: "It will be interesting to see how this "admission" will play out legally for Tesla. I suspect that people who sue for being mislead will have their vehicle bought back. That seems to be the best outcome..."

But Tesla is very important for my children, and their children's, future on this planet. So, as I've said before, I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But I am quick to admit when Tesla has a mistake and I call them out for it. I do so, however, in proportion to the good they have done or are attempting to do (even though I think we are circling the drain environmentally). That was the point of my post that you quoted, and the issue of Tesla being "criticized for overstating hp". At no time did I say it was okay to overstate the number, but I tried to put it in perspective. Unlike some of those on the other side, I can admit when Tesla has done wrong and I see no wrong in that. It will only make Tesla better in the long run. To some on the other side, including perhaps you, Tesla has done such wrong they will never buy another vehicle from them (although I find some who say this to be disingenuous). Plus, they can't give Tesla credit for anything, or this is such a wrong, that any credit earned by Tesla is not worth even mentioning.

I hope you and I are on the same page on credit due to Tesla, but somehow I doubt it.

Actually I respect your view, compare to some people on this forum who believe Tesla can do no wrong, your view will make a company better.

what I don't agree with you Is I believe tesla should be criticized for this, its not a small mistake, Tesla abused their customer's trust, loyal customers...

I'm happy to give Tesla credit when credit is due, they made a great car, and environmental friendly, but in my case it's not a choice of an ice car or model s, it's 85d or p85d and $20000 in their pocket or mine, Thats 20000 reasons not to trust Tesla's word again. It takes many good deeds to build reputation and only one bad to destroy it, that's the reality.

You are also right about I'm not buying from Tesla again, I cancelled my X reservation and ordered a Volvo XC90, see what Tesla made me do? I was helping to save the world and now I have to help kill it, lol, I'm joking, but I don't feel guilty about it, thanks to Tesla.


on a separate note, great post wk057!

 

[Denarius]

Wk057's post did sum it up perfectly. Like him I'm hoping that Tesla does something great for P85D purchasers.

 

[rns-e]

This is the right question. And it has an answer that may help somebody better understand what is going on.

The most basic thing is electric motor does not have a clue about hp.

It has two basic limitations that stem from how it is constructed:
- maximum allowable voltage - if one apllies higer voltage to it, it may break insulation and shortcircuit
- maximum allowable temperature - if temperature of some part rises above some limit, all hell could break loose (literally, shortcircuiting, phisical deformations, etc)

Those are 'first order' limits that are always there and one must not exceed them or he will have to replace the motor.
But tempersture is not a 'first order' quantity, it is a statistical one describing the amount of energy or heat in some body with some mass. Same heat in larger mass results n lower end temeprature.

Why is this important? Becase everything than heats up, also cools down. It is connected with time amd maximum cooling capabitlites. In norway model s Is rated at 66kW. Because it can continually (1 hour) remove 66kW of heat from the motor. Cooling may be stronger and that rating results from battery going empty, but the premise still holds. There is some max heat removal capability that lowers temperature at some maximum rate.

why is this important? Because everytime the motor works, it is heating up. Temperature rises from ambient until heat added equals heat taken away by cooling. How fast will heat build up? Depends on how hard the motor works. There is electric current flowing through it that accounters some ohmic and some other resistance. Curent times resistance is heat. Higher current will couse faster heat buildup and faster temperature rise. Faster but not immediate. Higher current will see shorter 'service' time than lower current. This in the end manfests with that dotted yellow line. This explaines why spirited driving for some time results in power limiting.

how is this connected to hp then?

motor converts current into torque and some heat. Lower current results in low torque and low heat, higher current results in stronger torque and stronger ie faster heat build up i.e. temperature rise.

but hp?

HP designates how fast the energy 'flows' somewhere. Fast is also connected with movement and rotation. HP of electrc motor thus depends on two things: torque and rpm. At 0 rpm there can be some current flowing and some torque output but there is still no hp because te motor is not spining. When the motors starts to spin, hp output risis linearly with rotation rate even though current snd torque stayed the same. There is constant current, constant torque, constant force at your butt, but power rises all the time, double the speed, the power doubles, triple the rotation speed, power trpels. But still the same force you feel in the butt.

how can one increase the maximum constant torque (force in the but)?
by increasing the current through the motor.
how much time this current can flow at maximum rate?
- until input cannot suply enough input power anymore
- until heat buildup demands to ease off

Ok, say input is not at limit yet and heat has not build up too high, what is the limit in this situation?
Inverter converts baterry dc suply into variable voltage and frequency suply. This means the motor does not get battery voltage but gets some low voltage depending on its rotation rate and torque demand. This low voltage can still result in huge current through the motor (thus producing huge torque). How big can this huge current be? As big as batery current and no bigger.

so, what about max hp then?
Some baterry can suplly some max current resulting in some max torque in some motor. You accelerate such motor to higher and higher rpm, it produces that max current all this time and hp increases linearly. With increasing rpm of the motor, its total electrical resistance also increases so to still produce constant torque, the current must also be constant and sovoltage needs togo higher and higher. This is the rle of the inverter, it increases the voltage as rpm rises. But it can only up thevoltage until itbumps at baterry input voltage. After that it cannot rise the voltage anymore, itcan only increase the alternating frequence and with it makes the moor rotate faster. But the torque start to drop,becase voltage is now constant. Product of rpm and torque still increases for some tim and than starts to rop.

what is this maximum motor hp than? It is max power that motor could output givent that maximum current input.
with stronger fuse, battery max current can be higehr, maximum torque can behigher, so maximum motor output is higher.

Such scenario is a necessity in a bev with good use of its resources. Should motors not be more powerfull than baterry, they would not use all the batery capabilites.

tl;dr: feel free to ignorantly bash tesla ad nauseaum.

Thank you for the explanation.

It's still a car no matter what engine or motor used to power it.

Falcon doors or normal doors, they still need to be able open and close, in order to fulfill their purpose. If the Falcon doors only open half, it makes no difference explaining the complex structure of the doors, because they still do not deliver as promised.

If you use HP in advertising, then deliver HP and don't come back when people find out you did not deliver and try to explain why HP is irrelevant.

 

[WarpedOne]

*motor power*

Does P85D under common speeds i.e. under speed limit behave more like it had 500 max HP or more like it had 691 max HP?
Under common speeds it behaves like it had 691 max HP because at lower speeds it outputs the torque that suffices for 691 HP if you allow it to rotate fast enough (i.e supply enough voltage to sustain that maximum current). P85D is not battery power limit per see, but battery voltage limited. Yes, current times voltage is power but the things the ends up limiting performance is motor voltage that hits battery voltage.

Yes, there are ways to better describe its characteristics, but they are all much less common and known. And there are this brakets designated with HP or kW that are mandatory fields one must fill.

Calling P85D a 470HP car is much bigger lie than calling it 691 motor power HP car because one regularly experiences the second and only seldomly when going way above legal speeds, he experiences the first.
Especially in the light of 85D with same battery and different motor/controller that under lower speeds deliver less torque and less power with same battery?

Is it really that hard to understand or is crusading against evildoers so satisfactory?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thank you for the explanation.

It's still a car no matter what engine or motor used to power it.

Falcon doors or normal doors, they still need to be able open and close, in order to fulfill their purpose. If the Falcon doors only open half, it makes no difference explaining the complex structure of the doors, because they still do not deliver as promised.

If you use HP in advertising, then deliver HP and don't come back when people find out you did not deliver and try to explain why HP is irrelevant.

Except that is not what they did. They advertised the HP of the motor/inverter combo. The motor/inverters as installed in the car are configured to deliver 691hp. There was a lot of back and forth about ICE equivalencies, but the fact of the matter is that if the motors were not 691hp rated, the P85D would not have the performance it has today.

 

[rns-e]

Except that is not what they did. They advertised the HP of the motor/inverter combo. The motor/inverters as installed in the car are configured to deliver 691hp. There was a lot of back and forth about ICE equivalencies, but the fact of the matter is that if the motors were not 691hp rated, the P85D would not have the performance it has today.

It was Tesla that introduced the HP, I did not put it on their website ...

The whole thing is like a chain, which is not stronger than its weakest link, and when it comes to the P85D, the battery is the weakest link. Selling a product based on the specifications of the strongest link, does not magically make the weakest link stronger - no matter how you word it, sorry :-(

 

[lolachampcar]

WK's thinking is accurate and logical as always. That was a very good summary of what has happened from his vantage point.

What I try to understand is why things have happened as they have. It is only through understanding why that you can properly correct things for the future.

There are two extremes-
Musk is a lier or he was not smart enough to know the battery limited available power. I simply can not accept either of these so why then did this all happen?

As I've stated elsewhere, I believe Elon had to pitch the P85D in such a way that non-BeV types could understand just how quick (not fast, but quick) the car really is. As others have done, they likely plugged in the weight and 1/4 mile times into the ole ICE performance estimator and came up with this 700 ish number. The European regs gave them a loop hole (or maybe required them) way to quote these high hp numbers in the form of combined Motor HP. Elon had his goal and now had a mechanism to achieve it so off the company went with the 700 ish HP mantra.

Typical with past performance, Tesla also had the whole ludicrous thing in the works. I still think it was supposed to be a free OTA upgrade but the need for press possibly increased by the beginnings of the HP backlash caused a premature tweet about the update. The reality of Ludicrous was that it required hardware to pull off and thus the P85DL upgrade was born. It is also likely that the full reality of Ludicrous in the P90DL required some number of miles in the field with a lesser variant before it could be rolled out to production cars. This would be the production P90DL versus the MotorTrend P90DL disparity.

I'm bringing all this up not because I want to excuse Tesla for wrong doing. I'm not interested in examining wrong doing for wrong doing's sake. That is a moral judgement for me and thus something I am much less likely to share on a forum. My interest here is to put myself in Elon's shoes and ask what I would have done.

I can not pitch the P85D on battery horsepower alone. It will not be enough to convey the car's performance.
If I start talking about the details of reality, I'll loose people's attention.
I guess my approach would have been to formulate a way to say "This car is super bad fast like a 700 hp sports car in all legal speed ranges in the US but, because of the battery technology, can not perform like that at speeds over XYZ." That would be a tough one to wrap up into quotable sound bites for the launch but the alternative is what we have today and the subsequent damage to credibility moving forward.

As for the early announcements followed by the reality of delivering, that is really tough for me. I've been in the position of trying to keep interest and momentum up in a start up environment. It is a constant grasping at straws looking for any little thing that helps keep the process moving forward. In Tesla's case, there is a price to be paid for things like the Ludicrous hype versus reality debacle but I think I would likely err on the side of Elon's I may not deliver on time but I always deliver approach.

 

[WestCoastP85D]

But but that's not what Tesla did. They willingly hid/did not disclose/did not mention/failed to explain the 463hp number. Again, read the purchase threads from Jan and Feb. Everyone thought this was a 691hp car -- and that's what we purchased (except we didn't).

.... Waiting for Tesla's next move here. This may be my last Tesla if they do nothing.

*motor power*

Does P85D under common speeds i.e. under speed limit behave more like it had 500 max HP or more like it had 691 max HP?
Under common speeds it behaves like it had 691 max HP because at lower speeds it outputs the torque that suffices for 691 HP if you allow it to rotate fast enough (i.e supply enough voltage to sustain that maximum current). P85D is not battery power limit per see, but battery voltage limited. Yes, current times voltage is power but the things the ends up limiting performance is motor voltage that hits battery voltage.

Yes, there are ways to better describe its characteristics, but they are all much less common and known. And there are this brakets designated with HP or kW that are mandatory fields one must fill.

Calling P85D a 470HP car is much bigger lie than calling it 691 motor power HP car because one regularly experiences the second and only seldomly when going way above legal speeds, he experiences the first.
Especially in the light of 85D with same battery and different motor/controller that under lower speeds deliver less torque and less power with same battery?

Is it really that hard to understand or is crusading against evildoers so satisfactory?

 

[rns-e]

WK's thinking is accurate and logical as always. That was a very good summary of what has happened from his vantage point.

What I try to understand is why things have happened as they have. It is only through understanding why that you can properly correct things for the future.

There are two extremes-
Musk is a lier or he was not smart enough to know the battery limited available power. I simply can not accept either of these so why then did this all happen?

As I've stated elsewhere, I believe Elon had to pitch the P85D in such a way that non-BeV types could understand just how quick (not fast, but quick) the car really is. As others have done, they likely plugged in the weight and 1/4 mile times into the ole ICE performance estimator and came up with this 700 ish number. The European regs gave them a loop hole (or maybe required them) way to quote these high hp numbers in the form of combined Motor HP. Elon had his goal and now had a mechanism to achieve it so off the company went with the 700 ish HP mantra.

Typical with past performance, Tesla also had the whole ludicrous thing in the works. I still think it was supposed to be a free OTA upgrade but the need for press possibly increased by the beginnings of the HP backlash caused a premature tweet about the update. The reality of Ludicrous was that it required hardware to pull off and thus the P85DL upgrade was born. It is also likely that the full reality of Ludicrous in the P90DL required some number of miles in the field with a lesser variant before it could be rolled out to production cars. This would be the production P90DL versus the MotorTrend P90DL disparity.

I'm bringing all this up not because I want to excuse Tesla for wrong doing. I'm not interested in examining wrong doing for wrong doing's sake. That is a moral judgement for me and thus something I am much less likely to share on a forum. My interest here is to put myself in Elon's shoes and ask what I would have done.

I can not pitch the P85D on battery horsepower alone. It will not be enough to convey the car's performance.
If I start talking about the details of reality, I'll loose people's attention.
I guess my approach would have been to formulate a way to say "This car is super bad fast like a 700 hp sports car in all legal speed ranges in the US but, because of the battery technology, can not perform like that at speeds over XYZ." That would be a tough one to wrap up into quotable sound bites for the launch but the alternative is what we have today and the subsequent damage to credibility moving forward.

As for the early announcements followed by the reality of delivering, that is really tough for me. I've been in the position of trying to keep interest and momentum up in a start up environment. It is a constant grasping at straws looking for any little thing that helps keep the process moving forward. In Tesla's case, there is a price to be paid for things like the Ludicrous hype versus reality debacle but I think I would likely err on the side of Elon's I may not deliver on time but I always deliver approach.

I appreciate that you are trying to paint a picture of how we got to where we are at today. There is just one thing, Elon could just mentioned one (1) number and that would have been more than enough to sell the car: 0-60 mph in 3.5s - that would have told the whole story about how quick it is. If he wanted to elaborate further on that number he could have mentioned the 700is torque. You do not need 700 hp to tell that story. Nowhere does it say you have to advertise hp.

And the battery does not have hp (again a mistake from Tesla) it has energy the same way gasoline has energy.

 

[Gerasimental]

And the battery does not have hp (again a mistake from Tesla) it has energy the same way gasoline has energy.

Batteries have a limit to how quickly energy can be drawn from them - a power limit. This is usually proportional to the battery energy capacity.

Maybe you got batteries confused with capacitors.

 

[kennybobby]

One of the amazing secret properties of electric machines is that for brief periods of time (6-12 secs) a motor can be commanded to massively over-drive the normal continuous-duty specs, e.g. by a factor of 10, without damage. Few people or companies realize this, but TM has and uses it to full effect in their cars--awesome engineering.

i think EM wanted to build an electric car that could meet or beat the 0-60 performance of his McLaren F1, and do it for 1/10th the cost.

 

[MuppetOwl]

I did get 10% cheaper insurance now after the new correct hp information

 

[sillydriver]

Good post, WK

You point out four areas of over promising / over selling

1) HP figures
2) range
3) acceleration
4) time to new feature (autopilot) release

but there is a fifth

5) promised services -- i.e. free valet pick-up

Funny how things matter differently to different customers. In my case I am arguably an apologist for Tesla when it comes to (1). (4) doesn't bother me at all: late software when you're trying to do amazing things is just par for the course. Likewise if they eventually deliver (3) that's okay. I also give them huge credit for offering hardware upgrades to P85D owners. And also, my butt dyno has always been thrilled by their acceleration off the line.

(2) bothers me. I keep the meter on the dash on percentage charge rather than their artificial range figure. That way it is easy to correlate the % charge drop over the course of a drive v. the metered Kwh used. After doing this carefully (tracking in a spreadsheet) my 85 pack gives me 73 or fewer total Kwh from 100% to 0%. I hear others get 76, but never 85. At 320 wh/mi consumed in the real world on my long term trip odometer, that's a 228 mile range, hugely different from the originally promised 285 miles. This to me, and particularly the fact we all get battery Kw-hours in the 70s, not 85 as marketed, is a much bigger scandal than horsepower. Why? Because range is a weak point of the car vs. ICE cars, and that weak point is even weaker, while performance is a strong point that is still very strong even if overstated.

Finally, (5) is not good. When I have my LTE upgrade done soon they will charge me $3/mile to pick up the car and take it 35 miles to Tyson's, even though the original story way back when was that this would be free. To me this is also more of a scandal than HP ratings, although I admit this is really a first-world complaint about a first-world problem.

But with all this said, I'm still a very satisfied owner of a great, world-changing car. :smile:

 

[WarpedOne]

Everyone thought this was a 691hp car

This *everyone* does not include me.

 

[lolachampcar]

me either.... Kinda knew the battery was the weak link.

 

[tomas]

It appears we need a new number. Laws and convention require metrics like HP and MPG that are no longer sufficient measures of performance. If car was pitched with actual description of how it achieves performance it would not be succinct and also sound like snake oil to most. Not excusing 691 but seeking a better metric that is as succinct.