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Subjective Question: Minimum Annual Salary to Buy Perf 85kWh w/options

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Years ago, I would look at beautiful multi-million dollar homes and wonder how much income would be required to purchase such a home. Then it hit me - most folks don't purchase a million dollar home based on income. Most folks use the cash (equity) from the sale of a previous (expensive) home, along with a modest loan. Therefore, the loan that many people have on the average million dollar home is somewhat the same as the loan someone might have on a $500K home (maybe a $400K loan).

Likewise with a Model S purchase. I suspect a small percentage of Model S buyers will just write a check. However, many will sell a valuable (paid off) 2 to 4 year old car, for $30K - $40K, and either finance the rest, or write a check for the rest (or some combination thereof). Anyone who is putting $10K down on a $80K car is living beyond their means.
 
DavidM--Agree with your comments, with the possible exception that someone may choose to tactically take out a large loan strictly as a rate-driven cost of funds decision, not as a needs-based financing decision. I think at the end of the day if a person is stretching to buy this car (or a particular version of it), and putting himself in a financially vulnerable position as a result, he shouldn't buy the car. Everyone should be able to make this decision for him/herself. There's no magic formula.
 
Ok, I'm finaling going to chime in.

I feel simlar to the OPs for this and the "OK d, so there is one really poor person buing this car" thread. Mainly I feel this way based on my age (26), and the fact that I have only purchased one car in the past for 14k, and my wife bought a used one for a couple thousand. That being said, there is a lot more to think about. This decision is entirely situation dependent, and each person is on their own.

I realize our income is well above what some people are saying is necessary to purchase the fully loaded car, while it is slightly less than what others are saying is necessary. But a big part of this decision is that you only live once.

If you have a positive cash flow, you can (like we are) save up over the period you are waiting for a down payment. We have a house we've put money into for the last year, and that is where all of our cash flow is going. But by pushing the last couple of major projects off until we have to pay for the car, we are going to create a down payment. At that time, we will have to look at the loan options available. If the loan options are for a large enough value at a low enough interest rate, we may reduce our down payment so we can utilize some of that money towards the projects in our house (and enjoy them before we are forced to move for our jobs and rent our house). Personally, I'm fine with paying a few thousand extra in interest if I feel the car is worth it to me (not in resale value), since first and foremost I am buying it to drive it. In our case, if we had to finance it all, we could pay the payments entirely with a pay raise we receive in the spring. This would allow us not to change our current habits, yet still pay for the car. (My enter key stopped working or something, so I'm going to continue in a second post rather than continue to make this paragraph a novel).

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Also, your tax situation could change the cost of the car dramatically. For us, we are just above the cut off (in the non-bush tax cuts) from 15 and 28% taxes. Depending on which tax things congress cuts, we might be able to go below the cutoff for the 15% by deducting the sales tax of the car (if congress doesn't nix it). That would mean that purchasing the car might save us $8,700 in taxes on top of the $7500 credit. Also for the full $7500 credit (assuming no investments/mortgage/other deductions), an individual has to have a $53,800 taxable income and a married couple filing jointly would need to have $57,600. This is based on $50,000*.15=7500 and the individual personal exemption is $3,800 per person. Bottom line, everyones situation is different, there might be other ways the car pays for itself, and if you don't understand your own taxes and the proposed changes in congress GET INFORMED. Our taxable income (between 60-80k) could see a significant change in tax. We could go from about 8k/year in taxes to 28k in taxes/year depending on what changes congress makes (to be fair, i should state our taxable income could increase to nearly 100k with certain changes to deductions).
 
Not sure where you get those numbers.

Avg household income is about $50k - – USATODAY.com.

household income is a figure that adds up the income of everyone in the house. these days, both parents are working more often than not, so the $25k average individual is $50k combined.

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i find these financial justification threads funny. i wonder if the same thing happens on BMW or Mercedes forums? probably not.

here's the deal... there is absolutely no way to justify the purchase of this car. it is a luxury item, an absolute non-necessity. plenty of cars will get you from point A to B for a fraction of what the Tesla cost. it is a colossal waste of money for ANYONE. this includes me, who will be stroking a check for it. i don't care if you have $3,000 in the bank, or $3 million.

i really get peeved with the whole "YOLO" argument (you only live once). that's right, you only live once, so don't F up your whole future by financially crippling yourself when you are 25 years old to pay for a luxury car that YOU DO NOT NEED. the entire country was going YOLO for the past decade and it resulted in the financial crisis of 2008. how quickly we forget.
 
i really get peeved with the whole "YOLO" argument (you only live once). that's right, you only live once, so don't F up your whole future by financially crippling yourself when you are 25 years old to pay for a luxury car that YOU DO NOT NEED. the entire country was going YOLO for the past decade and it resulted in the financial crisis of 2008. how quickly we forget.

While I fundamentally agree with most of what you've said here, I do think the YOLO argument does enter into decisions like this, it's just a matter of how much weight YOLO should receive in the decision process. And given that you're buying a Model S and that, as you've stated, nobody NEEDS anything more than a car to get you from A to B, what OTHER than YOLO is your reason?
 
DavidM--Agree with your comments, with the possible exception that someone may choose to tactically take out a large loan strictly as a rate-driven cost of funds decision, not as a needs-based financing decision. I think at the end of the day if a person is stretching to buy this car (or a particular version of it), and putting himself in a financially vulnerable position as a result, he shouldn't buy the car. Everyone should be able to make this decision for him/herself. There's no magic formula.

Well, I'm an old school finance guy. So I get confused when you consider taking a large loan (tactically) to finance a depreciating asset. I guess if you had $80K sitting in a money market account (earning zip), and this fabulous safe investment comes along that pays a guaranteed 10%, while at the same time, you could borrow the $80K on a home equity loan for 4%, it might make sense. But if you know something that pays a guaranteed 10%, let me know, because I want to jump on that.
 
Being an old school finance guy myself, I look at it this way: I could pay off my mortgage, but I don't. Why? Because 3 3/8% interest on a 30 year loan, before considering the interest deduction, is cheap money. I'd rather carry the loan and invest the capital. I see this as no different, except for the deductibility. Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I meant by the word "tactically". Hopefully rorystewart has figured out what he's going to do by now!!
 
Being an old school finance guy myself, I look at it this way: I could pay off my mortgage, but I don't. Why? Because 3 3/8% interest on a 30 year loan, before considering the interest deduction, is cheap money.

Yeah, I can't believe how low interest rates are on mortgages. However, the homes on both sides of me are empty because the owners got in over their head. I'm sure they did the math, but then life threw them a curve ball. If you own something, then nobody can take it away from you.

Rorystewart - If he's seriously considering financing the whole thing, I might advise him to save up over the next 2 1/2 years and be first in line for the Gen III. Even with an upgraded battery in Gen III, he would still come in below a base Model S.
 
household income is a figure that adds up the income of everyone in the house. these days, both parents are working more often than not, so the $25k average individual is $50k combined.

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Yes but the households don't usually buy two new cars at the same time. They alternate. (wife gets the new one this time, husband next...) So you're back to typical household spending half or less of their annual income on a new car.

Nobody has to be average, but I'm pretty sure the OP and many others want to know how much people typically spend on a new car. Personally I would never spend that much of my income on a car,(and I fancy myself a car guy), but luckily our household income is many times a loaded S.
 
Well, I'm an old school finance guy. So I get confused when you consider taking a large loan (tactically) to finance a depreciating asset. I guess if you had $80K sitting in a money market account (earning zip), and this fabulous safe investment comes along that pays a guaranteed 10%, while at the same time, you could borrow the $80K on a home equity loan for 4%, it might make sense. But if you know something that pays a guaranteed 10%, let me know, because I want to jump on that.
It's not about return, it's about liquidity. I can easily borrow to finance part of a new car, and I have the leisure to shop around and find good rates. If instead I've liquidated various assets to buy the car, I've reduced my flexibility in responding to unforeseen financial curveballs. I don't think there's "free money" around; otherwise I would take out a home equity loan and invest it in that asset. But I do worry about running my liquidity too low.
 
@rorystewart--My final thoughts on the subject. Debt is not by definition evil. But people get in trouble when they don't use it prudently and conservatively. If you're taking out a big loan to buy a car that you know you really can't afford, and you're putting yourself in a financially vulnerable position to do so, then don't do it. Only you know the answer to that based on your income and expenses. And Robert.Boston is correct--liquidity needs to play a role in this decision. You can own your house outright, but if you can't pay the real estate taxes. . .
 
This is not an easy question. But I have one suggestion for those who are trying to stretch their money as far as possible - make a budget projecting costs and income a few years into the future. It should be as realistic as possible, if not pessimistic.

This is what I do, so I know which bills are due to be paid in August 2014, or whenever, and I have some idea about their size, because I've been doing this for several years, which means I have a fairly good statistical basis. When you maintain full control over your finances, you end up being able to do great things.

Now, for my sake, I know that if I want to, I can buy a fully loaded Model S. But that is not how I prioritize it, because if I did buy a Model S, I wouldn't have enough money to build my own house. I know this because I have projected the costs of both options, and they are incompatible at this current point in time. This is perhaps not surprising when one considers my income (around $130k this year, but more normally around $100k), and the size of the project I am committed to. The house will probably cost $750k-$1M, of which $250k will be equity. When the house is finished it'll be 8 years since I graduated college, at which point I started out with $30,000 in student loans and no job experience. And I haven't had any help from parents or the like.

The impact of being in control of one's finances simply can't be overstated.
 
Yes, differing definition of asset. Bank will consider your primary home an asset. Some people do not: Rich Dad Poor Dad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (see Definition of assets)

His definition of assets and liabilities are somewhat simplistic, and are written as such: "During hard times assets feed you, and liabilities eat you". Kiyosaki was indicating that liabilities are, by definition: "anything that takes money out of your pocket"; while assets, are "properties that bring money into your pocket."
So what do you call something that has intrinsic value but doesn't "put money in your pocket"? Not an asset? Never heard of such nonsense until now.
 
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i find these financial justification threads funny. i wonder if the same thing happens on BMW or Mercedes forums? probably not. of cars will get you from point A to B for a fraction of what the Tesla cost. it is a colossal waste .. .

i really get peeved with the whole "YOLO" argument (you only live once). that's right, you only live once, so don't F up your whole future by financially crippling yourself when you are 25 years old to pay for a luxury car that YOU DO NOT NEED.....

Don't forget that a car has an emotional aspect for many people and that and electric car and it's statement for some of who they are and what they believe. Planet saving, war ending, US supporting is very important. Yes they might buy a Volt or Spark (even a US built Leaf) but they might also just believe Tesla (not BMW or Mercedes you mentioned) is doing it best and right (and may also have stock) so they are supporting a company that may OLO (only live once) in our lifetime.
 
I realize I may be being overly conservative, but I'm still apprehensive about making the purchase. Yes, I love the car. And my current ride has ~90k miles on it, so I'm due for an upgrade in the next 1-3 years. I have a short commute and rarely go for long drives, the gas savings are modest, so I'm thinking about the 40Kwh pack. A $60k (all-in) car is surely not unreasonable with a >$400k income and a house that's halfway paid off (in my early 40s), but I've saved very little for my young kids' 3 colleges and the numbers for 4-yr privates are shocking. And if I lost my job, it's not easily replaced (I'm in an industry that lives financing-to-financing). Am I being ridiculously conservative here or are early adopters truly that much more aggressive about buying these expensive cars? I'm not sure I gain much waiting by a year or more for another bonus b/c the novelty of being the first guy with a Tesla isn't what's "driving" my purchase. I'm trying to avoid the temptation of buying it b/c it's cool, since it's a helluva price tag for that aspect and I shouldn't care about that anyway. I dreaded receiving the "It's Time..." email and now that it's here, I'm just not sure. I enjoy the insight on this board, so maybe someone will talk me in (or out!) of this. Cheers!