Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Battpower]

So Tesla think they can....

make changes to the vehicles manufactured or sold by Tesla and the applicable warranties at any time without incurring any obligation to make the same or similar payments or changes to vehicles previously manufactured or sold or applicable warranties, including this limited new vehicle warranty.

What are they actually saying here?

"manufactured or sold by Tesla" - don't think Tesla sell non-Tesla vehicles, and only Tesla make them, so 'vehicles made my Tesla'.....

So, Tesla can:

"... make changes to the vehicles..... and the applicable warranties at any time without any obligation to make the same or similar [? payments? or] changes to vehicles previously manufactured or [sold by Tesla or] applicable warranties......"

That doesn't make sense, does it? It seems to be saying something more along the lines that if they make a change to vehicle specs (for new vehicles one would assume) or changes to warranty terms (not sure what 'payments' they are referring to), they are not obliged to make similar changes to existing vehicles or warranties.

Assuming it's a given they can't downgrade owners' cars (well, at least they shouldn't!) then only interpretation is that old cars don't get promise of new car features. Not aware of any broad improvement of warranty terms. In fact more the opposite, so certainly who wants the newer warranties over the older ones?

But with car spec's, are they trying to argue that once you have been 'upgraded' you have no right to demand return to previous spec? May be I'm over thinking again or missing the obvious, but it's hard to see how their response relates to the original request.

Or are they saying :

'you have whatever you purchased along with all the characteristics that go with it. We have no obligation to give you newer car characteristics. You are stuck with whatever you have!'

That approach would be trying to ignore the whole issue that they broke / downgraded your car with a software update and you just want back what they took.

Of course Tesla want to avoid that point of view, so their reply does just that maybe.

 

[Florian500]

I wonder if this reply is specifically for your location?

In the German version applicable at the time of purchase there is a small but important addition which roughly translates to "if local laws allow us". At least in Germany we have laws against "unexpected" or "unusually surprising" rules in those guarantee agreements in favor of the customer. Of course the law is quite vague, so this might have to go to court. Luckily, there's also the concept of "Legal protection insurance" and a lot of suing already going on.

 

[Battpower]

"if local laws allow us"

I think this idea is common in many legislatures. 'within the extent of applicable laws' or 'unless specifically prohibited by local laws'.

I'm more confused at the moment by was Tesla's reply is actually trying to say.

 

[Droschke]

I just received the 2nd certified letter from Tesla, in reply to my 2nd certified letter to them (demanding to have the charging speed adjusted to the pre-2019-16-x-software values):

We refer to your letter of xx.yy.2020 and would like to inform you about the following:

We are pleased to provide you with an extract from our warranty conditions under "Changes and waivers" (page 12):

"Tesla reserves the right to (...) make changes to the vehicles manufactured or sold by Tesla and the applicable warranties at any time without incurring any obligation to make the same or similar payments or changes to vehicles previously manufactured or sold by Tesla or applicable warranties, including this limited new vehicle warranty.

This provision has been in effect since 2012, accordingly at the time of sale of your vehicle, and has not changed since then. This also applies to the wear and tear caused by the use of the battery and its performance.

In addition, failure to install the available updates invalidates the warranty (page 10).

Based on our guidelines and conditions, we cannot meet your request.

Are they quoting those terms from the warranty documents applicable to your car at the time of purchase?

On Edit:
This is the entire section in my 2015 Model S85 warranty document (the U.S. Version):

"Modifications and Waivers
No person or entity, including, but not limited to, a Tesla employee or authorized representative,
can modify or waive any part of this New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Tesla may occasionally offer
to pay a portion or all of the cost of certain repairs that are no longer covered by this New
Vehicle Limited Warranty for specific vehicle models, which some states may refer to as
“adjustment programs.” In such circumstances, Tesla will notify all known registered owners of
affected vehicles. You may also inquire to Tesla directly regarding the applicability of such
programs, if any, to your vehicle. Tesla may also occasionally offer to pay a portion or all of the
cost of certain vehicle repairs that are no longer covered by this New Vehicle Limited Warranty
on an ad hoc case-by-case basis. Tesla reserves the right to do the above and to make changes to
vehicles manufactured or sold by Tesla and the applicable warranties, at any time, without
incurring any obligation to make the same or similar payment or changes for vehicles Tesla
previously manufactured or sold, or applicable warranties including this New Vehicle Limited
Warranty. Nothing herein shall imply that any Tesla vehicle is free of defects."

 

[Battpower]

In addition, failure to install the available updates invalidates the warranty (page 10).

That's interesting too.

Haven't heard that point discussed. In fact, I thought the opposite understanding was prevalent. ie That no statement had been made by Tesla that running with previous software was detrimental (from a safety perspective).

Now I'm going to have to re-read my wty docs. to see if I am obliged to accept whatever OTA updates I'm sent, or what the time frame is from being sent an update that I must install it to avoid messing up wty.

And who's responsibility is it to know what updates should be installed on a particular spec car, especially if some BMS firmware updates happen / can happen completely hidden.

Are there similar clauses in US wty docs?

 

[Chaserr]

The warranty exclusion dependent on updates is new, added post Batterygate and completely unenforceable. In order for Tesla to invalidate warranty they need to prove you caused damage that would exculde warranty. If not updating is used as their justification to exclude warranty they would have to claim a previous update they had provided is the actual cause of the damages. It's a catch-22 that is only there to scare people into accepting updates so they can continue to push things like batterygate to most cars without following safety laws.

 

[MP3Mike]

Now I'm going to have to re-read my wty docs. to see if I am obliged to accept whatever OTA updates I'm sent, or what the time frame is from being sent an update that I must install it to avoid messing up wty.

And who's responsibility is it to know what updates should be installed on a particular spec car, especially if some BMS firmware updates happen / can happen completely hidden.

Are there similar clauses in US wty docs?

The required OTA statement isn't in the old warranty documents that should apply to the capped cars. But yes it is in the US warranty now.

And it isn't a matter which updates should be installed, it says you have to install any update that is offered to you to keep your warranty valid. (Again this doesn't apply to the older cars, it was a change to the warranty at some point.)

And as far as the "Tesla can make any change" statement in the warranty, the way I read it that is more about they can change the design and improve things, but that isn't admitting that there is a defect that would require them to offer the changed part to everyone. (An example of this is the control arms that break, they have changed them such that they shouldn't break but the warranty states that doesn't mean it was a defect and they have to provide the newer control arms to everyone.) I don't think that statement applies to batterygate, but I'm not a lawyer...

 

[Droschke]

That's interesting too.

Haven't heard that point discussed. In fact, I thought the opposite understanding was prevalent. ie That no statement had been made by Tesla that running with previous software was detrimental (from a safety perspective).

Now I'm going to have to re-read my wty docs. to see if I am obliged to accept whatever OTA updates I'm sent, or what the time frame is from being sent an update that I must install it to avoid messing up wty.

And who's responsibility is it to know what updates should be installed on a particular spec car, especially if some BMS firmware updates happen / can happen completely hidden.

Are there similar clauses in US wty docs?

I've posted this before in this thread, more than once. My warranty info handed to me in form of paper document (a booklet) at the time of purchasing my car in Feb. 2015 matches word-by-word with the same PDF still posted at Tesla website (the warranty section is documented toward the end):

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/Model-S-Quick-Start-Guide.pdf

On Edit:
Recommendation: folks, please download and save before they decide to remove it

 

[Battpower]

But yes it is in the US warranty now.

Was that change at the same time the battery warranty changed early (Jan) 2020?

 

[MP3Mike]

Was that change at the same time the battery warranty changed early (Jan) 2020?

No I think it was much earlier than that.

 

[mvotb]

I just received the 2nd certified letter from Tesla, in reply to my 2nd certified letter to them (demanding to have the charging speed adjusted to the pre-2019-16-x-software values):

We refer to your letter of xx.yy.2020 and would like to inform you about the following:

We are pleased to provide you with an extract from our warranty conditions under "Changes and waivers" (page 12):

"Tesla reserves the right to (...) make changes to the vehicles manufactured or sold by Tesla and the applicable warranties at any time without incurring any obligation to make the same or similar payments or changes to vehicles previously manufactured or sold by Tesla or applicable warranties, including this limited new vehicle warranty.

This provision has been in effect since 2012, accordingly at the time of sale of your vehicle, and has not changed since then. This also applies to the wear and tear caused by the use of the battery and its performance.

In addition, failure to install the available updates invalidates the warranty (page 10).

Based on our guidelines and conditions, we cannot meet your request.

Total Tesla Bullshit. Translation= Read these irrelevant words, that have noting to do with your request, and please go away. I agree with Batt and Mike, that these words refer to not having to make changes on existing vehicles, that they make on vehicles going forward.

I would write them back and say

Thank you for providing some wording, in the warranty, which is of course, totally irrelevant to my request. Is Tesla claiming that there is something in this wording that allows them to modify my vehicles performance, unilaterally, without my permission? If so, please underline that wording, because I am not finding that agreement anywhere.

Did Tesla make any OTA modifications that changed the way my car supercharges? A simple yes or no will be sufficient. My request is that you reverse these changes, so that I can, once again, use my car, for the purpose it was purchased.

 

[Battpower]

Read these irrelevant words, that have nothing to do with your request,.....

Yup, that's how it looked to me. And it seems quite a common approach too with other issues.

 

[Chaserr]

Was that change at the same time the battery warranty changed early (Jan) 2020?

yes. That warranty adjustment added language requiring updates and excusing software capacity reduction at the same time. They softened the language but it was pretty heavy handed batterygate excuse making even to people with cars that shouldn't be part of the recall. It seemed like they were planning to make batterygate a permanent and allowable condition back then. The question is do they want to steal from every Tesla ever made or just point back at some point and say "See? It's been there all along!" They were spreading fear about not-updated cars losing music streaming unless they update around that time too, but they werent telling the truth. I think Tesla realized downgrades are a terrific reason to skip upgrading and they saw the numbers increase since 2019.16, and fear was the next best excuse someone came up with to convince people to update that wasn't the recall they know they still need to issue.

 

[mymagiccarpet]

I just received the 2nd certified letter from Tesla, in reply to my 2nd certified letter to them (demanding to have the charging speed adjusted to the pre-2019-16-x-software values):

We refer to your letter of xx.yy.2020 and would like to inform you about the following:

We are pleased to provide you with an extract from our warranty conditions under "Changes and waivers" (page 12):

"Tesla reserves the right to (...) make changes to the vehicles manufactured or sold by Tesla and the applicable warranties at any time without incurring any obligation to make the same or similar payments or changes to vehicles previously manufactured or sold by Tesla or applicable warranties, including this limited new vehicle warranty.

This provision has been in effect since 2012, accordingly at the time of sale of your vehicle, and has not changed since then. This also applies to the wear and tear caused by the use of the battery and its performance.

In addition, failure to install the available updates invalidates the warranty (page 10).

Based on our guidelines and conditions, we cannot meet your request.

Thanks for posting. Interesting and on the second read, i too think it's irrelevant to what you are asking them for.
It pretty much spells out, like others have said, that they are not obligated to make any changes to the vehicles sold pre-change. Would be relevant if they in fact increased charging speed on new car and are saying we do not need to do the same to your car b/c it's delivered pre-change, but that is not what you are asking, so it's irrelevant. But I can see that that's the game they are playing.
In other words, your speed will downgrade over time, and no, we will not give you faster speed like on newer cars - not what you are asking for.

Where did you send this to? Generic to Tesla office, or particular department/person?

 

[mymagiccarpet]

Yup, that's how it looked to me. And it seems quite a common approach too with other issues.

every service visit seems to end like this nowadays. I took mine in for 5 things. Not one, not a single one got looked at properly let alone fixed. As the matter of fact, they told me, 5th one is not on the list. I showed them the picture of the service request (I take screenshots of everything I put in the app), and then they said we can't look at everything we don't have the time, yet, they kept the car for 2 days and I was notified it was done on the first day EOD.
Volume is the name of the game to grow, but service and support cannot follow it. Very typical from supposedly a-typical company.

 

[raphy3]

Total Tesla Bullshit. Translation= Read these irrelevant words, that have noting to do with your request, and please go away. I agree with Batt and Mike, that these words refer to not having to make changes on existing vehicles, that they make on vehicles going forward.

I would write them back and say

Thank you for providing some wording, in the warranty, which is of course, totally irrelevant to my request. Is Tesla claiming that there is something in this wording that allows them to modify my vehicles performance, unilaterally, without my permission? If so, please underline that wording, because I am not finding that agreement anywhere.

Did Tesla make any OTA modifications that changed the way my car supercharges? A simple yes or no will be sufficient. My request is that you reverse these changes, so that I can, once again, use my car, for the purpose it was purchased.

100%. This was an attempt at a brush off with some mumbo jumbo legalese, hoping it would just sound final to the petitioner. Total amateur response here. Why even bother? The response says one irrelevant thing and one incorrect thing. 1) "We don't have to upgrade your car." They appear to be using this defense to avoid upgrading a car that they have preciously downgraded! ROFL. 2) you have to do OTAs anyway if you wanna keep the warranty on your old car. Umm K, again irrelevant, and also incorrect.

This is off course wrong and has been disproven many times. I've gone back through this myself staring at old warranty documents and this wording didn't show up until late 2017 with new and used cars sold after that. It's already been demonstrated by many people including myself that Tesla will readily admit you don't need a software update to have warranty repairs. They will try to force them on you anyway and claim the repairs can't be done without an update

 

[cpa]

This may clear up many of the problems we are facing.

I received an email today from an R. Giuliani of Brooklyn, NY. This email said in part,

"As a part of our ongoing investigation into the Deep State conspiracy, a concerned citizen, Rodney Rudishauser of McKeesport, PA, uncovered another fraud. He provided our legal team with a signed and sworn affidavit that the software in Tesla vehicles was designed by Dominion Software of Venezuela to make unauthorized changes in the amount of battery capacity and Supercharging speeds. We will be vigorously pursuing all possible remedies."

With such a concerned and talented team of lawyers, we are certain to overturn the software changes and get our cars back to the way they were for Four More Years!

 

[Droschke]

@cpa - So nice to see you back . You were missed.

 

[Droschke]

Many posts on this thread on coolant pumps running near 80% SoC. Here is the confirmation by Tesla:

Continuous Faint Humming Noise When Parked

"When battery pack reaches above 80% or close to and vehicle are parked and locked, 1 of the coolant pumps will be idling due to safety reasons and to preserve the battery pack. This are recently implemented in a firmware update."

It's getting worse now ... so much for the 80% threshold. Yesterday, I AC charged my car (at 240 volt 24 amp) from 42% to 50%. My pumps started to run loudly.

 

[AQQU]

Where did you send this to? Generic to Tesla office, or particular department/person?

I sent it to the Tesla HQ in Zurich, Switzerland. Adressed to no specific name, just their Management ("Geschäftsleitung"). As with the first letter, they passed it on to my local Service Center from which the reply was sent to me.