Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Droschke]

Tesla (Panasonic) and GM (LG Chem) cells differ, though

That's it? What happened to the rest of your sentence?

 

[lightningltd]

Many posts on this thread on coolant pumps running near 80% SoC. Here is the confirmation by Tesla:

Continuous Faint Humming Noise When Parked

"When battery pack reaches above 80% or close to and vehicle are parked and locked, 1 of the coolant pumps will be idling due to safety reasons and to preserve the battery pack. This are recently implemented in a firmware update."

Seems to me, that since this comes from an official channel, it could be used as evidence to further bolster our case.

 

[MP3Mike]

A recall statement "Update to 2019.16 or later" is all they ever needed to do.

Given how it looks like the MCU/eMMC issue is going I'm expecting that there will be a recall issued for that requiring an upgrade to the current firmware that supports the failure detection and limited functionality mode. So all those V8/V9 hold-outs may get more encouragement to upgrade to the current version.

 

[Veggen]

That would have to be SOME encouragement, I really like my V8.

 

[Chaserr]

You don't have to comply with a recall but it will inform you if you are at risk and what those risks are. You could be responsible if others are harmed by your choice to avoid safety recalls. Without that recall Tesla assumes responsibility for failing to inform us.

I want official disclosure purely so I can park inside safely. I have been informed I might be at risk of a fire safety event and drastic steps have been taken against me without my informed consent, with no end in sight.

If we look at the Bolt recall, informed consent states clearly that everyone with a 2017-2019 Bolt us at risk and will be informed directly do that batterygate caps can be verified to be working to protect and preserve both the pack and lives while a permanent solution that restored 100% safely is worked out.

We don't know if our Tesla's are safe or not because there was never any informed consent. If we are safe due to volt capping, are people like @samppa in danger? Without informed consent we don't know and the decision to decline updates is the most reasonable choice given all of the information we have that doesn't assume Tesla is hiding safety problems that must be recalled immediately. All we know is informed consent as we have been officially is "there's a fire problem. Not really. We're crippling cars for absolutely no reason and we refuse to tell you the truth. ". What does that mean? A recall only helps us all. It's a promise the charge and thermal settings we hate are saving lives, and it's a promise the charge and thermal settings changes are temporary.

Right now we don't have assurances of either. We deserve to know why we have been wronged, especially those that may still be in danger. We don't know if we are still in danger and we don't know when we will be restored to 100%. We only knowx Tesla is dishonest about the whole thing.

 

[fbitz777]

I realize that this thread would not exist if Tesla had no OTAs... They would have had to issue a recall to bring our cars in to the SC and explain why. We probably would have received replacement packs by now.

 

[mvotb]

I realize that this thread would not exist if Tesla had no OTAs... They would have had to issue a recall to bring our cars in to the SC and explain why. We probably would have received replacement packs by now.

Yep, this will be the last car I own, that the manufacturer can mess with, without my permission.

 

[wk057]

Yep, this will be the last car I own, that the manufacturer can mess with, without my permission.

Good luck with that. Seems like that's impossible as long as things keep progressing in the direction they're going (Internet of Sh...... er, Things).

 

[Chaserr]

This might prompt the NHTSA to start regulating OTA.

Ford and Firestone failed to report tire pressure problems to the NHTSA for years, killing hundreds of people. The NHTSA's response to that failure to report was requireng every car sold to have a tire pressure monitoring system installed.

The problem is will Tesla's decision to weaponize OTA against owners cause officials to put the brakes on speedy updates? There is a balance that needs to be established and I wouldn't want it to swing to the other extreme either.

 

[mymagiccarpet]

Many posts on this thread on coolant pumps running near 80% SoC. Here is the confirmation by Tesla:

Continuous Faint Humming Noise When Parked

"When battery pack reaches above 80% or close to and vehicle are parked and locked, 1 of the coolant pumps will be idling due to safety reasons and to preserve the battery pack. This are recently implemented in a firmware update."

did he mean new or old 80%?

 

[Florian500]

That's it? What happened to the rest of your sentence?

The rest of the sentence is open to imagination. It might spark thoughts in a direction like this: Tesla has cells made by Panasonic in the same building and, I assume, knows most details of those cells. And can answer all NHTSA questions as detailed as needed. GM on the other hand buys off the shelf cells that, hopefully, comply with some GM requirements. So GM might not be able to answer NHTSA questions with the same level of detail as Tesla. And LG Chem cells were/are subject to recalls all over the world.

 

[Droschke]

The rest of the sentence is open to imagination. It might spark thoughts in a direction like this: Tesla has cells made by Panasonic in the same building and, I assume, knows most details of those cells. And can answer all NHTSA questions as detailed as needed. GM on the other hand buys off the shelf cells that, hopefully, comply with some GM requirements. So GM might not be able to answer NHTSA questions with the same level of detail as Tesla. And LG Chem cells were/are subject to recalls all over the world.

Great point. Thanks for elaborating.

 

[BigNick]

Good luck with that. Seems like that's impossible as long as things keep progressing in the direction they're going (Internet of Sh...... er, Things).

I will invent Faraday Wrap.
Protects your car from stone chips, dirt and debris while also protecting from unwanted ones and zeroes flying around through the cloud!

 

[mvotb]

Good luck with that. Seems like that's impossible as long as things keep progressing in the direction they're going (Internet of Sh...... er, Things).

I don't need luck. Most cars don't have OTA at this point, and I have no problem diving a car for a very long time. I just sold my chevy 2500 that was 24 yrs old, but I agree with you on the way things are going, I'm just not going to play.

 

[Battpower]

to monitor temperatures for anomalous readings as part of the "enhanced diagnostics" if a cell is heating up beyond safe limits a module can see it by temperature being consistently higher leaving that module

Not quite sure about. To emphasize temp differences at sensors I think you'd want little or almost no coolant flow. High flow would presumably mask the existence of over dissipation in a module. Maybe the diagnostic does both..... High flow to bump down SOC while keeping temps low, then low flow rate looking for signs of elevated temp?

It would also make a difference to understanding if we knew is the primary issue relates to something internal to one particular cell triggering surrounding cascade failure vs evenly spread effect within a brick due to increasing mismatch / elevated temps / increasing mismatch to the point that the whole brick becomes compromised.

off the shelf cells that, hopefully, comply with some GM requirements

 

[Chaserr]

Maybe the diagnostic does both..... High flow to bump down SOC while keeping temps low, then low flow rate looking for signs of elevated temp?

Tesla isn't trying to replace dangerous batteries looking for elevated temps - it's looking for ways to avoid replacing dangerous batteries. We know this because if they were willing to break the law and still are. I think pumpgate gets rid of as much SOC as possible (even more voltage than recalled Chevy batteries are downgraded) to keep the not immediately dangerous packs from costing them warranty money, and only identified batteries they can't keep from thermal runaway.

My post-batterygate pump gate changes run the pumps at high speed without fans most of the time, but the fans ramp up like a supercharge session at random while home charging, or just parked overnight. Those bursts of supercharger cooling fans seem to keep Tesla's accountants happy with leaving batteries like mine on the road. Only batteries that continue to heat up would need to be replaced. A multi-tiered diagnostic plan like this could be called "Advanced Diagnostics."

If all the Advanced Diagnostics did was identify batteries about to burn and bleed off volts while reducing temperatures until they stop srlf- heating on their own they wouldn't need batterygate caps right now. But they do need the caps, and I don't think they will ever go away without a recall forcing it to happen.

 

[Battpower]

off the shelf cells that, hopefully, comply with some GM requirements.

Whoops.... forgot to comment..

I have off the shelf consumer LG Chem batteries used with a different manufacturer's inverter / charger for home energy. Even though the inverter and battery are supposedly supported and compatible, there is no way to connect with LG for technical info. Actual application is left to who ever buys their product. The battery has its own built-in LG Chem BMS and uses canbus to connect to the third party charger / inverter, so there are two levels of control. Canbus reports 100% SOC @ 58V IIRC, but impossible to get confirmation if its safe to charge to 100%.

There is no cooling, temperature is monitored and in my case the battery rarely sits at 100%, but my guess is that a large amount of safety issue and provision come down to fine details of each application.

 

[AQQU]

I just received the 2nd certified letter from Tesla, in reply to my 2nd certified letter to them (demanding to have the charging speed adjusted to the pre-2019-16-x-software values):

We refer to your letter of xx.yy.2020 and would like to inform you about the following:

We are pleased to provide you with an extract from our warranty conditions under "Changes and waivers" (page 12):

"Tesla reserves the right to (...) make changes to the vehicles manufactured or sold by Tesla and the applicable warranties at any time without incurring any obligation to make the same or similar payments or changes to vehicles previously manufactured or sold by Tesla or applicable warranties, including this limited new vehicle warranty.

This provision has been in effect since 2012, accordingly at the time of sale of your vehicle, and has not changed since then. This also applies to the wear and tear caused by the use of the battery and its performance.

In addition, failure to install the available updates invalidates the warranty (page 10).

Based on our guidelines and conditions, we cannot meet your request.

 

[Battpower]

Am I reading correctly that Tesla think they have the right to modify both vehicle spec and warranty cover and the owner has no recourse?

If so, that seems a monumentally stupid response / statement from them.

But it does appear not too infrequently that Tesla's approach to things is ultimately dictated by their belief that they can change whatever they like without consequences for them. I wonder if this reply is specifically for your location?

 

[Battpower]

Only batteries that continue to heat up would need to be replaced. A multi-tiered diagnostic plan like this could be called "Advanced Diagnostics."

Yes. Or as I think you go on to point out later, if the self-discharging / self-heating reaches a certain level then your pack becomes too high of a risk.

reducing temperatures until they stop self- heating

At some pack energy level I'm assuming the proselytized self-heating effect deminishes then stops (eventually?) Or may be this effect is present all the time, but normally at a very low level such that the thermal conductivity to surrounding air is sufficient to maintain equilibrium.

But they do need the caps,

That's the belt and braces maybe, but also possible that actually you need all the measures in place to keep within their target 'envelope'. Temperature and voltage are indicators of 'pressure' I believe, so keeping both within limits would be important.