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Wiki Super Heavy/Starship - General Development Discussion

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It also bumps the payload capacity by about 10%. Well worth keeping.
10% relative to the wonky IFT1-style flip maneuver, but for a droneship landing scenario they could probably do a Falcon-type separation while flying faster and more horizontally, so presumably the penalty would be a lot less than 10%. By also eliminating the mass of the hot-staging ring, maybe it could be a net positive.
 
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I haven't read it, but the screenshots in the tweet are from https://www.faa.gov/media/80626, which is an Environmental Impact Statement prepared by the FAA. It probably makes more sense to analyze that than the tweeter's interpretation.
Thank you for that reality check. Some random person on X tweeting what they think will get attention is not the best way to get information.
Is SpaceX still talking about re-purposing a drilling rig?
I recall that not too long ago SpaceX sold the two oil platforms they had purchased years ago?
 
The original separation method involved a flip release (like Starlink deploy). Hot staging keeps the Ship going straight.

I interpreted @Brass Guy 's question as being the reason for the seperation mechanism, being hot staging is that it allows greater perfomace for the 2nd stage (never stop thrusting), as opposed to the flip of the booster, which is needed for return...
 
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Isn't hot-staging about avoiding starship coasting, rather than anything to do with the booster flip?
As I understand it, the IFT-1 flip maneuver was primarily required to keep Booster's propellant settled (by centrifugal force) while it separated from Starship, so it could safely start up its boostback burn a few seconds later. In the droneship scenario, with a Falcon-like separation, there is no boostack burn (or reentry burn) to worry about, so the booster propellant doesn't need to stay settled after separation. Gravity+drag will settle it during atmospheric descent, so it will be settled for the landing burn. And even though Starship will have a few seconds of non-spinning weightlessness before lighting its engines, it doesn't matter because its tanks are full at that point, so there's no sloshing to worry about. The 10% reduction in payload efficiency was more due to the rotation than the coasting, IIRC. Also, in the droneship scenario the separation will be faster/higher/more horizontal than in the RTLS scenario, so gravity losses should be even less of a factor.
 
I interpreted @Brass Guy 's question as being the reason for the seperation mechanism, being hot staging is that it allows greater perfomace for the 2nd stage (never stop thrusting), as opposed to the flip of the booster, which is needed for return...
Yes that's what I was getting at - hot staging improves overall performance even considering carrying the extra mass of the hot staging ring. I can't seem to find where I read that. If that increase in performance still holds on the longer boost, I expect they would not remove the hot staging ring if they were to try a drone ship booster landing.
 
As I understand it, the IFT-1 flip maneuver was primarily required to keep Booster's propellant settled
As I recall, it was primarily to get maximum performance out of the stack. Being able to keep the propellant settled was obviously a big win, but the name of the game is payload to orbit, and the flip was superior to traditional staging in that respect. I'm sure they considered hot staging from the start, and thought that they had come up with a simpler solution. It's curious that they made the attempt, then discarded it immediately. Perhaps it was an Elonism that his guys didn't like, he pushed for it anyway, then abandoned it when it didn't immediately work. Or telemetry disproved it as a useful technique.

Yes that's what I was getting at - hot staging improves overall performance even considering carrying the extra mass of the hot staging ring. I can't seem to find where I read that.


“We made sort of a late-breaking change that’s really quite significant to the way that stage separation works,” Musk said, describing the switch to hot staging. “There’s a meaningful payload-to-orbit advantage with hot-staging that is conservatively about a 10% increase.”
 
IFT-4 had two tiles removed, and a third was replaced by a thinner form factor. Elon has stated that the removed tiles were to test a new ablative material. He called it a "silicone felt". Folks have been assuming that he meant "silica felt", but I just located a NASA document on ablative materials and it says that matrix ablators (like PICA) have "polymer resins like phenolic or silicone". So they're going to a silicone-infused material. The idea is that the felt is more durable than tiles and will stay in place, but because it is an ablator it gets used up if exposed. It'll be interesting to see how they apply the felt. Will it be like the flexible fabric sheets that they had on earlier flights, or will it be discrete stiff pieces that get mounted under the tiles?

Fun fact 1: some formulations of silicone don't melt until around 1400 C.
Fun fact 2: ablators with phenolic or silicone sublimate, not melt or boil
Fun fact 3: ablators call for short duration reentries, while tiles call for long duration reentries (as a result of the properties of each material)
 
The ablative material may be Pyron, and cork is also mentioned in the job posting. Cork is considered a good ablative material (e.g. P50 sheet cork).



Pyron is flame resistant fiber used as an effective heat-blocking and fire barrier material. Pyron fibers do not burn, melt, or drip. Instead they char and self-extinguish. The largest application for Pyron is the aircraft brake market, where Pyron holds the dominant position in the marketplace. Other commercial applications include metal working protection, automotive, aerospace, furniture and bedding, racewear and other protective apparel, military, energy storage, and noise vibration handling.
 
The ablative material may be Pyron, and cork is also mentioned in the job posting. Cork is considered a good ablative material (e.g. P50 sheet cork).

That comment about cork inspired some google searches which led me to an excellent NASA slide deck: Fundamentals of Launch Vehicle Ablative Thermal Protection System (TPS) Materials. It briefly covers lots of things I didn't know existed. Heat resistant spackle (my term) for last minute patches. Heat resistant rubber for joints that flex (e.g. Shuttle SRBs). "Fundamentals" is correct, you won't learn details about anything, but you'll learn lots of things. And lots of pictures, too :)
 
This is a bit odd. On June 12, 13, and 14, Starship Gazer has footage of workers removing tiles. Now on June 18, they have footage of workers putting tiles back on. The underlayment looks the same, the mesh looks the same, and the tile going on looks the same. I have no idea what's happening. I was expecting them to strip the thermal protection system down to bare metal and start over again with ablative material and thin tiles.

 
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Weird indeed. But the tiles they are applying could be the new type, they just look the same in the low resolution video. That said, the underlayment does not appear to have been changed.

What is the purpose of the 3-pointed metal piece that is briefly placed on the mounting pins before the tile is snapped into place? Cleaning the pins?

Why spray the exterior surface of the tiles before mounting them?

Those guys need some soft rubber mallets. Using your fist to pound the tiles onto the pins, hundreds of times per day, is a recipe for soft tissue damage.
 
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What is the purpose of the 3-pointed metal piece that is briefly placed on the mounting pins before the tile is snapped into place?
I assume that it's to ensure that the pins haven't been bent during the tile removal process, and that they'll line up properly for tile installation.

Why spray the exterior surface of the tiles before mounting them?
It could be a waterproofing spray. Scotchguard. They used to do that in the early days, but it wasn't very effective, so they changed to a different treatment that was more toxic to the workers. If these are the new tiles, they may be designed to either be less hydrophilic, absorbing less moisture, or more easily capable of shedding moisture without shattering.

It didn't look like they were trying to clean anything off.
 
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That comment about cork inspired some google searches which led me to an excellent NASA slide deck: Fundamentals of Launch Vehicle Ablative Thermal Protection System (TPS) Materials. It briefly covers lots of things I didn't know existed. Heat resistant spackle (my term) for last minute patches. Heat resistant rubber for joints that flex (e.g. Shuttle SRBs). "Fundamentals" is correct, you won't learn details about anything, but you'll learn lots of things. And lots of pictures, too :)

I remember learning that the F9 also had cork on the underside around the engines, and was surprised... I believe some (much?) was replaced with something more permanent in one of the Block design updates.
 
And here we go. This shows a worker retrieving a roll of a black sheet material which I assume is not roof felt. Looking at the ship itself, it seems like there is a large section of the ship with black material on it. I don't believe it's "stainless steel in a particular light" because there are no reflections on it. Note the way the work light interacts with the black.

1718805342982.png


The plan may be to put the ablative material only on parts of the vehicle that experience the most heat. The replacement tiles could then be slightly thinner everywhere in order to make up for the increase in mass.
 
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