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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Roadster Supercharging Kit?
Edit: Thread was split off from out of the Roadster 3.0 thread, so sounds out of context a bit.
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I'm honestly a bit surprised Tesla hasn't done anything with the Roadster and supercharging. Even if they added the basic hardware needed to just allow the Roadster to use a supercharger even at L2 charging speeds (20kW?) that would be awesome news for Roadster owners... and I bet more would jump on at $29k. I don't think there are enough Roadsters out there to add any significant clogging of the superchargers, so this would be great PR value.
Edit:
Estimated components list:
I was trying to point out how simple it actually is, although I may have made it sound more complicated.
Basically, the superchargers are more than capable of charging a Roadster pack if they were told to so with the appropriate hardware to bypass the AC charger. It literally would be, at most, a couple thousand dollars in parts even at low volume worst-case. Probably a decent amount of labor to install it all, though.
Imagine *that* positive PR value.
Edit: Thread was split off from out of the Roadster 3.0 thread, so sounds out of context a bit.
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I'm honestly a bit surprised Tesla hasn't done anything with the Roadster and supercharging. Even if they added the basic hardware needed to just allow the Roadster to use a supercharger even at L2 charging speeds (20kW?) that would be awesome news for Roadster owners... and I bet more would jump on at $29k. I don't think there are enough Roadsters out there to add any significant clogging of the superchargers, so this would be great PR value.
Edit:
Estimated components list:
- 4x 80A+ capable contactors
- Two normally-closed and two normally-open would be ideal
- The Model S uses two because the AC chargers are capable of ignoring the DC HV and don't need to be taken out of the loop. Unsure if the Roadster charger could handle this.
- A fuse for good measure
- New charge port and wiring
- Might be able to use existing wiring, actually, if the charge speed/amperage is limited to the same as the current wiring, and just modify it at the existing AC->DC charger
- There is already a Roadster to Model S adapter that people could get to use the new port with their existing Roadster chargers, of a Model S J1772 adapter, or a HPWC, etc etc
- New module (super small) for communicating with the supercharger, activating the bypass contactors, and controlling the pack's thermal management just like the normal AC->DC charger would
I was trying to point out how simple it actually is, although I may have made it sound more complicated.
Basically, the superchargers are more than capable of charging a Roadster pack if they were told to so with the appropriate hardware to bypass the AC charger. It literally would be, at most, a couple thousand dollars in parts even at low volume worst-case. Probably a decent amount of labor to install it all, though.
Imagine *that* positive PR value.
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If you are right, please, PLEASE assemble an upgrade kit for us to install. I know we would need Tesla's cooperation... oh well.
Absolutely supercharging would be more valuable to me than added range. That's true for most of us. But I think it would be MUCH harder to implement than you suggest, far more than a couple thousand bucks in parts. In addition, it takes about 12 person-hours to replace the pack, much less open it up and replace internal parts with new brackets, bus bars, sensors, etc. High-temperature plastic injection molds are very expensive for such a small volume run. Existing wiring would only allow about 18kW max. It would take a considerable effort to get more than that. What would we get that we don't have now? One or two kW higher charging rate? At that rate I don't think you'd get enough takers to bring the parts cost down to $2 - 4,000 dollars.
Having said that, you've taken on some impressive projects and completed them with less effort than I would have expected. Maybe you're right? Believe me, I would LOVE to see you try, and succeed. Even if you just made a kit for us to install, a lot of us would buy it.
Actually the 18kW number you quote is 70A at ~240V. The pack is a higher voltage, so, more kW at the same amperage is possible with the same wiring (most wiring is usually rated for 600V). However, I think Roadster owners would be happy to be able to use the supercharger network at *any* speed just to add hundreds of established and nearly-guaranteed working charging spots. I think 30kW would be pretty doable (Edit: Looks like it'd be ~24-27kW @ 70A), personally, but I'd still bet Roadster owners would be happy with the access at all even at 18kW. Am I wrong here?
It would definitely require cooperation with Tesla, to some extent, to do so legally. While I'm sure I could whip something up that acts like a Model S, VIN and all, and gets the supercharger putting out power... I'd rather not without at the very least a wink and a nod of some kind from Tesla.
It honestly isn't as complicated as you'd think. The supercharger protocol can be implemented on a $5 microcontroller with a few bucks in parts. The contactors are somewhat expensive overall, but not all that bad. I think the Model S charge port that fits well in a Roadster would be the hardest part of the whole project, especially if it included the handle locking mechanism.
I don't believe the battery pack itself needs to be opened at all for this. The Roadster still has an AC charger that isn't part of the pack that has access to the HV DC connection to the pack. Basically would just need access to this spot (the PEM), and the charge port. No opening of the pack would be required I believe. Edit: Looking closer at some photos it appears the HV cabling is pretty accessible.
While I could certainly hack something together to make it work with minimal effort, to do it *right* would need more help from Tesla to basically integrate it into the car's software interface/thermal management/etc. Without their help on the software side I'd probably end up freaking out the car because it wouldn't understand where this power was coming from or why the battery voltage was rising on its own, etc.
It can definitely be done. I wouldn't expect supercharger speeds from it, but it could be done and likely at ~double AC charging speeds without issue. (Edit: 0.6C is considered universally pretty safe for lithium batteries. For a 53 kWh pack that would come to ~32kW (with larger charge port wiring) without active cooling like the Model S has)
Edit: Anyway, while I think Tesla should definitely do this themselves (seems like a no brainer, really, especially for them) I'm not sure I'll take on the task on my own. Perhaps when I'm done with my solar project and need a new challenge I'll try to find a Roadster that needs a new home and do some tinkering. At the very least I'd have to put a Model S charge inlet on it anyway so I could use my HPWCs easily.
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spaceballs
Member
I could build a Supercharging kit, it can be done on a 2.0/2.5 without much hardware modification (i.e. no need to remove PEM/ESS). A 1.5 would be more work due to the larger PEM and custom HV cables with it's connectors, and likely would need remove PEM.
it would require a firmware update, a few holes in the trunk, and some trunk space to place a model S plug and HV relays.
Granted this might be odd having to pop the trunk lid to supercharge, but it be cheaper/less work then dropping the ESS and replacing the existing charging port. A replacement of the existing charge port with an Model S receptacle would require more 2 more relays and I would place this supercharger junction box where the stock subwoofer would be.
I would be able to do all the modification/prototype myself if Tesla was willing to give my company access to the firmware source code. I would make Tesla a proof of concept for discounted 3.0 upgrade for my other roadster
it would require a firmware update, a few holes in the trunk, and some trunk space to place a model S plug and HV relays.
Granted this might be odd having to pop the trunk lid to supercharge, but it be cheaper/less work then dropping the ESS and replacing the existing charging port. A replacement of the existing charge port with an Model S receptacle would require more 2 more relays and I would place this supercharger junction box where the stock subwoofer would be.
I would be able to do all the modification/prototype myself if Tesla was willing to give my company access to the firmware source code. I would make Tesla a proof of concept for discounted 3.0 upgrade for my other roadster
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If you are going to be supercharging at only 30kW, I can see why Tesla would not want to bother with that. It simply won't be a good use of the power capabilities of the superchargers. Much better to install more HPWCs.
spaceballs
Member
I think they were talking about re-using the existing roadster charging wiring harness which would limit the power it could handle from the supercharger to the ESS (i.e. weakest link).
What I was thinking was replacing those wires with something more beefier cables. Then the limiting factor is C rating of cells, HV cables in side the ESS, and cables from the ESS to PEM. Those cables handle burst of >600 Amps so I'm thinking much higher.. I need to go through my notes to verify what size of HV cabling they used.
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The number of Roadsters is so small that I don't think it would be an issue. The advantage is that the Superchagers are along routes you might want to travel and spaced apart that the Roadster 3.0 could easily reach.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
To clarify, I'm talking about the simpler modification that they are talking about that uses minimal changes. I'm sure by replacing enough parts, Tesla can get it significantly higher, but then the cost becomes an issue.
spaceballs
Member
I think their minimal changes would be about the same in cost and install time as replacing the existing charging port in my idea. Also I think you don't have to drop the ESS to replace the charge port, you can get access to it via rear wheel well.
i.e. new parts list.
Model S charge port.
New HV wiring to support more current, with HV tap to connect it to the existing ESS/PEM HV cable.
A supercharger box (4 HV relays, and micro with CAN communication) that would screw into where the subwoofer is.
And Firmware update.
Exactly!
I considered a Roadster as an upgrade to my Elise, and the lack of Supercharging (not because of the speed, but the uptime compared to all the other charging networks), was the deciding factor. I take annual trips across Europe in it, and yes I guess I could buy a hundred different RFID cards, plan to stay only at certain hotels, risk broken charge ports etc. etc. it seemed like so much hard work. (Similar trips would be easy in a Model S.)
In the end I bought an Exige.
Oh well now we're talking about supercharging again :biggrin:
How hard would it be to build a charger for 3 phase charging instead of 1 phase? Here in Europe we have 3 x 230V @ 63A so that would mean 150 mi/hr of charging. Old pack full in 1h15; new pack full in less than 2h. That is already "supercharging" to me..
On topic, I will postpone my battery upgrade as long as possible. If returning a dead pack costs no more than returning one with 148 CAC, they will have to wait until it's completely dead. And that will probably take 3 more years at 40k mi/yr. It's good we have the option now, but it doesn't taste like candy at that price so the tempation to jump on it is close to non-existant.
How hard would it be to build a charger for 3 phase charging instead of 1 phase? Here in Europe we have 3 x 230V @ 63A so that would mean 150 mi/hr of charging. Old pack full in 1h15; new pack full in less than 2h. That is already "supercharging" to me..
On topic, I will postpone my battery upgrade as long as possible. If returning a dead pack costs no more than returning one with 148 CAC, they will have to wait until it's completely dead. And that will probably take 3 more years at 40k mi/yr. It's good we have the option now, but it doesn't taste like candy at that price so the tempation to jump on it is close to non-existant.
spaceballs
Member
I say your power limited by the charger in the roadster, even if you were rectify three phase to DC, and dump it into the charger at the right place where it could use it, the existing components from that point on inside the charger are the limiting factor.
Much more difficult, than adding a direct hook into the DC side and having the 3 phase chargers external in some form of Rapid charger (CHAdeMO/Supercharger/CCS)
Especially when those are already deployed and proven.Cynically I think that's the idea
Can we avoid cluttering up the thread with three phase / supercharging talk please? Unless you are announcing an upgrade kit to the community...
Anyone else think they waited until the Model X design studio went live to bury news of this price under the stories of the X in the mainstream press?
Anyone else think they waited until the Model X design studio went live to bury news of this price under the stories of the X in the mainstream press?
ratsbew
Active Member
I'm pretty sure there is a contactor inside the pack. Elon said during his speech at TESLIVE in 2013 that the Roadster has the wrong kind of contactor to be able to supercharge. Maybe he was talking about the contactor in the PEM which might be an AC contactor. In any case, if there is a contactor inside the pack, I doubt if it closes unless you're charging or driving. I'm not sure how you would fool it into thinking you were doing either one in order to keep the contactor closed. Maybe I'm missing something? One thing for sure is that you would need active cooling, but at 30kW I suspect there's enough cooling capacity.
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