Supercharger - Nephi, UT - South Main Street

[midi10]

I’m curious to know if Tesla is having a problem producing the v4 dispensers. We’ve only seen a dozen or so installed and so far none have the magic dock, screen or payment terminal active. These are all required for an NEVI station. It was clear they had the initial award and then something charged. Seems odd.

 

[MP3Mike]

I’m curious to know if Tesla is having a problem producing the v4 dispensers. We’ve only seen a dozen or so installed and so far none have the magic dock, screen or payment terminal active. These are all required for an NEVI station. It was clear they had the initial award and then something charged. Seems odd.

It wouldn't matter if all of those things were active, they still wouldn't be NEVI compliant because the chargers are still V3, and they are limited to ~500V and ~90/kW per stall. (when all stalls are in use)

They will need to have V4 chargers to pair with the V4 posts for their NEVI installs. While they have been approved, they haven't started installing them yet, there is still probably more red tape before that can happen.

Shoot, so far there is only a single NEVI funded site open so far, across all entities that have been approved. The program is moving very slow.

 

[MP3Mike]

I’m curious to know if Tesla is having a problem producing the v4 dispensers.

The other thing is that they are still refining the V4 post design:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1741497683422871749

 

[corbin630]

they are limited to ~500V and ~90/kW per stall. (when all stalls are in use)

V3 chargers share 575 kW per 4 posts, so they could theoretically charge 4 cars at 143.75 kW per post. In reality you will rarely see 4 cars arriving at the same time requesting that much power, plus each cabinet (4 posts per cabinet) power shares across the whole site and most stations at this point are 3 cabinets (12 stalls) or larger which reduces the chances that your charge rate will be lowered due to a capacity issue. Is there a NEVI rule somewhere about the kW per stall? I only see a requirement of each stall being able to handle 150 kW or higher and a total station capacity of 600 kW.

Each NEVI-funded DC fast charge station will have a minimum of four 150 kW Combined Charging System (CCS) connectors and a minimum total station power of 600 kW

The way I interpret this, if a Tesla Supercharger has 2 cabinets with a total station power of 1,150 and at least 4 of those support 150 kW or higher (all of them will be 250 kW or higher if using v4) then they should qualify for NEVI funding. There's still plenty of cars out there from other manufacturers and even some Teslas that can't take a full 250 kW charge anyway, so I don't think that total station power is going to be an issue.

Model 3 RWD: 170 kW
Model 3 Performance: 210 kW
Model 3 Long Range: 250 kW

Model Y: 210 kW
Model Y Long Range: 250 kW

Mustang Mach-E: 107 kW
Mustang Mach-E Extended Range: 150 kW

Chevy Bolt: 55 kW

Volkswagen ID.4: 118 kW
Volkswagen ID.4 Pro: 150 kW

Rivian R1T: 220 kW
Rivian R1S: 250 kW

 

[MP3Mike]

V3 chargers share 575 kW per 4 posts,

Nope. They share ~375kW per 4 posts. (so ~90kW/stall)

This older cabinet is limited to ~350kW per 4 stalls:

Is there a NEVI rule somewhere about the kW per stall? I only see a requirement of each stall being able to handle 150 kW or higher and a total station capacity of 600 kW.

Yes, the rule is that every NEVI funded stall has to be able to deliver a minimum of 150kW at all times. It can never fall below that capability for any reason. (I've heard that some states don't allow power sharing between stalls at all even over 150kW.)

Federal Register :: Request Access

This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC located along and designed to serve users of designated AFCs must simultaneously deliver up to 150kW, as requested by the EV

This final rule also clarifies that power sharing is permissible above the minimum 150-kW per-port requirement for DCFCs.

 

[Park2670]

Correct, it's 350kW per four stalls, but each power unit can steal up to an additional 575kW from another non used power unit.

Also, my 2022 Performance Model 3 can charge at 250kW. All Long Range Model 3 and Model Y max out at 250kW.

 

[corbin630]

Nope. They share ~375kW per 4 posts. (so ~90kW/stall)

This older cabinet is limited to ~350kW per 4 stalls:

View attachment 1005923

Yes, the rule is that every NEVI funded stall has to be able to deliver a minimum of 150kW at all times. It can never fall below that capability for any reason. (I've heard that some states don't allow power sharing between stalls at all even over 150kW.)

Federal Register :: Request Access

The kVa rating at 480v does not mean that the unit can output a maximum of 350 kW. The input can go as high as 528v and the peak rating is going to be higher than the continuous rating. The cabinets can share the energy through the DC bus at a higher voltage as well, so they can actually exceed 480v and then share that to other cabinets while outputting 400v to the cars connected. Also, kVa to kW is not a 1:1 measurement.

Edit: Also, the rules only state that 4 stalls need to be 150 kW or higher. An 8 stall site that has at least 4 stalls running at 150 kW passes that rule.

 

[MP3Mike]

The kVa rating at 480v does not mean that the unit can output a maximum of 350 kW. The input can go as high as 528v and the peak rating is going to be higher than the continuous rating. The cabinets can share the energy through the DC bus at a higher voltage as well, so they can actually exceed 480v and then share that to other cabinets while outputting 400v to the cars connected. Also, kVa to kW is not a 1:1 measurement.

Yeah, yeah kVa isn't 1:1, but in these cases it is close enough. Sure, input voltage could go higher, but all of the utility transformers I have seen them use have been 480v. Sharing power doesn't increase the AC input voltage... So not sure what you are talking about there. Unless there is an extra cabinet with no stalls on it, any sharing steals, the limited, power from another stall.

A common Tesla installation is a 1000kVa, pretty much 1000kW, transformer with 3 cabinets and 12 stalls. So only ~83 kW per stall... Tesla has sized their installations for what makes sense in the real world, not the silly requirements that NEVI has.

And there is still the problem that it is limited to 500v output, and I think that NEVI requires 1000v capabilities... So all the rest doesn't matter.

Edit: Also, the rules only state that 4 stalls need to be 150 kW or higher. An 8 stall site that has at least 4 stalls running at 150 kW passes that rule.

Not if the other 4 stalls are NEVI funded. And as I said states apply restrictions on top, some of which do not allow power sharing at all. Again here is what their guidance says:

This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC located along and designed to serve users of designated AFCs must simultaneously deliver up to 150kW, as requested by the EV

Notice it says "each", not the first 4, or at least 4, or anything like that.

We will have to wait to see how the first NEVI funded site Tesla installs is built. My guess is with V4 chargers that we haven't seen yet.

 

[awokeinthelbc]

Correct, it's 350kW per four stalls, but each power unit can steal up to an additional 575kW from another non used power unit.

Also, my 2022 Performance Model 3 can charge at 250kW. All Long Range Model 3 and Model Y max out at 250kW.

Earlier this week I saw my 2018 3P reach 269kW peak at 4%

 

[Park2670]

Earlier this week I saw my 2018 3P reach 269kW peak at 4%

Good point.

Tesla advertises 250kW max, but the car can and occasionally does more. I have seen 259kW max on my car.

 

[PLUS EV]

Earlier this week I saw my 2018 3P reach 269kW peak at 4%

Nice.