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Suspension question for folks who’ve had German cars
- Thread starter ZoomsansVroom
- Start date
I've owned two Audi A3s, and driven a variety of Audi courtesy cars in the A3/A4/Q2/Q3/Q5 ranges
The Tesla feels at least as good as them. I can feel the fact the car is heavier, but it doesn't feel 50% heavier. At high speed it feels just as planted as my A3, and if anything seems to absorb bumps a little better and is sligtly less twitchy
I can't compare to the higher end Audis with much authority, I've only test driven one or two, but my Model 3 Performance feels about as good as any Audi I can recall
The Tesla feels at least as good as them. I can feel the fact the car is heavier, but it doesn't feel 50% heavier. At high speed it feels just as planted as my A3, and if anything seems to absorb bumps a little better and is sligtly less twitchy
I can't compare to the higher end Audis with much authority, I've only test driven one or two, but my Model 3 Performance feels about as good as any Audi I can recall
Previous car was a 2017 330xi with Track Handling package (so EDC dampers and staggered non-run-flat PSS's). I added AC Schnitzer springs and a fatter rear sway bar. Man that car handled REALLY well.
The stock 3P suspension is kind of a joke for a performance spec. Small bump damping is quite good but the car gets way bent out of shape at speed. It's like they went for that "german feel" at low speed but I have no idea what the deal is with the behavior at higher speeds. After adding UP sway bars and MPP coilovers the car is vastly improved but still not nearly is confidence inspiring as my wagon.
Part of this is inevitable due to increased weight. Part of this is because of the EDC dampers and meatier tires. But I think the low center of gravity and balance of the P3, combined with the power increase, can eventually make for a better feeling ride. I'm really hoping someone makes and EDC setup for the Model 3, that would be my dream as I don't like crawling under the car to adjust dampers.
EDIT: it's worth mentioning that I drove a couple of stock 3's as loaners (2017 and 2018) and I would say the P3 handles as good or better in most situations. I actually hated the feel of those cars, they were super vague but this is a common complaint about the F3x's. The Track Handling setup is just that much better especially with AC Schnitzer springs.
The stock 3P suspension is kind of a joke for a performance spec. Small bump damping is quite good but the car gets way bent out of shape at speed. It's like they went for that "german feel" at low speed but I have no idea what the deal is with the behavior at higher speeds. After adding UP sway bars and MPP coilovers the car is vastly improved but still not nearly is confidence inspiring as my wagon.
Part of this is inevitable due to increased weight. Part of this is because of the EDC dampers and meatier tires. But I think the low center of gravity and balance of the P3, combined with the power increase, can eventually make for a better feeling ride. I'm really hoping someone makes and EDC setup for the Model 3, that would be my dream as I don't like crawling under the car to adjust dampers.
EDIT: it's worth mentioning that I drove a couple of stock 3's as loaners (2017 and 2018) and I would say the P3 handles as good or better in most situations. I actually hated the feel of those cars, they were super vague but this is a common complaint about the F3x's. The Track Handling setup is just that much better especially with AC Schnitzer springs.
I have the Dual Motor. I have driven a lot of high performance cars in my years. My father has had a Ferrari, Pantera, and 3 different Porsches including two twin turbos. I've driven plenty of Alfas, and BMWs. I'd say that my non-P Dual motor ranks pretty high up there in terms of stability. I am, however interested in some more downforce at this time, and may beef up the suspension in the future. I "might" have hit 117 MPH once or twice, and the car was good. My last car, an Infiniti G35 Couple got scary after 90 MPH, and that is even after stiffer sway bars and coil overs.
linux-works
Active Member
also, make sure you don't have a swaybar link problem. my 3 was feeling unstable at higher speeds (and even on some uneven roads) and recently got both sway bar links replaced, maybe it was also some overall torquing, but it now feels quite a bit more confident. it was always good at low speeds - impressive, actually. at higher speeds, felt like the suspension was loose or tuned wrong.
its better now - but the car is not designed (imo) to be good at both low and higher speeds (higher meaning over 80). or maybe a bit more than 80..
my only 'good' car (best of them) was a dinan e36 m3 that I bought used. at low speeds, my 3 feels better but at higher speeds, the old e36 felt better.
its better now - but the car is not designed (imo) to be good at both low and higher speeds (higher meaning over 80). or maybe a bit more than 80..
my only 'good' car (best of them) was a dinan e36 m3 that I bought used. at low speeds, my 3 feels better but at higher speeds, the old e36 felt better.
A bit of an older post but wanted to say the rear of the Model 3 at speed is where I believe the attention needs to be spent if upgrading. Coming from BMW's, the Model 3 can't take higher speed lateral motions without unsettling the rear end. Trail braking through a corner, you'll find the feeling of the rear undulating side to side. Would be interesting to see slow motion video capture these movements on higher speed tracks.
With the stock suspension, the car gets on its bump rubbers very early. This can cause the undulation and can be fixed with aftermarket coilovers. It might be that, depending on how loaded up the car is.
I also think regen is playing it's part as it works with the rear motor on the Model 3. I was on track last week and had a 'moment' in a corner where I was essentially on what you'd call a trailing throttle in an ICE car and the back came around very fast and unexpectedly. I've had that a few times at lower speed in the wet too. If you are not on the throttle and some regen kicks in the rear can become unsettled very quickly. This week I'm planning to do some testing with track mode to narrow down when/how this is happening and if there is a combination of settings to stop it.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Story was told that Elon was in Germany for an event. One of the drivers there complained that the demo Tesla was not up to the task of ultra high speed cruising with it goverened to about 120 mph. Elon hooked up a computer, tapped on a few buttons, and the speed limiter was raised way up. Evidently the drivers jaw dropped that something like that could be done so easily. It might also have been done via OTA update with the VIN.
Imaging that when Tesla starts production in Germany that it will have a higher speed Autobahn setting option.
Currenty US produced cars, for the American market are tuned for our roads. Mostly very competent up to 80-90 mph, but not optimized for running at highly illegal speeds.
My X cruises amazingly well and solid at extra legal speeds and around high speed sweepers. The latest Raven adaptable suspension seems to have made most of that difference.
Imaging that when Tesla starts production in Germany that it will have a higher speed Autobahn setting option.
Currenty US produced cars, for the American market are tuned for our roads. Mostly very competent up to 80-90 mph, but not optimized for running at highly illegal speeds.
My X cruises amazingly well and solid at extra legal speeds and around high speed sweepers. The latest Raven adaptable suspension seems to have made most of that difference.
I've been testing on an airfield today and it's clear if you have 75-100% regen in track mode, you're going to get lift-off oversteer maybe when you don't want it and if you dial down the stability assist it can make the car a bit unpredictable in fast corners.
My new track settings are 25/75 balance, -10 stability and 50% regen. Yes, you will probably need better brakes if you run less than 80% regen, but I feel too much regen makes the car too tail happy when you're off the throttle in a bend. There could be that one time when something unexpected happens in front of you and you have to lift mid-corner. It's worth thinking about.
If you run lots of stability assist then maybe it won't be an issue to you, but for me the SA needs to be off to go quickly and help rotate the car when you need it to.
Just my 5c.
My new track settings are 25/75 balance, -10 stability and 50% regen. Yes, you will probably need better brakes if you run less than 80% regen, but I feel too much regen makes the car too tail happy when you're off the throttle in a bend. There could be that one time when something unexpected happens in front of you and you have to lift mid-corner. It's worth thinking about.
If you run lots of stability assist then maybe it won't be an issue to you, but for me the SA needs to be off to go quickly and help rotate the car when you need it to.
Just my 5c.
MasterC17
Active Member
Interesting, I'm running 50/50, -8 Stability, and 100% regen and I haven't noticed any lift-off oversteer to speak of.
Can you share the complete setup of your car?
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Unusual to see fit-off oversteer on dual motor Tesla Models, as it applies to all 4 wheels. Should not induce rotation, be be similar to applying all 4 brakes slightly.
I haven't noticed any liftoff oversteer either. I also wouldn't run 25/75 because you're just removing usable power from the car and slowing it down in that scenario. I stick with 50/50 and it's very balanced.
I also don't know where this story of Elon personally plugging a computer into a Model 3 to raise the top speed came from, but it doesn't sound plausible for many reasons, the most notable being the P3D is limited to 165mph (265kph), not 120mph. Also, most any modern ICE cars with a governor can have it changed easily via software, that's not unique to Tesla. In the case of the Model 3, the top speed is the motor rpm limit of 19000rpm at 165mph.
I also don't know where this story of Elon personally plugging a computer into a Model 3 to raise the top speed came from, but it doesn't sound plausible for many reasons, the most notable being the P3D is limited to 165mph (265kph), not 120mph. Also, most any modern ICE cars with a governor can have it changed easily via software, that's not unique to Tesla. In the case of the Model 3, the top speed is the motor rpm limit of 19000rpm at 165mph.
That was another example of what I'm describing from earlier in the thread.
There's a danger here we'll get into finger pointing about how different alignment settings and/or suspension choices have led to this characteristic, but I'm quite sure it's inherent and caused by regen.
If you aren't experiencing it your setup, then that's great and I'm not saying reducing the regen is the only way to cure a handling imbalance. I'm posting my findings for anyone who is experiencing it and might want to try reducing regen to alleviate it.
Over a lap, 50/50 balance may be faster than 25/75 I realise, but even at 50/50, there is a tendancy for the rear to over-rotate at speed when regen kicks in. At least that's what I feel.
Zcd1
Active Member
With all due respect and no finger pointing intended, it sounds like you may simply need to spend more time learning the way the car responds in different scenarios.
I mean, how many of us have previously tracked a car with user-adjustable regenerative braking???
If you brake (or regen) while taking a high speed turn on a fairly balanced car you're almost certainly going to have some oversteer from the weight transfer robbing you of rear end grip. I think the "problem" (if you want to call it that) is that many people are not expecting to have that effect on the car's balance when lifting off the throttle. It's definitely something that takes some getting used to OR you can simply change the settings to make it less of an impact.
Not really an issue on slow/mid speed turns since you're already on the brakes before turn in, but for high speed turns you definitely need to be careful if feathering the throttle.
Again, the guy behind in the BMW had already stopped and we made eye contact. Don't really want to sit at the end of a dust cloud on the racing line when i know i have an opening to move.
Not really an issue on slow/mid speed turns since you're already on the brakes before turn in, but for high speed turns you definitely need to be careful if feathering the throttle.
Again, the guy behind in the BMW had already stopped and we made eye contact. Don't really want to sit at the end of a dust cloud on the racing line when i know i have an opening to move.
Er, that's what I spent the best part of a day doing yesterday.
If others on here have done the same thing, please post your findings so we can compare.
MasterC17
Active Member
I would still be interested in the full setup of your car.
VIR has some high speed turns (back straight esses 100mph+, Turn 10 sharp 90mph corner, Turn 14, Turn 17) and I haven't noticed the liftoff oversteer you are describing. I didn't notice it at Lime Rock either coming on to the front straight at 100mph.
There was also speculation that Track Mode improved to resolve this issue since the video from @kbecks13 in question (that was from late 2018).
All I am saying is perhaps there is an issue with your setup that we could help you fix (unrelated to Track Mode), that would solve this problem? What are your alignment specs?
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