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Swapping is Coming [Discuss how it will be accomplished]

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I agree the energy usage are the same for SuperSwappers and SuperChargers. But you can't support 2 million cars via either 100 SuperChargers or 100 SuperSwappers. The scale is way-way off.

2 million cars charging 15 times per year == 30 million charges. Let's say 40% is during the week, and 60% during weekend (Elon thinks it's much more that that in the weekend), but let's just say 30% during Friday and 30% during Sunday.

That means on Sunday there will be 30% of 30million / 52 weeks / 100 locations == 1730 swaps/charges per location on Sundays. Let's ignore where you're going to get 70 MWh of power from for a second and just look at car throughput:

The largest layout I've heard of is 10 chargers at 1 location. That means over a 12 hour period, every car can park/connect/charge/disconnect/leave only for a 4 minute cycle. That's not enough. You need 5 times that capacity just for absolute minimum usage. Even that further assumes a perfectly even distribution of all cars over the 100 locations, with perfectly spaced arrival times.

Similarly, with a swapper, it would need to do it's thing in 24 seconds - which includes car arrival and departure time, payment time etc. And again, assumes perfectly even distribution, with perfectly evenly spaced arrival times.

100 locations for either Supercharging or SuperSwapping is off by 2 orders of magnitude.

Next, why would Tesla charge $4b dollars for access to a network, but then only spend $30m to build a vastly undersized network?

Next-to-last, Tesla committed to 200 locations already, so why are we even talking about 100?

Lastly, Elon told us already he wants to make the system solar positive by itself, which is doable with 12'000 locations (keep in mind this is worldwide), at a cost of $3.6b from $4b of revenue. There's no problem with the SuperCharger financials with a 166 vehicles per SuperCharger location ratio.

So now if you want to go and say, take some of these 12k 10-charger SuperCharger locations and change them to SuperSwappers instead, then sure, go ahead (and figure out where you're going to put the Solar Panels if you take those SuperCharger parking spots away). But 100 locations, whether it has 100 swappers or 1000 chargers, simply cannot service 2 million vehicles.

None of these numbers make any sense.

A swapper that does 144 swaps in a 12 hour period ( 5 minutes = 12 per hour ) needs to have some combination of chargers or batteries that allows for 144 over a 12 hour period. 144 batteries would work but 8 batteries and 8 superchargers does the trick - but both are expensive and add massively to the cost of your swapper. Also note that the continuous throughput of the 5 minute swapper can be matched by 8 supercharger stalls ( 120kWh recharging an 85kWh battery ). 8 supercharger stalls means you are paying for 8 parking spots instead of 8 extra batteries and the swapper.

Secondly 15 charges per year is 4000-6000 miles worth of driving. That means that the average car charges at the supercharger or swaps for 33%-50% of the miles driven. That is just unreasonable.

Lastly, Tesla will not have 2 million cars on the road any time before 2025. By 2025 I expect new Teslas to have more than 250 miles of range and nobody will worry about swapping or supercharging.
 
I agree the energy usage are the same for SuperSwappers and SuperChargers. But you can't support 2 million cars via either 100 SuperChargers or 100 SuperSwappers. The scale is way-way off.

2 million cars charging 15 times per year == 30 million charges. Let's say 40% is during the week, and 60% during weekend (Elon thinks it's much more that that in the weekend), but let's just say 30% during Friday and 30% during Sunday.

That means on Sunday there will be 30% of 30million / 52 weeks / 100 locations == 1730 swaps/charges per location on Sundays. Let's ignore where you're going to get 70 MWh of power from for a second and just look at car throughput:

The largest layout I've heard of is 10 chargers at 1 location. That means over a 12 hour period, every car can park/connect/charge/disconnect/leave only for a 4 minute cycle. That's not enough. You need 5 times that capacity just for absolute minimum usage. Even that further assumes a perfectly even distribution of all cars over the 100 locations, with perfectly spaced arrival times.

Similarly, with a swapper, it would need to do it's thing in 24 seconds - which includes car arrival and departure time, payment time etc. And again, assumes perfectly even distribution, with perfectly evenly spaced arrival times.

100 locations for either Supercharging or SuperSwapping is off by 2 orders of magnitude.

Next, why would Tesla charge $4b dollars for access to a network, but then only spend $30m to build a vastly undersized network?

Next-to-last, Tesla committed to 200 locations already, so why are we even talking about 100?

Lastly, Elon told us already he wants to make the system solar positive by itself, which is doable with 12'000 locations (keep in mind this is worldwide), at a cost of $3.6b from $4b of revenue. There's no problem with the SuperCharger financials with a 166 vehicles per SuperCharger location ratio.

So now if you want to go and say, take some of these 12k 10-charger SuperCharger locations and change them to SuperSwappers instead, then sure, go ahead (and figure out where you're going to put the Solar Panels if you take those SuperCharger parking spots away). But 100 locations, whether it has 100 swappers or 1000 chargers, simply cannot service 2 million vehicles.

Why are you arbitrarily limiting the number of charging stalls at a location? Grid issues aside, 30 or 40 parking spaces is not a radically high number. You only get multi-acre parking lots when you have to support 10's of millions of cars.

I don't see how it makes much difference at all whether you spread this out or group it together. The only justification I can see is the grid issues. But those issues are always mitigated if you have sufficient storage on site. Instead of having to have grid capacity to support peak loads, you just need enough to support average loads for a peak season (or year with enough storage).

I've argued that the CapEx for SuperChargers or SuperSwappers is virtually identical in terms of potential throughput. We both seem to agree that the CES requirements are the same.

However, I'd also argue that both CES and Swapping lend themselves very well to centralization, while SuperCharging is more agnostic until you look a couple of decades ahead.

A quickie calculation shows that my house, which is a two story, 3,000sq ft structure can store almost 1,000 batteries if you use the attic, and assume your racks give 8 inches of space for the 4 inch battery. That's 85mWh of storage in my house. Attach a swapper to my house and the one next door and its 2,000 batteries and a high swap throughput, heavy duty CES facility. Make it 4 houses to give yourself plenty of room to move batteries around.

That's what it looks like in 2025. Right now it's just the swapper and a mostly empty house that won't fill up with batteries for a while. That's a scalable solution. If you don't agree that it can support 2 million cars once you scale up to 4 full houses, then fine, call it 500,000 cars. If the completed swap station is $1.5m, and the batteries are $20,000,000, that works out to $300 for the swapper, and $4,000 for the batteries per car.

But again, we expect to make some money doing CES, and additional money doing swaps. Using your 15 swaps per year assumption, and my $20/swap fee, that works out to $150m/year in revenue just from swaps. So charging the CapEx to the cars is not the way to look at this. Ideally the network is profitable as a business instead of being a charge on the car.

In contrast, the SuperChargers require the same CES and grid capacity, more land area, less maintence and maybe less CapEx. And their only revenue source is the CES business.
 
You have a Tesla with a 400 mile range?? Do tell...

The common charge range would be 150 miles. Times 15 = 2250 miles / year. Which is 15% of miles driven - in line with the highway statistics for miles driven on trips > 100 miles.

You leave the house with a full charge. You drive 300 miles. You stop and supercharge somewhere between the 150 and 250 mile mark. Your 1 supercharge has taken you 300 miles.
That's at the low end. Your 1 supercharge could also be at the 250 mile mark and take you another 250 miles - and then your 1 supercharge takes you 500 miles, but that's cutting it close.
I think 300 miles for a supercharge is very conservative.
Any trip under 200 or 250 miles doesn't need a supercharge at all. How many of the trips over 100 miles are under 250? Probably most of them.

edit:
Following through on the calculations: I bet that 100-200 mile drives are twice as common as 200+ mile drives. 7 150 mile drives and 4 300 mile drives adds up to 2250 miles. Those 4 300 mile drives each require a supercharger stop, but a short one that needs as little as 50 miles of additional range ( for the 85kWh car ). It only takes 7 or 8 minutes to add 50 miles of range.
Therefore our average driver in this scenario would need 4 supercharger stops per year of less than 15 minutes each ( longer for the 60kWh car )
 
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Why are you arbitrarily limiting the number of charging stalls at a location? Grid issues aside, 30 or 40 parking spaces is not a radically high number.

It's fine to divide them up. You can make them e.g. 4 times bigger and then have only 3000 instead of 12000. I was already at 40 parking spaces (10 chargers where each charger is now 4 spaces). So if you use 40 chargers, you need 160 parking spots.



That's what it looks like in 2025. Right now it's just the swapper and a mostly empty house that won't fill up with batteries for a while. That's a scalable solution. If you don't agree that it can support 2 million cars once you scale up to 4 full houses, then fine, call it 500,000 cars. If the completed swap station is $1.5m, and the batteries are $20,000,000, that works out to $300 for the swapper, and $4,000 for the batteries per car.

But again, we expect to make some money doing CES, and additional money doing swaps. Using your 15 swaps per year assumption, and my $20/swap fee, that works out to $150m/year in revenue just from swaps.

Can you show the whole calculation?

How many battery swapping locations in that calculation? With how many battery swapping bays each? What is the average peak car count per day at one of the swapper bays (and how do you arrive at that)?
 
I agree the energy usage are the same for SuperSwappers and SuperChargers. But you can't support 2 million cars via either 100 SuperChargers or 100 SuperSwappers. The scale is way-way off.

2 million cars charging 15 times per year == 30 million charges. Let's say 40% is during the week, and 60% during weekend (Elon thinks it's much more that that in the weekend), but let's just say 30% during Friday and 30% during Sunday.

That means on Sunday there will be 30% of 30million / 52 weeks / 100 locations == 1730 swaps/charges per location on Sundays. Let's ignore where you're going to get 70 MWh of power from for a second and just look at car throughput:

The largest layout I've heard of is 10 chargers at 1 location. That means over a 12 hour period, every car can park/connect/charge/disconnect/leave only for a 4 minute cycle. That's not enough. You need 5 times that capacity just for absolute minimum usage. Even that further assumes a perfectly even distribution of all cars over the 100 locations, with perfectly spaced arrival times.

Similarly, with a swapper, it would need to do it's thing in 24 seconds - which includes car arrival and departure time, payment time etc. And again, assumes perfectly even distribution, with perfectly evenly spaced arrival times.

100 locations for either Supercharging or SuperSwapping is off by 2 orders of magnitude.

2 orders of magnitude off would be 10,000. 1 order of magnitude at worst, which by your numbers would give 4 minutes per swap (240 seconds), which is more than enough. Even if you have 4 times as many stops (600 mile range between fills) it's really only the duration of the actual fill-up/swap that matters.

However, I think a 24 second swap would be technically feasible, because the only mutex is on the removal and the installation and the rest can happen in parallel. However, the faster you swap, the more batteries you need to have ready to be able to keep the speed up. Realistically, the solution would be slower than that.

Oh, payment shouldn't take any time. You wouldn't be using a credit card there. It'd all be pre-pay. Point of sale means losing more in transaction fees to another merchant.

Next-to-last, Tesla committed to 200 locations already, so why are we even talking about 100?

Because you only need swappers in congested locations? But, I would suggest at least 2 swappers per installation in order to deal with breakdown.

Lastly, Elon told us already he wants to make the system solar positive by itself, which is doable with 12'000 locations (keep in mind this is worldwide), at a cost of $3.6b from $4b of revenue. There's no problem with the SuperCharger financials with a 166 vehicles per SuperCharger location ratio.

So now if you want to go and say, take some of these 12k 10-charger SuperCharger locations and change them to SuperSwappers instead, then sure, go ahead (and figure out where you're going to put the Solar Panels if you take those SuperCharger parking spots away). But 100 locations, whether it has 100 swappers or 1000 chargers, simply cannot service 2 million vehicles.

The location of the solar panels isn't a problem. They can go wherever you can make the most money. The aim is to ensure the whole grid is offset so that up-front payments by customers can finance the network. But even if you have swap stations instead of chargers, Tesla could get agreement to have SolarCity-managed solar carports at nearby locations in rest areas. In warm climates there's a lot of synergistic potential for solar carports in parking lots and what business in a hot location would turn down an offer of free or cheap shading when it would not only keep their customers' cars cool but cool the surface of the parking lot, helping the surface last longer and as an additional bonus, reducing the heat island effect and lowering the cost of cooling their building.
 
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Richkae. I agree.

Richkae has a Roadster and we both have experience with the 240 volt / 70 amp (approx. 17 kw) charging speed of the HPC. If 17 kw were the maximum power available on the highway at a stopping point, then I would agree that a business case exists for battery swaps. Nobody is going to wait 2 hours to recharge at 17 kw, then drive 2 hours to the next stop where you would recharge for another 2 hours. That system fails based on time delay and then battery swaps make sense if the price is reasonable.

However a Supercharger at 120 kw (which is a relatively new option) completely destroys the business case for battery swaps. The problem is solved already.

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No, I am fairly sure the feeling was contempt and disgust at even the concept of Tesla pissing away that kind of money.
Watching how Better Place burned through $800 million is all you need to know about this dumbass idea.

And I am completely serious about my plans if they announce June 20th that they are spending significant CAPEX on battery swap stations. I will cancel my Model S order and short the stock. Battery swaps are an obsolete concept. My admiration for Elon Musk will drop dramatically. Owning a car from a new company like Tesla is already a bit of a risk. If they add battery swap expenses on top of the current risk model, that would be silly to own the car or the stock at this time. I will wait a few years and see how it plays out. I will just reverse the charges on my $2,500 deposit.

That having been said, I think the most likely June 20th announcement is just a demo that they can do battery swaps in about a minute. They will announce that they have no plans to rollout swap stations because there doesn't seem to be a business case for it. But if in the future there is customer demand, they may reconsider. I think at most they might build one single test swap station somewhere between San Francisco and Los Angeles (near Harris Ranch) to determine if customers have any interest at all in this scheme.

With this view, how do you reconcile this statement in the March 31, 2013 10Q?

Other factors that may influence the adoption of alternative fuel vehicles, and specifically electric vehicles, include:
[...]
• our capability to rapidly swap out the Model S battery pack and the development of specialized public facilities to perform such swapping, which do not currently exist but which we plan to introduce in the near future;
 
2 orders of magnitude off would be 10,000. 1 order of magnitude at worst, which by your numbers would give 4 minutes per swap (240 seconds), which is more than enough. Even if you have 4 times as many stops (600 mile range between fills) it's really only the duration of the actual fill-up/swap that matters.

However, I think a 24 second swap would be technically feasible, because the only mutex is on the removal and the installation and the rest can happen in parallel. However, the faster you swap, the more batteries you need to have ready to be able to keep the speed up. Realistically, the solution would be slower than that.

1 order of magnitude to get the 24 second swap time to 240 seconds. The other order of magnitude is because you can't design a system that requires people to show up over a perfectly spaced geographical area over a perfectly spaced time period. Case and point - how many times have you been the only car at a 8 or 12 car gas station? Swappers are much worse since the usage scenario is heavily skewed towards all peak usage falling on 2 days of the week only. (Assuming the roadtrip scenario and not the CitySwapper scenario.)

You need to overplan by about about 10 to 1 in order to satisfy peak usage as well as geographic distribution.

Agreed that you should have a slower system in order to need less batteries on standby. I think 4 minutes is ok.
 
With this view, how do you reconcile this statement in the March 31, 2013 10Q?
Other factors that may influence the adoption of alternative fuel vehicles, and specifically electric vehicles, include:
[...]
• our capability to rapidly swap out the Model S battery pack and the development of specialized public facilities to perform such swapping, which do not currently exist but which we plan to introduce in the near future;

I call that lack of a business plan for battery swapping. The economics fail and Tesla will discard it due to lack of customer demand. In the words Elon has used in the past, "It's not a compelling product" then he cancels it.

I think it is obvious from the comments here that many people would just use the free Supercharger. Richkae made some good points about many long trips just needing 5-10 minutes on a Supercharger to finish a 300-350 mile trip.
The 120 kw Supercharger just destroyed 95% of the business case for any swap stations at all. Nobody in their right mind would spend any significant money on an obsolete technology. The 120 kw Supercharger made the battery swap concept obsolete.

Nobody in their right mind would pay anything extra for battery swaps, so it needs to be free to have any chance of competing with a 120 kw Supercharger.
 
There's still the heavy use case. If you're driving along on the autobahn at 100 mph, with a heavily load car and running the AC, the realistic range for a Model S is more like 100 miles. That means that using SC, you need to charge for 20 minutes every 30 minutes.

If you want a US example, if you're driving along at 80 mph (slightly above the 75 mph speed limit), with a fully loaded car and running the AC, your range will be more in the area of 150 miles. That means that you'd have to stop for 20 minutes every 55 minutes. A 1000 mile trip would need twelve 20 minute stops. A trip that could be done in 12.5 hours would take about 16.5 hours.
 
And even before swapping is free, it must be available where one might need it.

Still not one proponent addressed this the accessibility problem. Everyone silently assume BS will be available 'everywhere' one might need it. That certainly cannot be the case. The law of limited resources aka economy...

How many superchargers are out there today? 6?
After heavily increased rollout there should will be ~200 in whole USA. What about the rest of the world? I hear there will be a few in Norway, no words on other parts of Europe, or World. What about Australians?

From corporate standpoint the way to success leads through maximizing profit/cost. One who does not do it, leaves empty space for others to do it.

How many Europeans will buy a Tesla because there are some swapping stations in USA? How many Japanese? Not one in their right mind.
As long a BS station costs more than a supercharger it is a shoot in Tesla's own foot. They are not maximizing the usefulness of money spent on "fast charging".

Instead of one BS station they should build 2 or more different SC locations, it will be useful to much more people and cost the same money.
 
And even before swapping is free, it must be available where one might need it.

Still not one proponent addressed this the accessibility problem. Everyone silently assume BS will be available 'everywhere' one might need it. That certainly cannot be the case. The law of limited resources aka economy...
It isn't so easy to say where it will become available. That depends entirely on the model selected by Tesla. I would hope it would involve longer range batteries, in which case it would be smart to have swapping at major cities, so that people with a 60 kWh pack could get a 150 kWh (?) pack for the weekend, and along the roads with the highest speed limits (that are frequently travelled).

After heavily increased rollout there should will be ~200 in whole USA. What about the rest of the world? I hear there will be a few in Norway, no words on other parts of Europe, or World. What about Australians?
We've been told it will be possible to drive from Trondheim, Norway to Rome, Italy by next summer. A rollout is coming. My guess is that over time it will be global.
 
There's still the heavy use case. If you're driving along on the autobahn at 100 mph, with a heavily load car and running the AC, the realistic range for a Model S is more like 100 miles. That means that using SC, you need to charge for 20 minutes every 30 minutes.

That scenario is broken regardless, even with battery swappers. People won't want to pull over every 30 minutes for abattery swap either, regardless of how long it takes. It also would mean you need a battery swapper every 50 miles on the highways.
 
That scenario is broken regardless, even with battery swappers. People won't want to pull over every 30 minutes for abattery swap either, regardless of how long it takes. It also would mean you need a battery swapper every 50 miles on the highways.

But that scenario is feasible in Germany, where everybody drives at constant 150 mph...
 
But that scenario is feasible in Germany, where everybody drives at constant 150 mph...

And in Africa you drive sometimes over 1000 miles without a gas station in sight, never mind a charger. And regularly drive through 3 feet of standing water. And the Model S also doesn't come with a ballistic protection option like the BMW 7 Series High Security.

Just because a scenario exist doesn't mean you have to use a Model S for it.
 
However, I think a 24 second swap would be technically feasible, because the only mutex is on the removal and the installation and the rest can happen in parallel. However, the faster you swap, the more batteries you need to have ready to be able to keep the speed up. Realistically, the solution would be slower than that.

24 seconds is a pipe dream. It will never happen. Here are some steps that will severely limit your battery swap time. I think 2 minutes is a pretty good estimate for a fast time. I am not saying it can't be done faster than 2 minutes, but in a real world scenario it isn't going to happen.

Driver parks the car/drives into bay. This alone is going to take 5-10 seconds.
Jig comes out of floor and unscrews bolts. Probably take about 10-30 seconds. Depending on how accessible the bolts are.
~1000 pound battery is lowered from the vehicle and then moved out of the way. Takes about 10-30 seconds.
new ~1000 pound battery is moved below the car and raised into position. Another 10-30 seconds.
Bolts are inserted and screwed in. Takes about 15-45 seconds. (starting bolts in much harder than taking them out)
Car performs some diagnostic checks (5-120 seconds).
Driver pulls out after swap is complete. 5-30 seconds).

Even if you take my minimum numbers (which are very low) you end up with a minute swap. If the battery had a quick clamp attachment mechanism you could probably cut out 20 seconds or more. And I personally wouldn't want only a 5 second diagnostics check when I replaced a structural and integral portion of my vehicle.
 
And in Africa you drive sometimes over 1000 miles without a gas station in sight, never mind a charger. And regularly drive through 3 feet of standing water. And the Model S also doesn't come with a ballistic protection option like the BMW 7 Series High Security.

Just because a scenario exist doesn't mean you have to use a Model S for it.
So why not get a Leaf? Just because a scenario where you need to drive further than 70 miles exists doesn't mean you have to use a Leaf for it...

The issue is that people in Germany would be quick to choose a BMW M5 or something when it takes an hour longer with a Model S to visit some relative or other. If the goal is to make electric cars better than their competitors, the superchargers go a long way to do that, but they are not all the way there.

If Tesla comes with a 150 kWh lithium-air battery and 5 minute battery swapping, BMW is toast, even in places like Germany. This would mean needing to stop for 5 minutes 5 times to travel 1000 miles at 100 mph. It will finally bury the range anxiety argument.